The Ultimate Wal Mart Thread; Is Wal Mart good for America

[LunarRay]

For comparison.. This is how Ireland calculates its income tax.. And, they do have free health care available.

Personal allowances and income tax rates
Ireland operates a system of tax credits rather than personal allowances.

The income tax credits for 2003 are:

Single persons ?1,520
Married couples ?3,040
PAYE Credit* ?800
* Not available to proprietary directors and the self employed

The income tax rates for 2003 are as follows:
Single persons
20% on the first ?28,000
42% on the balance

Married persons (one spouse working)
20% on the first ?37,000
42% on the balance

Married persons (both spouses working)
20% on the first ?56,000
40% on the balance

Social Security and Levies

Employees
In addition to income tax there are also social security taxes that have to be paid on earned income. From 1 January 2003 employees social security is charged at the rate of 4% on income up to ?40,420. In both cases, the first £127 of weekly earnings is exempt.

There is a health levy which is charged at the rate of 2% on all income (without limit). The health levy does not apply if aggregate earnings are less than ?18,512.

Self-Employed
Self-employed individuals pay social security at the rate of 3%, plus the 2% health levy on all income without limit.

Edit.. I left out that PAYE = Pay (your tax due) as you earn.. you often don't file a tax return either. It depends on the earnings and a few other issues..

 

[Ultima]

Originally posted by: dirtboy

Originally posted by: Ultima
What are you talking about? I don't consider huge house and two $50,000 autos middle class. That's upper class, or maybe upper middle if you wanna stretch it. Middle class is cheap homes and two $20,000 autos. If only one parent works, then that's one $10,000 autos and maybe they live in an apartment.

Two people each making 40-60k a year is middle class. With that kind of income, couples often can afford a large house and two nice automobiles. I see it day in and day out. Believe me, these people aren't upper class.

That is still definately above average.. at least around here. Not that I wouldn't mind that lifestyle

 

[adams828]

tv = $250
antenna = $30

watching paris hilton say "what's walmart? do you like, buy stuff to go on your walls there?" = priceless

 

[ReiAyanami]

i wonder if the "walton 4" ever been in their own sprawl*mart. well i guess one of em had to to open up the first one...

 

[Jhhnn]

Ultima's numbers don't fit with this-

Canadian taxes

For the purposes of this type of discussion, numbers w/o linkage are, uhh, garbage...

The whole area is completely OT, anyway...

So, how do all the so-called conservatives feel about WalMart indirectly supplementing their profits with welfare system payments to their employees?

Helluva deal, as I see it. Transfer some of the costs of doing business to the taxpayers, who are borrowing the money anyway, pocket the difference. Nice trick during a changing economy- what happens when the change is complete, and WalMart wages are the rule rather than the exception, and the govt is so deep in debt that further borrowing is impractical? How to maintain the illusion at that point?

 

[Sureshot324]

A hundred or so years ago it was argued that modern automated farming equipement would put thousands of farmers out of a job. It did, but i'm pretty sure unemployement now isn't any higher than it was then. It just leaves these people to provide new products and services that we didn't have before, and since food is now cheaper, people have the money to spend on these things.

Wal Mart is the same thing. It can provide all its products much more efficiently than the businesses it replaces, leaving workforce and consumer money for other things. It's a change in our economy and any economical change will cost some people their jobs, but that doesn't mean our economy should never change.

 

[Ultima]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Ultima's numbers don't fit with this-

Canadian taxes

For the purposes of this type of discussion, numbers w/o linkage are, uhh, garbage...

The whole area is completely OT, anyway...

So, how do all the so-called conservatives feel about WalMart indirectly supplementing their profits with welfare system payments to their employees?

Helluva deal, as I see it. Transfer some of the costs of doing business to the taxpayers, who are borrowing the money anyway, pocket the difference. Nice trick during a changing economy- what happens when the change is complete, and WalMart wages are the rule rather than the exception, and the govt is so deep in debt that further borrowing is impractical? How to maintain the illusion at that point?

Income tax is not the only tax that exists. You're forgetting about the other taxes. I got my numbers from the Fraser Institute; I didn't just pull them out of my ass

You can get numbers by going to the following link: Text

 

[Jhhnn]

"I got my numbers from the Fraser Institute; I didn't just pull them out of my ass."

And I'd know that just how? Ouija board? Smell test? Thanks for the link and the info, anyway... Now if we just had a comparison of what Canadians get for their money vs Americans, we'd be able to make sense out of it all...

 

[tart666]

Originally posted by: adams828
tv = $250
antenna = $30

watching paris hilton say "what's walmart? do you like, buy stuff to go on your walls there?" = priceless

lol

and to everyone whining about "made in china" stuff sold in walmart: how many packaged in america CPU's do you have ???? I know: zero!

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

I can't believe most of you think Wal Mart is *bad* for America. You should be ASHAMED of yourselves for not paying attention in economics class. Good god, people, Wal Mart provides decent goods at dirt cheap prices. What does that REALLY mean? It means that the average joe can afford to buy MORE STUFF than they otherwise could, which in turn means that the STANDARD OF LIVING for the poorest among us is INCREASED.

Wal Mart is one of the best things to EVER happen to this country.

Jason

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
I can't believe most of you think Wal Mart is *bad* for America. You should be ASHAMED of yourselves for not paying attention in economics class. Good god, people, Wal Mart provides decent goods at dirt cheap prices. What does that REALLY mean? It means that the average joe can afford to buy MORE STUFF than they otherwise could, which in turn means that the STANDARD OF LIVING for the poorest among us is INCREASED.

Wal Mart is one of the best things to EVER happen to this country.

Jason

Tell that to the Mom and Pops. Walmart isn't one of the worst thing to happen, but it certainly isn't one of the best either.

 

[Jhhnn]

Somehow, I think the American dream involves more than just buying more cheap plastic crap from walmart. Yeh, sure, they're lowering prices on the stuff they sell, but they're also lowering wages in ways direct and indirect.

So while the price of their stuff goes down, and part of that is accomplished through ruthless wage control, the price of everything that really matters goes up- rent, real estate, health care, utilities, education.

I'm not jealous of young people just getting out on their own today. Entry level jobs don't pay worth a damn, they're not particularly stable or offering upward mobility, and necessities gobble up a very large % of those wages. Buying a home moves into the realm of a dream, having a positive net worth becomes pure fantasy... hell, sometimes paying the heat bill gets tricky...

And, if trends continue, all the better paying jobs will be offshored, leaving only those you can't move, and competition will be fierce for those, further depressing wages. And you'll have to compete with illegal immigrant labor, too, they'll work for almost nothing, live eight to a room, work like slaves...

And WalMart leads the charge into that bright future. But, hey, you'll have lots of cheap plastic crap, even if you don't have a place to keep it, and there's always Jesus...

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
I can't believe most of you think Wal Mart is *bad* for America. You should be ASHAMED of yourselves for not paying attention in economics class. Good god, people, Wal Mart provides decent goods at dirt cheap prices. What does that REALLY mean? It means that the average joe can afford to buy MORE STUFF than they otherwise could, which in turn means that the STANDARD OF LIVING for the poorest among us is INCREASED.

Wal Mart is one of the best things to EVER happen to this country.

Jason

I guess if your vision for America is accumulating as much cheap crap as possible, then Wal-Mart is a godsend. If you care about good jobs, greater opportunity, health care, fair competition, and similar silly extravagances, Wal-Mart's effect isn't quite so sunny.

 

[rjain]

Originally posted by: Sureshot324
A hundred or so years ago it was argued that modern automated farming equipement would put thousands of farmers out of a job. It did, but i'm pretty sure unemployement now isn't any higher than it was then. It just leaves these people to provide new products and services that we didn't have before, and since food is now cheaper, people have the money to spend on these things.

FINALLY. Somebody talks about the plight of the FARMERS!

 

[rjain]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

I guess if your vision for America is accumulating as much cheap crap as possible, then Wal-Mart is a godsend. If you care about good jobs, greater opportunity, health care, fair competition, and similar silly extravagances, Wal-Mart's effect isn't quite so sunny.

So you're in support of fair competition as long as it's not Walmart? You think that there are no management positions at Walmart? You think that having no job is better than having a job at Walmart?

 

[Softballslug]

I'm sick of all you Walmart haters!!! Good god, if you don't like them shop elsewhere and put them out of business as it sounds like you are the majority! They are in the position that they are because of basic business principals. BUY LOW SELL HIGH!! Get over it. I like how everyone singles out Walmart. McDonalds, Taco Bell, Burger King, Applebee's, Safeway, King Soopers, Michaels, Kmart, Target, Kohls, JCPenney, Home Depot, Lowes (Basically ANY major name) all do the same thing, Walmart is just better at it. Part of the reason people don't shop the "locals" is selection, price and quality. If you sell a better product for a better price, people will buy it, whether you are local or not! Try and find full time at any of the above stores. You all peruse the "hot deals" forumn in hopes of scamming a better price on anything, yet when Walmart "scams" a better price its bad for America...........

Its easy, if you don't like it shop elsewhere and the law of supply and demand will take over. If there is no demand, there will be no supply.....
You should all read economics 101...

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: rjain

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

I guess if your vision for America is accumulating as much cheap crap as possible, then Wal-Mart is a godsend. If you care about good jobs, greater opportunity, health care, fair competition, and similar silly extravagances, Wal-Mart's effect isn't quite so sunny.

So you're in support of fair competition as long as it's not Walmart? You think that there are no management positions at Walmart? You think that having no job is better than having a job at Walmart?

You think you can actually address any of the issues raised instead of throwing out red herrings?

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Well, Bowfinger, since your entire ridiculous statement was based on Red Herrings and BS buzzwords, I don't see that he's that far out of line. Your assertion that Wal Mart destroys good paying jobs is utterly ridiculous at best. Like the slackers at the Grocery Stores in California you obviously think EVERY job deserves a high wage even when it's simple, unskilled labor, a premise which, if enacted, would drive ALL of us into bankruptcy.

There's a damn good reason why simple, manual labor jobs don't make $50,000 a year: THEY DON'T DESERVE TO. It's a simple supply and demand issue. How many people out there can learn to run a cash register or stock shelves in a short amount of time? WAY over 90% of us can, and *that* is the reason why those jobs pay very little. Look at something more skilled, like say, a Network Systems Engineer who designs LAN/WAN systems and earns $60,000 a year or more and then try to replace that person quickly and easily. You can't do it, and why? Because there are fewer people with those skills, and so the value of the labor is increased. If people want to get good paying jobs then they need to get their butts out of the chair and get some freaking skills! LEARN something that someone will pay you a good wage to do! Don't demand ridiculous labor for monkey-work! Good god, man! You bet your ass it's hard to make ends meet on those unskilled jobs, and it SHOULD be! Maybe that's a little incentive for people to get some education and improve THEIR OWN lives! And frankly, if you can't muster the ambition to do something about your situation, I have no pity for you AT ALL. You can sit there and sink into the filth until you rot to death in it, I *DON'T* care. I will NOT help those who refuse to help themselves.

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Oh and by the way, FVCK the "plight of farmers" crap. I'm sick to death of Bush and other past presidents STEALING from the rest of us to subsidize the farm industry. They should learn to do their business more efficiently or leave the production of food to someone who can. You drooling Socialists in this thread cry and whine about FAIRNESS and yet you endorse the government STEALING from some people in order to give to others. What you support is, in effect, the ENSLAVEMENT of some people to others, and there is *NOTHING* fair or right about that. You should be ashamed of yourselves for your short sightedness and your idiotic clinging to buzzwords and catch phrases, the meaning of which you haven't even bothered to examine with your own minds. Pathetic.

Jason

 

[sandorski]

Why does "unskilled" = "undeserving"?

Were the employees of Ford "undeserving" when Henry Ford chose to pay them well? Are those making a good wage at Safeway or other high paying low skill job a drain on the system? Are people starving or going without because someone is making a good wage? Who is more beneficial to the economy, someone making Minimum wage(or damn close to it) or someone making a good wage which allows them to buy a home/car/or other things?

The vast majority of those in the Middle Class are those who make a decent wage, some are high skill, some medium, many are low skill jobs. If "low skill" becomes "low wage" a good chunk of the Middle Class will be lost.

 

[Ultima]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Why does "unskilled" = "undeserving"?

Were the employees of Ford "undeserving" when Henry Ford chose to pay them well? Are those making a good wage at Safeway or other high paying low skill job a drain on the system? Are people starving or going without because someone is making a good wage? Who is more beneficial to the economy, someone making Minimum wage(or damn close to it) or someone making a good wage which allows them to buy a home/car/or other things?

The vast majority of those in the Middle Class are those who make a decent wage, some are high skill, some medium, many are low skill jobs. If "low skill" becomes "low wage" a good chunk of the Middle Class will be lost.

This is true. Many people still work unionized jobs in manufacturing or other sectors which are low skill but physically demanding..

 

[Corn]

Tell that to the Mom and Pops.

Funny. Across the street from my office is a "mom and pop" hardware store, liquor store, pizzeria, dry cleaner, and take out chinese food shop. All seem to be staffed by minimum, or even below, wage earners--mostly kids and immigrant employees.

Evidently mom and pop exploit cheap labor every bit as much as Walmart. Down with mom and pop!!!!!

Cable modems are BAD for America. Look at it's proliferation against the lowly dial-up access!!!! What a shame the wheels of "progress" ends up crushing those whom can't keep up. LOL

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Corn

Tell that to the Mom and Pops.

Funny. Across the street from my office is a "mom and pop" hardware store, liquor store, pizzeria, dry cleaner, and take out chinese food shop. All seem to be staffed by minimum, or even below, wage earners--mostly kids and immigrant employees.

Evidently mom and pop exploit cheap labor every bit as much as Walmart. Down with mom and pop!!!!!

Cable modems are BAD for America. Look at it's proliferation against the lowly dial-up access!!!! What a shame the wheels of "progress" ends up crushing those whom can't keep up. LOL

Yup, but Mom and Pop are making a decent wage, most likely. How many Mom and Pops are killed by Walmart and how many Managers replace the lost Mom and Pops? How many small towns lost their Mom and Pop businesses when the outsider Walmart came in? How many local people lost their livlihood and towns lost their tax base due to Walmart?

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Why does "unskilled" = "undeserving"?

Were the employees of Ford "undeserving" when Henry Ford chose to pay them well? Are those making a good wage at Safeway or other high paying low skill job a drain on the system? Are people starving or going without because someone is making a good wage? Who is more beneficial to the economy, someone making Minimum wage(or damn close to it) or someone making a good wage which allows them to buy a home/car/or other things?

The vast majority of those in the Middle Class are those who make a decent wage, some are high skill, some medium, many are low skill jobs. If "low skill" becomes "low wage" a good chunk of the Middle Class will be lost.

In answer to your question of whether a low skill Safeway worker making a high skill wage is a drain on the system, the answer is an unequivocal YES. Because of these higher wages, grocery prices are higher and it's more difficult for people to afford to eat and feed their children. Do you think it's the rich who are most hurt by this? It's the POOR who are hit the hardest because they have less of a cushion to absorb the higher costs of the food. Your idea of low skill deserving high pay PUNISHES the poor people who are least capable of affording those higher wages.

You really need to read Milton and Rose Friedman's economics treatise "Free to Choose", which is not only an excellent history of economic theory but is filled with great examples --REAL examples-- of how and why your idea of unskilled labor deserving ridiculously high wages accomplishes nothing more than the punishment of the poor and a DECREASE in standards of living.

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Yup, but Mom and Pop are making a decent wage, most likely. How many Mom and Pops are killed by Walmart and how many Managers replace the lost Mom and Pops? How many small towns lost their Mom and Pop businesses when the outsider Walmart came in? How many local people lost their livlihood and towns lost their tax base due to Walmart?

How many poor families were able to buy more toys and clothes for their children than they could have gotten at the mom and pop stores? How many kids who wouldn't have gotten much of a Christmas now have at least a few things under the tree? How many teenagers who would have been broke because the mom and pop stores couldn't afford to hire them now have jobs that bring in a few hundred dollars a month? How many old people who were sitting at home with the bare minimum provided by the failed Socialist Security system now enjoy some semblance of purpose in life as greeters who welcome the Wal Mart shoppers and now have a few more bucks than they otherwise would?

Do you ever think about the real consequences of *anything* or do you just accept the nonsense that the Socialist Media pound into your head night after night? Good god, man, take an economics class and learn to THINK about what you blabber on about.

Jason