imported_Noob
Senior member
That's what I have been saying. But hopefully a major breakthrough occurs.
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The Ultimate SM3.0 Game Thread
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That's what I have been saying. But hopefully a major breakthrough occurs.
hans030390
Diamond Member
If a game is built from the ground up with SM3.0, it will run fine on a 6800 card...or maybe it wont...you know what? NONE of the games out now were built from the ground up with SM3.0, so how can you judge if it will run good or bad in next gen games? you cant, i cant, NO ONE can.
I THINK that they will do fine though. They'll do better then the ATI cards out now, which is all that matters to ME. For those of you who upgrade every year, it dont think it is an issue right now.
And about SM3.0 not improving detail......wtf??? have you SEEN the next gen games? ES4😱blivion, Condemned, etc, will ALL be using SM3.0....so are you saying that those games dont look any better then Doom 3 or Half Life 2?
Sure, SM3.0 doesnt do much for games NOW, but the future is more important. I dont want a system that can play the games now, but one that will play the games of the future...
IMO, if you don't upgrade your video card often, and you want to play future games at the highest quality possible with the cards of today with the best speed possible, go for the 6xxx series...now, if you can wait, get the new cards from ATI (R520).
SM3.0 should not be tested with games built with SM2.0, but games built from SM3.0, so i think we are all arguing about nothing.
I THINK that they will do fine though. They'll do better then the ATI cards out now, which is all that matters to ME. For those of you who upgrade every year, it dont think it is an issue right now.
And about SM3.0 not improving detail......wtf??? have you SEEN the next gen games? ES4😱blivion, Condemned, etc, will ALL be using SM3.0....so are you saying that those games dont look any better then Doom 3 or Half Life 2?
Sure, SM3.0 doesnt do much for games NOW, but the future is more important. I dont want a system that can play the games now, but one that will play the games of the future...
IMO, if you don't upgrade your video card often, and you want to play future games at the highest quality possible with the cards of today with the best speed possible, go for the 6xxx series...now, if you can wait, get the new cards from ATI (R520).
SM3.0 should not be tested with games built with SM2.0, but games built from SM3.0, so i think we are all arguing about nothing.
MisterChief
Banned
Does it really matter? Newer, more powerful cards will be released by the end of 2005, and will obviously come with newer instructions and architectures. Arguing about SM2.0 v. SM3.0 is pointless.
imported_Noob
Senior member
I have never doubted nore said that SM 3.0 won't improve image quality in future games. That would just be ignorant to say. But they apparetly don't look better on HL2 or Far Cry. Except maybe for the HDR Bloom effect I was recently informaed about. But apparetnly ATI has supported this in their latest drivers.
But what I am saying is MAYBE SM 3.0 won't advance fast enough to make a huge difference before this generation of cards become outdated and can't play future games with full and optimized SM 3.0 integration. I mean look, a new card is coming out every year that is twice as fast. And I don't think game and software developers aren't gonna take advantage of the power in order to FULLY compensate for us with last generation cards. The time of a card lasting you for 4 years has ended.
imported_Noob
Senior member
True. But I think better AA and AF without killing performance is also a huge benefactor. SM 3.0 is still up in the air. But AA and AF we know can really make a difference in image quality. Unfortunately AA and AF kill the performance on the 6800.
apoppin
Lifer
The 6800 is a upper mid-level card . . . . the 6800gt and ultra have no problem with superfast FPS with aa/af enabled nor any IQ issues . . . . certainly the "performance difference" between the Ultra and the XT-PE is a matter of 'brand preference'.
otoh, SM 3.0 is NOT "up in the air" . . . it is an absolute certainty . . . . 😉
But then you are a fanATIc. 😛
:roll:
imported_Noob
Senior member
Well AA and AF do seem to kill performance according to Xbit Labs and some other hardware analysis forums:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/r420-2.html
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/half-life.html
Also SM 3.0 is up in the air in the sense that we don't know when a major breathrough is coming along. And please stop with these false accusations of fanatisism. I could say the same about you but I don't because it just creates flame wars which destroy the topic.
WTH? Looking at those HDR screens, it looks like they just ramped up specular reflections way higher than normal. And this is supposed to be a big deal WHY? From what I've seen, the same thing could be done by changing the lighting on the scene, or using shader code. And even then, I'm not impressed by the results.
imported_Noob
Senior member
Which ones, the SC3 ones?
apoppin
Lifer
You can "hand pick" examples all you want . . . that IS what makes you such an ati fan.
(sure, you can call me an "ati fan" . . . . i just don't gloss over their faults or fail to see the quality of their competitor's flagship card 😉
WTH are you talking "major breakthrough"? There are NO breakthroughs re: SM 3.0 any more than there were "breakthroughs" with SM 2.0 😛
:roll:
apoppin
Lifer
We have agreed before . . . our problem was when it got "personal" . . . . as long as it stays 'civil', anything can be discussed - even this 'flamefest' mellowed out when it was realized there were TWO points of view. 😉
My only comment on the "other" POV is that it used to be "more valid" a year ago when the 6800 series and x800s were new.
After much shorter then i would have thought possible, nVidia succeded in getting a nice group of games that either included SM 3.0 in a patch or is released with SM 3.0 functionality . . . . now that ATI has (is) joined(ing) with a core of their own that supports SM 3.0 we shall see most new games going 'native' with this feature . . .
i can't imagine why anyone would want to be w/o this UNLESS they planned to upgrade by at least this time next year . . . .
imported_Noob
Senior member
Your right there are no major breakthroughs. What I mean by major breakthrough is a huge advancment in image quality and performance, which we have not seen in SM 3.0. And we don't know when there will be one. Hopefully soon so this gen of cards can perform quiet well on the future games. But I decided to go with the X800 because it so far is the dominant card in performance and image quality in terms of AA and AF. But I am not looking down long term because I plan to buy the "Pro" or "GT" version of the next generation cards.
apoppin
Lifer
again you misunderstand . . . . go back to that article i linked for you . . . .
SM 3.0 is a natural progression of SMs . . . . an extension of SM 2.0. There is no "breakthrough" in IQ or performance . . . . SM 3.0 can do some nice new visual effects for a realistic looking 'motion blur' effect and HDR - right NOW. Creating fully programmable displacement maps plus creating more realistic physics simulations is something game programmers are doing right now to extend the capabilities of the Doom iii engine, HL2's Source engine, Cryteck's, Serious', Starbreeze', Unreal's etc.
Although you card does not "dominate", it is a very (very) nice card . . . . but people buying one TODAY might consider the lack of SM 3.0 especially if they do NOT plan to UPgrade this year.
imported_Noob
Senior member
I know my card oes nto dominate, it's a 12 Piper. But I have already said that SM 3.0's only image quality enhancement SO FAR is HDR Bloom Effect. Which is supposed to be supported in ATI's newest driver.
But IMO I would rather go for a card that doesn't drop significantly in FPS while enabling AA and AF then a card with future support for SM 3.0, even if I wasn't planning to upgrade this year. But that is just me. The only thing I would be worried about if I had a 6800 is that the card would be too outdated to perform any next gen games that would support SM 3.0 when it becomes really advanced. But again that is just me.
I can't believe I read the whole thing!
Anyway, a few comments:
IMO, FP32 is not more "modern" than FP24. More precise, maybe. Neither is a dual FP16/FP32 implementation more modern. Allows for better use of limited registers, maybe. But I'm not sure I'd call it more modern, just like I wouldn't call the GF6's crossbar/FIFO bridge between its pixel pipes and its ROPs more modern. I'd just call it different, and probably rule it more of an engineering feature than one a developer can exploit in games.
What I would call more modern is SM3, FP blending, and PCF. ATi is 0 for 3 on those counts. You can argue, as I have, that their deficiency isn't that great in the real world, but the fact remains that nV's current gen has more features implemented in hardware than ATi.
Now, whether those extra (more "modern") features are fast enough to be useful is another topic entirely. I'm not sure I'd care for FC's HDR via the GF6's FP blending if it meant 30fps average, but I'm pickier than most when it comes to framerate.
Anyway, a few comments:
The GF6 series has a more modern feature set than the X800 series, but not for the reasons Rollo specified.
IMO, FP32 is not more "modern" than FP24. More precise, maybe. Neither is a dual FP16/FP32 implementation more modern. Allows for better use of limited registers, maybe. But I'm not sure I'd call it more modern, just like I wouldn't call the GF6's crossbar/FIFO bridge between its pixel pipes and its ROPs more modern. I'd just call it different, and probably rule it more of an engineering feature than one a developer can exploit in games.
What I would call more modern is SM3, FP blending, and PCF. ATi is 0 for 3 on those counts. You can argue, as I have, that their deficiency isn't that great in the real world, but the fact remains that nV's current gen has more features implemented in hardware than ATi.
Now, whether those extra (more "modern") features are fast enough to be useful is another topic entirely. I'm not sure I'd care for FC's HDR via the GF6's FP blending if it meant 30fps average, but I'm pickier than most when it comes to framerate.
TruForm improves IQ, but it certainly doesn't improve performance.
SM3 was specced way back when DX9 was "released," AFAIK. If you mean the FC SM2.0b path, that's something Crytech implemented, alongside the SM3 path, to reduce some of the inefficiencies of their original SM2 path (more lights per pass, for one).
Is this true? I'm sure X800 previews mentioned SM2.0b. Are you talking about geometry instancing, rather than SM2.0b's extra registers and instruction slots?
imported_Noob
Senior member
I was talking about Far Cry implementing Sm 3.0, that was in their 1.3 patch excluding the beta in 1.2.
apoppin
Lifer
Well let's consder the facts . . . .the 6800gt or ultra doesn't drop FPS *significantly* when enabling AA/AF . . . . except in a few very specific cases (and we are talking at least 16x12 resolution). 😉
Game SW does not advance overnight . . . . it too must follow a natural progression . . . . the 6800gt/ultra x800XT/x850xtpe won't meet a significant "roadblock" until DX10 - long after r520/Nv5x . . . . by then SM 4.0 will be the 'next thing'.
SM 3.0 doesn't become "really advanced" - it is already predetermined what it can do . . . . programmers will just use longer and longer sets of instructions and more complex 'everything' . . . . but they can never (practically) develop a game ahead of the current HW curve . . . . only to project ahead to meet it.
i wouldn't let a remote "maybe" keep me from choosing the HW that will run the latest set of features for games NOW.
Scoobyd00
Golden Member
I am hoping that SM3 comes in alot of games next year. Only to have Nv tell everybody that they must spend 25 dollars on thier software to adjust for the fact that the 6XXX cards are just a broken P.O.S.
They wouldn't do that again would they???
I own a 6800GT, and am not a fan boy of either brand really but when it comes to making my future purchases it wont be an Nvidia until they change thier ways. First the wonderful FX series and thier "DX9" problem to 6XXX series and the broken VPU (that they knew didnt work and still made it a selling point on the card). Just to get it to market quicker because they were falling behind ATI again.
They wouldn't do that again would they???
I own a 6800GT, and am not a fan boy of either brand really but when it comes to making my future purchases it wont be an Nvidia until they change thier ways. First the wonderful FX series and thier "DX9" problem to 6XXX series and the broken VPU (that they knew didnt work and still made it a selling point on the card). Just to get it to market quicker because they were falling behind ATI again.
otispunkmeyer
Lifer
dont go there mate, just walk away. this thread is already hot to the touch with the SM3 issue, we dont need our fingers getting burned with you adding more fuel to the flames.
if you want to b1tch about nvidias VPU theres a thread on it, go find it, the top end FX cards are still good and as it turns out, are still worth having seen as there arent even that many SM2 games yet.
Nvidias ways? and im sure ATi have never done anything dodgy before eh?:disgust:
Jeff7181
Lifer
I find it amazing that people are actually getting mad about a feature included in a card that's not being used yet. Should Intel remove SSE3 from their new cores because there's maybe one or two applications out of hundreds of thousands that use it? Of course not. How is SM3.0 any different? Be rational, people... new features are a good thing, whether they're used or not. It paves the way for software that WILL use those features.
Gamingphreek
Lifer
Jeff7181... that is a VERY good point.
Addtionally i find it interesting that Noob continues to say that ATI has far superior IQ especially with AA when Nvidia and ATI use the exact same AA type (Rotated Grid, right?), that on top of the fact that no unbiased reviewer can really tell the difference between the IQ of Nvidia and ATI cards in this generation.
This argument is a moot point. Jeff explained it all in 1 paragraph. A lot of you are putting SM3 down and making it seem like it is horrible; ANY extra feature is a positive for a piece of hardware, granted it has to be implemented, but rest assured sooner or later SM3 will be implemented.
-Kevin
Addtionally i find it interesting that Noob continues to say that ATI has far superior IQ especially with AA when Nvidia and ATI use the exact same AA type (Rotated Grid, right?), that on top of the fact that no unbiased reviewer can really tell the difference between the IQ of Nvidia and ATI cards in this generation.
This argument is a moot point. Jeff explained it all in 1 paragraph. A lot of you are putting SM3 down and making it seem like it is horrible; ANY extra feature is a positive for a piece of hardware, granted it has to be implemented, but rest assured sooner or later SM3 will be implemented.
-Kevin
Again, the point of this thread isn't that no one should implement SM3.0 or that it doesn't have benefits, I think everyone likes advances in technology. The question posed is the one several pages back in bold. Here it is again:
This thread is simply trying to determine whether SM3.0 is a factor that should be legitimately considered when making a purchasing decision on this generation of cards. To wit, does having SM3.0 confer any sort of tangible advantage such that one could say that having a SM3.0 card is a "must" over a card without the feature. To determine that I am gathering a list of SM3.0 enabled games currently available and forthcoming in the near future to allow people to answer the question on their own.
This thread is simply trying to determine whether SM3.0 is a factor that should be legitimately considered when making a purchasing decision on this generation of cards. To wit, does having SM3.0 confer any sort of tangible advantage such that one could say that having a SM3.0 card is a "must" over a card without the feature. To determine that I am gathering a list of SM3.0 enabled games currently available and forthcoming in the near future to allow people to answer the question on their own.
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