There are a lot of hopelessly optimistic AMD shills, but...

[Ottonomous]

The Intel ones have a more peculiar pscyhology
- incremental architectural enhancements are highly welcome if still competitive
- exhorbitant prices are features of luxury
- bad OC temps was you failing to delid or sand the sTIM, or RMA your unlucky chip
- the 8400 represents immense value even at current prices
- lack of a cooler or stock cooler is because consumers shouldn't be stupid
- server success reflects nicely upon me as an Intel enthusiast
- the OEM exclusivity payments are deflection attempts and not genuine arguments against policy
- the prices stink but Intel should get away with them for marginally better performance

Why, anger with the hyperoptimism and senseless antagonism of some AMD fans, or the genuine belief that the mighty should conquer absolutely,

Admitted troll thread.
admin allisolm

 

[Hans Gruber]

Because Intel has been gouging on price for years. AMD had junk CPU's for 10 years until Ryzen. The customer is always right.

 

[Ottonomous]

Because Intel has been gouging on price for years. AMD had junk CPU's for 10 years until Ryzen. The customer is always right.

That suggests that AMD fans are only value inclined, and Intel the opposite, out of partisanship. That the consumer approach to evaluating processors should be one or the other
Edit-jumbled

 

[brianmanahan]

i don't get why anyone would have brand loyalty to a freaking CPU

for 20 years i've bought whatever has the best performance/price ratio for the price i'm willing to spend

 

[Ottonomous]

i don't get why anyone would have brand loyalty to a freaking CPU

for 20 years i've bought whatever has the best performance/price ratio for the price i'm willing to spend

Some people count having ultimate mainstream performance, even if 12-20% better to be a buying reason. For some, its also the luxury of spending money and ownership, i.e. ES330 Lexus over a Camry to distinguish themselves

For others previous debates leave a bad taste and reaffirming they made the right choice through a flagship purchase helps. It seems petty this thread but I am starting to think there are dedicated shills for the big 3 here. People who without factual information will make claims of superiority regardless of what's presented to them

 

[darkswordsman17]

OP....wat?

i don't get why anyone would have brand loyalty to a freaking CPU

for 20 years i've bought whatever has the best performance/price ratio for the price i'm willing to spend

Some people work for the companies so its literally their livelihood. Well and companies do pay people to promote their shit, so they're being compensated for it (these people aren't direct employees typically though).

 

[Ottonomous]

OP....wat?



Some people work for the companies so its literally their livelihood. Well and companies do pay people to promote their shit, so they're being compensated for it (these people aren't direct employees typically though).

Sorry for lack of clarification. Its mainly why people are invested in the financial success of a company rather than consumer benefit? I've twice been told that Intel and nvidia commanding a price premium for relatively less advantage is a sign of success

 

[DigDog]

Some people count having ultimate mainstream performance, even if 12-20% better to be a buying reason. For some, its also the luxury of spending money and ownership, i.e. ES330 Lexus over a Camry to distinguish themselves

For others previous debates leave a bad taste and reaffirming they made the right choice through a flagship purchase helps. It seems petty this thread but I am starting to think there are dedicated shills for the big 3 here. People who without factual information will make claims of superiority regardless of what's presented to them

1. A 20% lead is enormous.
2. Luxury brands in cars are a thing; people see you drive them.
3. Implying AT has a lack of FACTS when we're drowning in benchmarks.

Everybody knew that pre-Core AMD were better than Intel. Fanboyism only existed as pro-AMD after the Core era despite the benchmarks, and even then it was backed by an anti-monopoly sentiment and a few who were emotionally attached to this tiny new company beating an industry giant at their own game.

Ignoring the various manipulations, benchmarks do not lie; If a chip is superior to another, this is generally obvious. There can be other reasons to go with a different product, from cost, to support, to the product being particularly suited to a specific need. Plus market opacity, availability, familiarity with a platform, or simple chance. Or maybe you wanted to try it for yourself.

Intel isn't striving to keep its prices down. Neither does Nvidia, but driver quality is a thing, so is Shadowplay, and so on. There's reasons why someone would pick a product or another and AT of all places is where we get the most information.

Jeez, try reading Toms' questions section if you want completely made-up advice.

 

[Ottonomous]

1. A 20% lead is enormous.
2. Luxury brands in cars are a thing; people see you drive them.
3. Implying AT has a lack of FACTS when we're drowning in benchmarks.

Everybody knew that pre-Core AMD were better than Intel. Fanboyism only existed as pro-AMD after the Core era despite the benchmarks, and even then it was backed by an anti-monopoly sentiment and a few who were emotionally attached to this tiny new company beating an industry giant at their own game.

Ignoring the various manipulations, benchmarks do not lie; If a chip is superior to another, this is generally obvious. There can be other reasons to go with a different product, from cost, to support, to the product being particularly suited to a specific need. Plus market opacity, availability, familiarity with a platform, or simple chance. Or maybe you wanted to try it for yourself.

Intel isn't striving to keep its prices down. Neither does Nvidia, but driver quality is a thing, so is Shadowplay, and so on. There's reasons why someone would pick a product or another and AT of all places is where we get the most information.

Jeez, try reading Toms' questions section if you want completely made-up advice.

So if Intel priced it say 600 dollars (like its floating about right now) you'd naturally assume its worth every penny out of those criteria, then why does the 2990WX not command a premium over the 7980XE with absolute confidence in its superiority in MT scenarios? Very weak and recycled arguments, but at least it shows a double standard towards Intel halo products

 

[Ottonomous]

This is the current era's new fashion, Apple, nvidia, samsung, if its the best, even marginally, then literally take my money as a consumer. Sounds childish and myopic, there is a powerful argument for even the 8700/9700K over this late arrival of Coffee-lake

Edit: What happened to the time where cost-effectiveness/pricing factored into the evaluation of the flagship?

 

[brianmanahan]

This is the current era's new fashion, Apple, nvidia, samsung, if its the best, even marginally, then literally take my money as a consumer.

apple fanboyism has been around for a long time. almost 20 year ago i worked at a company where the CEO was a diehard apple fanboy. he insisted on only using apple PCs (in my case a crappy OS9 imac that locked up every couple days), so all desktop and enterprise software had to work on macs. this made finding software that would work very challenging when vmware wasn't really a thing yet and most software had to be installed on each client machine.

i like my macbook for certain things like video and audio production, but defending apple at all costs is certainly no hill i would die on.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

1. A 20% lead is enormous.
2. Luxury brands in cars are a thing; people see you drive them.
3. Implying AT has a lack of FACTS when we're drowning in benchmarks.

Everybody knew that pre-Core AMD were better than Intel. Fanboyism only existed as pro-AMD after the Core era despite the benchmarks, and even then it was backed by an anti-monopoly sentiment and a few who were emotionally attached to this tiny new company beating an industry giant at their own game.

Ignoring the various manipulations, benchmarks do not lie; If a chip is superior to another, this is generally obvious. There can be other reasons to go with a different product, from cost, to support, to the product being particularly suited to a specific need. Plus market opacity, availability, familiarity with a platform, or simple chance. Or maybe you wanted to try it for yourself.

Intel isn't striving to keep its prices down. Neither does Nvidia, but driver quality is a thing, so is Shadowplay, and so on. There's reasons why someone would pick a product or another and AT of all places is where we get the most information.

Jeez, try reading Toms' questions section if you want completely made-up advice.

AT (since this is where some of us call e-home) is also where we get the most misinformation and disinformation. We have some serious shills, fanboys, and investors here, that will do some impressive mental gymnastics in an effort to spin anything these companies do in a good light. Or resort to whataboutism, or out right bullcrap to obfuscate their anti consumer behavior. And I for one will never ignore the various manipulations of benchmarks, because as with all statistical analysis, they are far too easy to make reflect whatever agenda you have. From the most inane examples like making a 10 percent gain seem huge in a chart. Or the crap Principled Technologies just pulled on behalf of Intel. And they are far from the only ones that have goofed methodology in a manner that benefits a particular company at a crucial point in that product v. a competing products effective life cycle. Even the benchmarks they choose, and how they interpret the results for readers/viewers is propaganda at its worst. Often they will gloss over game play issues and try to beat you over the head with those benchmarks that lie through omission if nothing else.

Driver quality from both AMD and Nvidia are excellent, and both suffer issues with a particular release at any given time. The Nvidia drivers and software are better, at least for gamers, is an old troll talking point, and should be abandoned by reasonable enthusiast. I assert that, because one has to really nitpick and inflate the importance of a feature in order to beat that drum. Particularly when looking at the PC gaming market as a whole and not some niche group. Shadow play is indeed a thing, and so is Relive, and both have issues depending on the driver release and particular PC in question. While others have a great experience with both. Making that whole statement extremely biased from my perspective.

 

[DigDog]

So if Intel priced it say 600 dollars (like its floating about right now) you'd naturally assume its worth every penny out of those criteria, then why does the 2990WX not command a premium over the 7980XE with absolute confidence in its superiority in MT scenarios? Very weak and recycled arguments, but at least it shows a double standard towards Intel halo products

Sorry to burst your bubble of ignorance but putting moar coars on a die is not the equivalent of reaching 5ghz. To put it in potato-language, you are saying "if Ferrari makes expensive cars, why isn't this Iveco truck more expensive".

Technology that pushes the envelope will *always* be more expensive - no matter who designs it. There are no magical solutions, but rather if you make more expensive, harder to manufacture technology, this tends to perform better. Sure, design needs to be accounted for, but it's not like Intel or AMD engineers are "just trying things".

You need .... *should* stop thinking about the "commends a premium" phrase. Crappy pseudo-luxury brands like D&G "commend a premium". Products by well established industrial brands are costed by factoring in R&D, marketing, administration, and future projections. If an Intel product costs $600, it's not because it's Intel's, but because bringing that product with those specs to market, that year, needs to cost that much. You cant trade without profit, mmmk?

Again, design needs to be accounted for, so there can be some variables on how much product you get for a dollar, but that depends on each individual products, with both AMD and Intel at time underperforming or overperforming.

 

[Ottonomous]

Sorry to burst your bubble of ignorance but putting moar coars on a die is not the equivalent of reaching 5ghz. To put it in potato-language, you are saying "if Ferrari makes expensive cars, why isn't this Iveco truck more expensive".

Technology that pushes the envelope will *always* be more expensive - no matter who designs it. There are no magical solutions, but rather if you make more expensive, harder to manufacture technology, this tends to perform better. Sure, design needs to be accounted for, but it's not like Intel or AMD engineers are "just trying things".

You need .... *should* stop thinking about the "commends a premium" phrase. Crappy pseudo-luxury brands like D&G "commend a premium". Products by well established industrial brands are costed by factoring in R&D, marketing, administration, and future projections. If an Intel product costs $600, it's not because it's Intel's, but because bringing that product with those specs to market, that year, needs to cost that much. You cant trade without profit, mmmk?

Again, design needs to be accounted for, so there can be some variables on how much product you get for a dollar, but that depends on each individual products, with both AMD and Intel at time underperforming or overperforming.

So its worth every penny despite being on the same process, from the same microarchitecture and only 10% faster than its predecessor, where adding 2 cores is suddenly pushing the innovation envelope?

Come on

 

[Ottonomous]

If an Intel product costs $600, it's not because it's Intel's, but because bringing that product with those specs to market, that year, needs to cost that much. You cant trade without profit, mmmk?

Again, design needs to be accounted for, so there can be some variables on how much product you get for a dollar, but that depends on each individual products, with both AMD and Intel at time underperforming or overperforming.

Yes from the kings of product segmentation, are you high?

 

[DigDog]

AT (since this is where some of us call e-home) is also where we get the most misinformation and disinformation. We have some serious shills, fanboys, and investors here, that will do some impressive mental gymnastics in an effort to spin anything these companies do in a good light. Or resort to whataboutism, or out right bullcrap to obfuscate their anti consumer behavior. And I for one will never ignore the various manipulations of benchmarks, because as with all statistical analysis, they are far too easy to make reflect whatever agenda you have. From the most inane examples like making a 10 percent gain seem huge in a chart. Or the crap Principled Technologies just pulled on behalf of Intel. And they are far from the only ones that have goofed methodology in a manner that benefits a particular company at a crucial point in that product v. a competing products effective life cycle. Even the benchmarks they choose, and how they interpret the results for readers/viewers is propaganda at its worst. Often they will gloss over game play issues and try to beat you over the head with those benchmarks that lie through omission if nothing else.

Driver quality from both AMD and Nvidia are excellent, and both suffer issues with a particular release at any given time. The Nvidia drivers and software are better, at least for gamers, is an old troll talking point, and should be abandoned by reasonable enthusiast. I assert that, because one has to really nitpick and inflate the importance of a feature in order to beat that drum. Particularly when looking at the PC gaming market as a whole and not some niche group. Shadow play is indeed a thing, and so is Relive, and both have issues depending on the driver release and particular PC in question. While others have a great experience with both. Making that whole statement extremely biased from my perspective.

WE ??? get the most misinformation ??
Of all the various technology news-delivery and marketing channels, you feel that Anandtech has THE MOST misinformation?

Im just going to assume you got caught in a moment of hyperbole and didnt mean that.

As for the fact that everyone and their dogs try to manipulate benchmarks, you should be used to that AND acknowledge that those efforts only work with the uninformed - how long did it take for the Unprincipled Technology scam to be discovered?? 20 minutes?

Being shocked at that is like being shocked at discovering that drinking Duff Beer doesnt make you grow a six-pack.

I've been here almost daily since the C2D launch and i've rarely seen anyone push a brand over another (mostly ATi vs Nvidia) but when they did it was more because of stupidity rather than "having an agenda".

Matey, you can push your favourite brand all you want, if the benchmarks say it sucks, it sucks. And i have nothing contrary to marketibg&sales trying to do their job, but i need to ask you to show me what obvious instances you have of people PAID to lie about a product, here, and pretrnding to be just an enthusiast. How many do we have? Three? Four? Five maybe??

I dont feel that the efforts of the various players involved have compromised the dependability of the info i get from AT.

#changemymind

 

[Ottonomous]

WE ??? get the most misinformation ??
Of all the various technology news-delivery and marketing channels, you feel that Anandtech has THE MOST misinformation?

Im just going to assume you got caught in a moment of hyperbole and didnt mean that.

As for the fact that everyone and their dogs try to manipulate benchmarks, you should be used to that AND acknowledge that those efforts only work with the uninformed - how long did it take for the Unprincipled Technology scam to be discovered?? 20 minutes?

Being shocked at that is like being shocked at discovering that drinking Duff Beer doesnt make you grow a six-pack.

I've been here almost daily since the C2D launch and i've rarely seen anyone push a brand over another (mostly ATi vs Nvidia) but when they did it was more because of stupidity rather than "having an agenda".

Matey, you can push your favourite brand all you want, if the benchmarks say it sucks, it sucks. And i have nothing contrary to marketibg&sales trying to do their job, but i need to ask you to show me what obvious instances you have of people PAID to lie about a product, here, and pretrnding to be just an enthusiast. How many do we have? Three? Four? Five maybe??

I dont feel that the efforts of the various players involved have compromised the dependability of the info i get from AT.

#changemymind

Which is precisely why they were pushing it, depending on consumer ignorance after pushing a headline based (50%) on a single benchmark (Counter-Strike). Just because you've seen through it doesn't mean they shouldn't be held accountable for false advertising, unless of course you're one of the usual corporate apologists

 

[frozentundra123456]

So its worth every penny despite being on the same process, from the same microarchitecture and only 10% faster than its predecessor, where adding 2 cores is suddenly pushing the innovation envelope?

Come on

To some buyers, it is. To others, such as you, it obviously isnt. Although TBH I question if your sentiments are not more related to brand loyalty, ( the "AMD is good, Intel is evil" delusion) instead of value. Personally to me it is worth every penny to *not* buy an AMD product, as a simple reaction to all the pro-AMD rhetoric permeating these forums.

Edit: And before people accuse me, I do not (and never have) work for Intel or any associated company, and hold no financial interest in either Intel or AMD. I am simply sick of all the intel hating, AMD promoting by numerous posters in these forums.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

WE ??? get the most misinformation ??
Of all the various technology news-delivery and marketing channels, you feel that Anandtech has THE MOST misinformation?

Im just going to assume you got caught in a moment of hyperbole and didnt mean that.

As for the fact that everyone and their dogs try to manipulate benchmarks, you should be used to that AND acknowledge that those efforts only work with the uninformed - how long did it take for the Unprincipled Technology scam to be discovered?? 20 minutes?

Being shocked at that is like being shocked at discovering that drinking Duff Beer doesnt make you grow a six-pack.

I've been here almost daily since the C2D launch and i've rarely seen anyone push a brand over another (mostly ATi vs Nvidia) but when they did it was more because of stupidity rather than "having an agenda".

Matey, you can push your favourite brand all you want, if the benchmarks say it sucks, it sucks. And i have nothing contrary to marketibg&sales trying to do their job, but i need to ask you to show me what obvious instances you have of people PAID to lie about a product, here, and pretrnding to be just an enthusiast. How many do we have? Three? Four? Five maybe??

I dont feel that the efforts of the various players involved have compromised the dependability of the info i get from AT.

#changemymind

I am not going to engage in one of these debates where I have to type incessantly for hours in a futile attempt to make another member see things my way. I could write an ad hom laced diatribe, as so many here do, about how your first sentence fails to acknowledge my e home comment, perhaps because you did not understand it. I will conclude my communication with you in this thread by stating: I have established a reputation here since first joining (again my e-home). I am proud of it, and at this stage of my membership in this virtual community, allow it to speak for itself. I rarely take the bait, and do my best to conduct myself in a manner that reflects who I am IRL. I state my case and allow the readers to determine its degree of accuracy etc. for themselves. Nor will I attempt to convince you any of my opinions are more valid than your's; or furiously type away, embodying the meme "I can't come to bed now, someone on the internet is wrong!" Nope, I wrote some remarks based on nearly 2 decades of experience here, and I feel no need to defend them any further. And as I have always done, I will yield the floor to you, providing you with the last word. I will not respond to it, because as previously stated, what I wanted to impart, I did.

I am familiar with your posting history, and you are a value added part of these forums. In this particular instance, I think you are either lacking knowledge of these forums history on this topic, and failing to understand that my remarks are constrained solely to these forums because it is my e-home. That would explain the hyperbole comment, when it is not, but simple reflective of the events that have taken place here. And bear out everything I have stated.

You have a great weekend.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

To some buyers, it is. To others, such as you, it obviously isnt. Although TBH I question if your sentiments are not more related to brand loyalty, ( the "AMD is good, Intel is evil" delusion) instead of value. Personally to me it is worth every penny to *not* buy an AMD product, as a simple reaction to all the pro-AMD rhetoric permeating these forums.

Edit: And before people accuse me, I do not (and never have) work for Intel or any associated company, and hold no financial interest in either Intel or AMD. I am simply sick of all the intel hating, AMD promoting by numerous posters in these forums.

Yeah man, every regular tech forum member here knows your reputation. This is a truly water is wet post. Free advice, so take it or leave it, but your emotional investment does you a disservice. You are knowledgeable and intelligent, perhaps instead of using it as a weapon, it would serve you better to use it as a tool. Because who states something is as important as what is stated. And when you establish the type of rep you have here, many will discount your posts simply based on that, instead of the post's content. And that is a damned shame.

 

[Hans Gruber]

I want to point out that computer hardware, CPU's, GPU's, motherboards, cases, power supplies have gotten much better in the last 10 years. I would say that ram has not improved simply because during the DDR1 and DDR2 days you could achieve monster OC's with ram. I would say that Intel has greatly decreased their OCing ability by basically releasing Oc'd CPU's that turbo to close to a maximum manual OC. I still have a Q6600 that can run @ 3.6ghz, stock is 2.4ghz. It was OC'd with a 120mm thermalright Ultra 120 for 6 years. I only had to increase the voltage a bit in years 4 and 5.

If you all remember intel delayed skylake 6 months simply because at the time AMD had nothing. I say this still using an Intel i5 as my main CPU. Not a fanboy of anything.

 

[NoTine42]

I want to point out that computer hardware, CPU's, GPU's, motherboards, cases, power supplies have gotten much better in the last 10 years. I would say that ram has not improved simply because during the DDR1 and DDR2 days you could achieve monster OC's with ram. I would say that Intel has greatly decreased their OCing ability by basically releasing Oc'd CPU's that turbo to close to a maximum manual OC. I still have a Q6600 that can run @ 3.6ghz, stock is 2.4ghz. It was OC'd with a 120mm thermalright Ultra 120 for 6 years. I only had to increase the voltage a bit in years 4 and 5.

If you all remember intel delayed skylake 6 months simply because at the time AMD had nothing. I say this still using an Intel i5 as my main CPU. Not a fanboy of anything.

Speaking of RAM, I wonder if we would be running some form of RAMBUS RDRAM if it weren’t for the old AMD v Intel Wars.

 

[frozentundra123456]

I want to point out that computer hardware, CPU's, GPU's, motherboards, cases, power supplies have gotten much better in the last 10 years. I would say that ram has not improved simply because during the DDR1 and DDR2 days you could achieve monster OC's with ram. I would say that Intel has greatly decreased their OCing ability by basically releasing Oc'd CPU's that turbo to close to a maximum manual OC. I still have a Q6600 that can run @ 3.6ghz, stock is 2.4ghz. It was OC'd with a 120mm thermalright Ultra 120 for 6 years. I only had to increase the voltage a bit in years 4 and 5.

If you all remember intel delayed skylake 6 months simply because at the time AMD had nothing. I say this still using an Intel i5 as my main CPU. Not a fanboy of anything.

Really? I suppose the yield problems with 14nm had nothing to do with it. In fact I recall skylake being somewhat rushed to market to make up for the lack of Broadwell desktop parts.

 

[TheELF]

Which is precisely why they were pushing it, depending on consumer ignorance after pushing a headline based (50%) on a single benchmark (Counter-Strike). Just because you've seen through it doesn't mean they shouldn't be held accountable for false advertising, unless of course you're one of the usual corporate apologists

Yeah,50% seems to be the norm for very badly written code,35-40% in encoding/archiving are also real differences.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/13400/intel-9th-gen-core-i9-9900k-i7-9700k-i5-9600k-review/9

 

[Ottonomous]

Yeah,50% seems to be the norm for very badly written code,35-40% in encoding/archiving are also real differences.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/13400/intel-9th-gen-core-i9-9900k-i7-9700k-i5-9600k-review/9

Principled Technologies were promoting it as an encoding/archiving CPU? Why not just post 720p benchmarks