The Wikileaks dessemination megathread (Cablegate and beyond)

[JSt0rm]

LOL, TOTALLY inappropriate video!

Your right Peaches, this one fits you more

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gK8I5wGjKbM

 

[Infohawk]

Since when is dissemination illegal? News Papers have published classified stuff since beginning of time in USA. The crime is in stealing it not in dissemination AFAIK.

There is authority to say dissemination is illegal. http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/37/793

These laws don't get tested a lot and people misunderstand even when they do. Take Times v. United States:

In June 1971, Daniel Ellsberg and Anthony Russo were charged with felony treason under the Espionage Act of 1917, because they had no legal authority to publish classified documents that came to be known as the Pentagon Papers.[19]. Times v. United States is generally considered a victory for an extensive reading of the First Amendment, but as the Supreme Court ruled on whether the government had made a successful case for prior restraint, its decision did not void the Espionage Act or give the press unlimited freedom to publish classified documents. A majority of the justices ruled that the government could still prosecute the Times and the Post for violating the Espionage Act by publishing the documents. Ellsberg and Russo were not acquitted of violating the Espionage Act; they were freed due to a mistrial from irregularities in the government's case. -Wikipedia

Zebo was right that you're jeopardizing future employment by looking at this stuff. Many people might not care about that. But there's reason to suspect you're violating the laws of the USA. Why hasn't the federal government sued yet? It takes time and in this case it may not be worth it on a practical level since it's not going to stop anything. Again, that doesn't mean you're not violating US law. (Note that it's very clear that people that disseminate documents with an intent to harm the US are subject to prosecution. I'm not saying anyone here has the intent but there are certainly people on the internet who do have that intent and admit to it.)

Overall there's really no reason to have a link in this forum to the files or information advertising how you can help. People who are interested can find it themselves. But apparently Anandtech, a hardware-review business, wants to enter the fray. It will be interesting to see as more leaks are revealed how that makes AT look.

 

[WelshBloke]

That is not a Voltaire quote. It comes from a lovely British lady.

I'll give you a point for the attempt, though, being as you are Welsh.

Yeah I know, my sister in law has written papers about her, believe me I've been subjected to the subject many evenings.

Why do I get the feeling that you thought it was an American and the first you'd heard of either Beatrice Hall or Voltaire was a quick google after Hayabusa Rider posted? :sneaky:

 

[yllus]

Interestingly, Daniel Ellsberg of Pentagon Papers fame maintains his own blog. Thought some here might be interesting in browsing through his thoughts.

 

[HybridSquirrel]

My family is out shopping and I am not, hehehehe. I am sitting here, just sippin' a nice whiskey toddy waiting for my pizza to be served up.

I see....SO this is you?

 

[PJABBER]

Yeah I know, my sister in law has written papers about her, believe me I've been subjected to the subject many evenings.

Why do I get the feeling that you thought it was an American and the first you'd heard of either Beatrice Hall or Voltaire was a quick google after Hayabusa Rider posted? :sneaky:

Nah, I recalled it from some discussion in a political philosophy class where one of Hall's books was an available text and someone used that tidbit to try and impress a girl. Mighta been a Brit as only he was impressed. I used to read a lot of stuff from and related to the Enlightenment, as good now as then. David Hume is still a favorite.

Not to get too far off the topic, but as I need to chow down, here is a book by Hall that is very worth reading - entertaining and thought provoking!

The Friends of Voltaire, to buy.

An online version! Free! I love the Internet! :awe:

 

[PJABBER]

I see....SO this is you?

No, that is definitely YOU! :awe:

 

[HybridSquirrel]

No, that is definitely YOU! :awe:

hmmm...youre at home...your family is out...youre waiting for pizza to be delivered....sitting on the computer...



i just finished at the gym, and am going to meet my family out for dinner.


clearly you

 

[WelshBloke]

Nah, I recalled it from some discussion in a political philosophy class where one of Hall's books was an available text and someone used that tidbit to try and impress a girl. Mighta been a Brit as only he was impressed. I used to read a lot of stuff from and related to the Enlightenment, as good now as then. David Hume is still a favorite.

Not to get too far off the topic, but as I need to chow down, here is a book by Hall that is very worth reading - entertaining and thought provoking!

The Friends of Voltaire, to buy.

An online version! Free! I love the Internet! :awe:

But you still thought the quote was from an American? :\

 

[bamacre]

And for the record, I'm none too pleased with Obama's failure live up to his promises and commitments to change that.

Disappointed? Your expectations were way too high.

 

[EagleKeeper]

And for the record, I'm none too pleased with Obama's failure live up to his promises and commitments to change that.

Disappointed? Your expectations were way too high.

What national scope politician is expected to live up to campaign verbage.

He was in the US Government long enough to understand how it worked.

It was just those that clung to an illusion that believed in his words.
2000 years to late my friend

 

[CLite]

Usually I think Pjabber is an idiot, and even in this thread I think he is a bit over the top with regards to national secrecy and foreign entities.... However....

These leaks revealed no grand conspiracies, there are no shaddy undealings that anyone who spent time keeping up with all the news sources couldn't have already pieced together. What they reveal are honest accounts of diplomats coupled with a grand information sharing scheme that was put in place to prevent things like 9/11. The lack of inter-agency communication is one of the prime contributors to that act of terrorism.

Saying "everyone is hosting the information, so why shouldn't I" is the equivalent of a teenager saying "everyone is smoking what's the big deal if I do it". Anandtech is revealing it's colors by allowing a thread to exist that contributes funding to an organization that promotes global destabilization by hindering the diplomatic process, that thinks sharing information of critical sites like vaccination facilities is great, and that potentially compromises the lives of tens of thousands of people by keeping a supposed insurance bomb without redacted names. Enablers are just as culpable as the prime actor.

I want the USA to get out of all these stupid wars, to focus on it's internal security, both economic and physical. However, airing confidential diplomatic cables that will absolutely get people killed, that will hinder the global diplomatic machine, and that will lead to a constricting of information sharing is not the way to do it.

For those that play the card about intelligence agencies already seeing the information let me provide you an example. If you found out through a secret third party that someone thinks your sister is a slut you might let it be... you might take action.... it's questionable and depends on your demeanor. If it was revealed to the entire world that that person thought your sister is a slut then you might be forced to take action. This is how the global diplomatic process works and Assange has fucked a lot of shit up. The simpletons that think he's doing this because he is good and noble will just continue to hungrily slop up that paranoid megalomaniac's excrement. I honestly pity them.

I usually try to avoid this forum, and when I do visit I find myself arguing with republicans, but this thread is a disgrace.... my 2¢.

 

[yllus]

Nothing big (IMO) was revealed last night, but I did add the one story below. There also seems to be some innuendo that the U.S. was trying to influence the contents of reports from climate researchers, but it's vague enough to not be treated as fact.

NATO plans to defend Baltics from Russia: Nine NATO divisions – US, British, German, and Polish – have been identified for combat operations in the event of armed aggression against Poland or the three Baltic states. North Polish and German ports have been listed for the receipt of naval assault forces and British and US warships. The first Nato exercises under the plan are to take place in the Baltic next year, according to informed sources. (Source)

 

[yllus]

For those that play the card about intelligence agencies already seeing the information let me provide you an example. If you found out through a secret third party that someone thinks your sister is a slut you might let it be... you might take action.... it's questionable and depends on your demeanor. If it was revealed to the entire world that that person thought your sister is a slut then you might be forced to take action.

And what action would you take if your sister was a slut and everyone knew it?

 

[CLite]

And what action would you take if your sister was a slut and everyone knew it?

I provided a literary mechanism known as an analogy.

I deeply pity you if you don't understand such an term, or if you understand it but have nothing of substance to add so you are forced to derail the point.

 

[yllus]

I provided a literary mechanism known as an analogy.

I deeply pity you if you don't understand such an term, or if you understand it but have nothing of substance to add so you are forced to derail the point.

No derailing attempted; quite to the contrary, I'm asking you to follow your analogy through. The allegation that your sister is a slut is widely leaked. What action do you undertake?

 

[CLite]

No derailing attempted; quite to the contrary, I'm asking you to follow your analogy through. The allegation that your sister is a slut is widely leaked. What action do you undertake?

The analogy refers to the difference of having known but confidential information and having the information wide spread forcing regimes that live by a twisted code of honor to take action.

Would you like to discuss how the dissemination of this information is assisting global stability (in your eyes I assume?) or would you like to continue hounding about a fictional sister?

 

[yllus]

The analogy refers to the difference of having known but confidential information and having the information wide spread forcing regimes that live by a twisted code of honor to take action.

Would you like to discuss how the dissemination of this information is assisting global stability (in your eyes I assume?) or would you like to continue hounding about a fictional sister?

If they're analogous, which you insist they are, we can discuss either and reach the same conclusion. I'm simply keeping the thought experiment going.

Let's say, continuing your analogy, the information that one of the women from the family Smith is a slut becomes public knowledge. In response, you pull some strings and shut down the business of the person who facilitates the leaker. You bypass the legal system and seize his assets. You arrange for him to be placed under arrest, and make noises publicly about trying to find a way to keep him imprisoned.

Are these the actions you feel you'd be forced to take?

 

[flexy]

So, your purpose with this thread is to do your best to disseminate all of the information that Assange and his fellow neo-anarchists and neo-leftists would like you to.

[and blah..and blah....]

Opinions are divided, but some things i think are funny in your cited text:

But hardly a word has been written or spoken about the motives of the WikiLeaks' chief leaker.

Which is nonsense. You can get a pretty good picture about the motives, agenda and goal of WL simply by reading some of the Editorials on WL. There are more pieces floating around on the web, interviews etc. where (IMO) clearly is shown there is not an "Anti-American Agenda" per se - instead WL even "asked" Taliban or whoever from whatever regime out there to leak if they would be able to. There is not the slightest reason to buy into "Anti America Agenda" conspiracy theories, also from past leaks which concern and come from other countries. Note that WL exists since 2006... (With the cut-off from Amazon hosting it is my understanding that the older leaks have vanished)

Anandtech is revealing it's colors by allowing a thread to exist that contributes funding to an organization that promotes global destabilization by hindering the diplomatic process, that thinks sharing information of critical sites like vaccination facilities is great, and that potentially compromises the lives of tens of thousands of people by keeping a supposed insurance bomb without redacted names. Enablers are just as culpable as the prime actor.e

There are some fundamental FLAWS in your logic:

Note that opinons like such are only opinions. There are people calling A. a "traitor", terrorist even.....and there are some who consider him the new messiah. OPINIONS DIFFER - and they do this the more in a free country as the US is supposed to be.

Its absurd to blame a forum like this aka "reveals the colors" since it does nothing else than reflect a current news subject and the debate about it WITHOUT needing to take stance, either to the left or to the right.

You are (in my opinion) also wrong to assume that AT *needs* to have a position in this case by taking action (eg. censoring talking about WL)....as well as in the notion that AT serves some purpose as "voice of the american patriots". Because this for sure would then not be AT. AT is indeed wider known (not only in the US) and does not need to limit itself to an "America[ns] only" platform/forum of ONE kind of politcal spectrum - regardless of various heated debates on here and SINGLE users belonging more to one or the other side.

From that point of view its very legit that here in this forum we reflect and debate current news subjects as they appear in other media AT THE SAME TIME, globally even on thousands of social networking sites and forums.

AT would THEN become political biased when it takes a stance, eg. by censoring and forbidding the talk - and NOT by letting free speech rein.

Furthermore i would be careful with my choice of words, i am getting sick of people using names like "terrorists" where there is absolutely no place for it - the same goes for suggesting that people on a public forum like here are "enablers" and in some way would support terrorism etc. by discussing current news events as they happen. Absurd.

 

[CLite]

If they're analogous, which you insist they are, we can discuss either and reach the same conclusion. I'm simply keeping the thought experiment going.

Let's say, continuing your analogy, the information that one of the women from the family Smith is a slut becomes public knowledge. In response, you pull some strings and shut down the business of the person who facilitates the leaker. You bypass the legal system and seize his assets. You arrange for him to be placed under arrest, and make noises publicly about trying to find a way to keep him imprisoned.

Are these the actions you feel you'd be forced to take?

You really don't comprehend the point I was making.

Regimes such as China, Middle Eastern societies and other locations that are ruled by quasi if not complete dictatorships aren't as nice as Western societies. When people develop the gift of gab in those countries and they spread information about that society that then becomes common knowledge around the world they are punished. In the case of the Saudi King that of course won't happen, but out of 250,000 diplomatic cables there are sure to be low level people's opinions that are passed on by way of the cables. What Mr. Assange has managed to do is worse than ass-fucking all these low level lackeys, he has potentially condemned them to death. Additionally, because of honor, some countries might now pursue other avenues of diplomatic action in order to safe face for fear of being perceived as an American lackey. Of course they were just following the course of action that ensures global stability and safety for all, but the paranoid megalomaniac would not have you believe such crazy talk.

Now on to your example of the action being taken against Mr. Assange.
1) Paypal - That is the choice of the organization.
2) Post Finance brought up some reason regarding incorrect listing of a physical address. If this was illegal the bank should be brought up on the applicable charges.
3) The legal case seems bogus, but I leave that up to the EU and Sweden.

Legally I don't see much that can be done to Mr. Assange via USA law. He is just perhaps the biggest asshole in recent times, holding thousands of people's lives in peril with his insurance bomb (like his life, let alone jail time is worth even one of those people's lives), and has potentially contributed to the partial unraveling of a stable worldwide diplomatic process.

About all we can do is execute the traitor who leaked the TS information to Mr. Assange, and then ask businesses and citizens to boycott any further spread of information from Mr. Assange.

 

[CLite]

Flexy,

If Anandtech wanted to host a site spreading anarchist talk and discussion I could care less. The point is this thread discusses financing an organization that is taking ACTIONS and not just discussing viewpoints. These actions directly endanger lives in some cases and in other cases disrupt communication channels and the diplomatic process which further endangers lives indirectly.

I also did not call him or anyone else a terrorist, the only time I used the word terrorism was in referring to 9/11 which happened because of a lack of inter-agency communication.

I am not evoking a plea for American patriotic feelings to overwhelm Anandtech. Although, I would like people who have a sense of responsibility for global stability and whom respect the lives of individuals who these leaks endanger to rise up and boycott this organization rather than promote it.

 

[Infohawk]

Nothing big (IMO) was revealed last night, but I did add the one story below. There also seems to be some innuendo that the U.S. was trying to influence the contents of reports from climate researchers, but it's vague enough to not be treated as fact.

NATO plans to defend Baltics from Russia: Nine NATO divisions – US, British, German, and Polish – have been identified for combat operations in the event of armed aggression against Poland or the three Baltic states. North Polish and German ports have been listed for the receipt of naval assault forces and British and US warships. The first Nato exercises under the plan are to take place in the Baltic next year, according to informed sources. (Source)

Wow, our democracy is so much less corrupt now that we know that...

 

[yllus]

You really don't comprehend the point I was making.

I've had no trouble understanding that which you think is a point. What do you yourself think of the fact that you've evasively tried to explain away the hidden hand of various governments instead of answering the question?

Let me roll back to your first post and address other items in it. Then I'll address more from this one.

Anandtech is revealing it's colors by allowing a thread to exist that contributes funding to an organization that promotes global destabilization by hindering the diplomatic process, that thinks sharing information of critical sites like vaccination facilities is great, and that potentially compromises the lives of tens of thousands of people by keeping a supposed insurance bomb without redacted names. Enablers are just as culpable as the prime actor.

Incorrect. What AnandTech is really doing is not insulting its forum population by sticking its head in the sand and pretending that the things that are happening are not happening. This forum area is specifically for those interested in politics, and in politics right now, this is the story. If the link to provide a mirror or download the torrent was removed, they would still be easily found by those who frequent this place.

You know what happens when you refuse to acknowledge the white elephant in the room? People get tired of it and move on. It's an excellent way to kill off this forum.

In the case of the Saudi King that of course won't happen, but out of 250,000 diplomatic cables there are sure to be low level people's opinions that are passed on by way of the cables. What Mr. Assange has managed to do is worse than ass-fucking all these low level lackeys, he has potentially condemned them to death.

They're going to get killed for filing diplomatic cables with the U.S. State department that don't even rate a "top secret" clearance? As absurd as that sounds, let's say it's plausible.

In that case, it'd be best that no extralegal ills befall Mr. Assange so that those redacted names are never exposed. But if something does happen to Mr. Assange, I'd consider the need for the "insurance" to be rather justified.

Additionally, because of honor, some countries might now pursue other avenues of diplomatic action in order to safe face for fear of being perceived as an American lackey.

Yes, this may occur. Yemen's president may be forced to deny the U.S. access to its airspace to launch drone attacks. Saudi Arabia's dictators may be forced to take and justify military actions of their own against Iran.

For us in the West perhaps it's more convenient if Yemen and Saudi Arabia and the rest let us sneak around in their backyards. On the other hand, actual Yemens and Saudis probably aren't thrilled with random missile strikes from above and the doubletalk of their dictators. Why do the needs of the West trump the right of citizens in Yemen and Saudi Arabia to know what their governments have agreed to?

 

[CLite]

They're going to get killed for filing diplomatic cables with the U.S. State department that don't even rate a "top secret" clearance? As absurd as that sounds, let's say it's plausible.

The people filing the cables (US diplomats) are in no danger of being killed. The local informants who discussed potentially sensitive information with the US diplomats are in danger.

In that case, it'd be best that no extralegal ills befall Mr. Assange so that those redacted names are never exposed. But if something does happen to Mr. Assange, I'd consider the need for the "insurance" to be rather justified.

He is endangering people around the world from many different countries, not US diplomats. These people range from earnest informants disenfranchised with their corrupt governments, to obvious panderers seeking status or money.

For us in the West perhaps it's more convenient if Yemen and Saudi Arabia and the rest let us sneak around in their backyards. On the other hand, actual Yemens and Saudis probably aren't thrilled with random missile strikes from above and the doubletalk of their dictators. Why do the needs of the West trump the right of citizens in Yemen and Saudi Arabia to know what their governments have agreed to?

yllus, unfortunately the average citizen of these countries are blinded by idealism and stupidity, much like yourself. The fact is that Iran is a dangerous country that could easily destabilize world peace, and that the terrorist sites in their respective countries do the world no good. While the governments have to please simpleton citizens, they also live in the real world and are intelligent enough to recognize evil and confront it, albeit discretely.

*edit* I forgot about one thing. I directly confronted your discussion of what you deem as illicit means to apprehend Mr. Assange. I said paypal was perfectly within their right, that Post Finance seemed to provide a reasonable explanation, and that the Swedish government seems to have created trumped up charges. How would you like me to further address this?

Also about the head in the sand comment. While it would be easy to google ways to finance criminal & terrorist groups it doesn't mean Anandtech should have a how to thread regarding such methods. I personally think Wikileaks is as dangerous as any criminal group, even if they aren't exactly breaking laws.

 

[HybridSquirrel]

Has there been any confirmed reports of soldiers or Americans losing their lives over this info? Or anyone for that matter? I'm pretty sure there hasn't. Truth is our biggest enemy wikileaks has encouraged has been our own governments. Why hasn't iran or north Korea acted on wikileaks info? Oh yeah....they don't give a shit. But our politicians got embarassed, and that's not ok.