The war in Afghanistan was/is a mess

[cirrrocco]

For about a hundred or so years, the Sikhs kept the afghans under their thumb. In today's context the war would have been winnable if only the US had bombed the crap out of the terrorist state of pakistan. thousands of our young men/women and thousands more Afghans were killed since the terrorist state of pakistan army funded, fed and kept the taliban safe

Afghan–Sikh Wars - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Jhhnn]

For about a hundred or so years, the Sikhs kept the afghans under their thumb. In today's context the war would have been winnable if only the US had bombed the crap out of the terrorist state of pakistan. thousands of our young men/women and thousands more Afghans were killed since the terrorist state of pakistan army funded, fed and kept the taliban safe

Afghan–Sikh Wars - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Heh. Whip out a handy dandy map & tell us how we get massive manpower, equipment, replacements & supplies into Afghanistan if not thru Pakistan. Try to remember Pakistan has a population of 200M people & nuclear weapons while you're at it.

 

[Brainonska511]

With all the money going down the drain year after year, remind me again how much better social safety nets would cost and why we can't do those things?

 

[cirrrocco]

Heh. Whip out a handy dandy map & tell us how we get massive manpower, equipment, replacements & supplies into Afghanistan if not thru Pakistan. Try to remember Pakistan has a population of 200M people & nuclear weapons while you're at it.

About 18 years ago, Pakistan was a basket case about to go broke. When Bush threatened Pakistan that it would bomb it to the stone age, situation right away became calm in Afghanistan

BBC NEWS | South Asia | US 'threatened to bomb' Pakistan

news.bbc.co.uk

if you want, you can check out terrorist attacks in the ensuing period if you want to rebut my statement. I did the analysis years ago and there was not much cross border terrorism after that statement for a few years.

But the US SD and CIA boys club had a cozy relationship with ISI and now we have thousands and thousands of our young dead in that fucked up place. The radicalization is happening continously in the ISI sponsored seminaries and the graduates end up chasing 72 virgins in Afghanistan. No point in trying to subdue Afg when the source of the poison is in Pakistan.

 

[cytg111]

I will put forth that any war is winnable.

 

[Jaskalas]

I will put forth that any war is winnable.

Winnable, yes. Should be won? Depends on the definition.

We curb stomped the actual terrorists, and as of now, have meddled around fighting people in Afghanistan for an entire generation. At some point it is better to define the goals and say "this 'war' will not result in a peaceful, modern, Democracy". We thoroughly punished the terrorists for 9-11, it's time to cut our losses and let the Afghans decide their own future.

 

[Jhhnn]

About 18 years ago, Pakistan was a basket case about to go broke. When Bush threatened Pakistan that it would bomb it to the stone age, situation right away became calm in Afghanistan

BBC NEWS | South Asia | US 'threatened to bomb' Pakistan

news.bbc.co.uk

if you want, you can check out terrorist attacks in the ensuing period if you want to rebut my statement. I did the analysis years ago and there was not much cross border terrorism after that statement for a few years.

But the US SD and CIA boys club had a cozy relationship with ISI and now we have thousands and thousands of our young dead in that fucked up place. The radicalization is happening continously in the ISI sponsored seminaries and the graduates end up chasing 72 virgins in Afghanistan. No point in trying to subdue Afg when the source of the poison is in Pakistan.

So what? Our adventure in Afghanistan wouldn't have been possible w/o the Pakistanis. it also needs to be understood that they never have "governed" the tribal areas along the Afghan border in a real way, at all.

 

[cirrrocco]

So what? Our adventure in Afghanistan wouldn't have been possible w/o the Pakistanis. it also needs to be understood that they never have "governed" the tribal areas along the Afghan border in a real way, at all.

I dont think it was a adventure. Even for a anti war nut like me with America first tendencies [Afghanistan was a just war ]. Meanwhile, The mollycoddling of terrorist state of pakistan is not.
The first land bridge was a simple demand from the Pakistanis. You better open up a land route or we cut off IMF funding, no more 2 billion dollar a year arms rearmament and no more green cards for their generals. Pakistan was shit scared those days that the hammer was gonna fall on them. If you really really dig deep, one ISI general transferred funds to the 911 bomber just weeks before.

Now why would a Pakistan deep state ISI general transfere funds to a Saudi citizen while OBL was in cahoots with ISI. So the Pakistanis were that scared that the righteous anger and might of the USA was gonna fall on their pathetic terrorist jihadi supporting piece of shit nation. Somehow the US assumed that we need the Pakistanis more than they need us. There was also deep linkages between the clandestine arms of both states [drugs, weapons] and so the inevitable never happened

Now we see the Pakistanis whoring with the chinese after suckling on US teats.

The US and India could have easily made 2 landbridges . balochistan or NWFP. Pakistan could not have done shit and we would have our contigous land bridge to Afghanistan instead of spending 20 billion fattening those terrorists there.

 

[cirrrocco]

Here is the connection. The US and other western countries could have hung this blade right above the head of the Pakistanis until they fess up
OBL in Pakistan. Khalid Sheilk Mohammad was in pakistan as well

Michael Meacher: The Pakistan connection

Michael Meacher: There is evidence of foreign intelligence backing for the 9/11 hijackers. Why is the US government so keen to cover it up?

www.theguardian.com

I to this day still do not understand how this was hushed up.

 

[cirrrocco]

Please delete. wrong thread

 

[cytg111]

Over time I have tried to bend my mind a little around this concept of winning a population over to a better alternative than brutality rule.
Instead of dropping bombs on them, how about dropping rosetta stones? Some kind of hardended kindle like devices that run off solar. The device would be able to teach basic language, math etc. ease the unsuspecting user into social sciences etc. I think a lot could be done without the bombs.... start by planting the seeds.
Maybe drop 100 million over Fox country in the US as well.

 

[ivwshane]

Over time I have tried to bend my mind a little around this concept of winning a population over to a better alternative than brutality rule.
Instead of dropping bombs on them, how about dropping rosetta stones? Some kind of hardended kindle like devices that run off solar. The device would be able to teach basic language, math etc. ease the unsuspecting user into social sciences etc. I think a lot could be done without the bombs.... start by planting the seeds.
Maybe drop 100 million over Fox country in the US as well.

In order to win the war in Afghanistan we would have to engage in nation building like has never been seen before in modern times. It would require way more resources than anyone would be willing to put in. Absent that, there is no winning.

 

[Starbuck1975]

In order to win the war in Afghanistan we would have to engage in nation building like has never been seen before in modern times. It would require way more resources than anyone would be willing to put in. Absent that, there is no winning.

More of an investment than say post war Germany and Japan? The true victory of WW2 was that we extended honor in defeat to both nations and essentially rebuilt them from the ground up.

Wonder what the price tag would have been compared to over a decade of perpetual war.

 

[ivwshane]

More of an investment than say post war Germany and Japan? The true victory of WW2 was that we extended honor in defeat to both nations and essentially rebuilt them from the ground up.

Wonder what the price tag would have been compared to over a decade of perpetual war.

Yes larger than that. Why? Because their culture didn’t require as big of a change as would be required in Afghanistan.

In terms of costs, think about how much it would cost to build multiple cities from the ground up. That’s infrastructure, government, business, housing, and then you’d still need to build the social aspects of it, all while fighting corruption that’s inherent and much more rampant in a fledgling state.

 

[m8d]

America needs more men like Smedley D. Butler.

 

[woolfe9998]

Yes larger than that. Why? Because their culture didn’t require as big of a change as would be required in Afghanistan.

In terms of costs, think about how much it would cost to build multiple cities from the ground up. That’s infrastructure, government, business, housing, and then you’d still need to build the social aspects of it, all while fighting corruption that’s inherent and much more rampant in a fledgling state.

Yes, and those people wanted our help rebuilding and could comprehend the importance of what we were giving them. These tired examples of Germany and Japan after WWII are the core of neo-conservative thought, which IMO has been systematically discredited by our experience in both Iraq and Afghanistan. What worked in one place may not work in another, no matter how much money you throw at it.