The U.S. Middle Class Is Being Wiped Out

[Zorkorist]

It is the loss of cheap labor that is stifling America. That, and other Government Laws and regulations that make it more expensive to produce, obviously impact our ability to deliver products and services at competitive prices.

Voila, a middle class crisis.

-John

 

[IndyColtsFan]

"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity."

Is it possible to prepare for an opportunity that never presents itself? Certainly. But you guarantee you won't find luck if you never prepare.

Absolutely -- you have to be smart enough to know when to take advantage of good situations when they present themselves. That is often easier said than done for many, however. I won't bore you with details, but my wife has a friend who is the poster child for not taking advantage of golden opportunities and sometimes, you just want to slap people like that.

 

[Zebo]

Agreed blanghorst - When manufacturing moves abroad, engineering follows. R&D follows engineering, and innovation follows R&D. The entire economy drains away. This is why the “new economy” has not materialized to take the place of the lost “old economy.”

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Agreed blanghorst - When manufacturing moves abroad, engineering follows. R&D follows engineering, and innovation follows R&D. The entire economy drains away. This is why the “new economy” has not materialized to take the place of the lost “old economy.”

My favorite line:

"When CEOs say they can’t find American engineers, they mean they cannot find Americans who will work for Chinese or Indian wages. That is what the so-called “shortage” is all about. "

Every time I hear a CEO or an HR person say "we can't find enough skilled people" in the media, I just roll my eyes.

Also, WTF?!?!?

"Why pay an error-prone order-taker the minimum wage when McDonald's can have the order transmitted via satellite to a central location and from there to the person preparing the order. McDonald’s experiment with this system to date has cut its error rate by 50% and increased its throughput by 20 percent. Technology lets the orders be taken in India or China at costs below the minimum wage and without the liabilities of US employees. "

How widespread is this?

 

[Zebo]

My favorite line:

"When CEOs say they can’t find American engineers, they mean they cannot find Americans who will work for Chinese or Indian wages. That is what the so-called “shortage” is all about. "

Every time I hear a CEO or an HR person say "we can't find enough skilled people" in the media, I just roll my eyes.

LOL same here... this is another truism From Roberts and relates.

"Offshoring transforms American workers’ wages into performance bonuses for executives, capital gains for shareholders, and honoraria and research grants for economists who shill for the practice.

The problem that the US economy faces is far more serious than the financial crisis resulting from financial deregulation. The reason that traditional monetary and fiscal policies cannot produce an economic recovery is that so much of the US economy has been moved offshore. As the jobs have departed, there is no work to which low interest rates and massive government spending can recall workers. "

 

[piasabird]

You guys need to slow down. Look at all the red tape that is created every time the Democrats start drafting legislation to fix problems that dont exist. We had a banking problem and the democrats came up with legislation that did not even fix the problem. What is up with that?

 

[Trianon]

You guys need to slow down. Look at all the red tape that is created every time the Democrats start drafting legislation to fix problems that dont exist. We had a banking problem and the democrats came up with legislation that did not even fix the problem. What is up with that?

I don't think it's just Democrats, both parties are guilty, Republicans were advocating leaving things as is, which lead to the predicament with overleverage and naked risktaking, Democrats pushed thru 2300 page POS that serves big banks and special interests, doesn't solve essential problems and sets conditions for future crisis. The entire Congress is one big charade for American public, set up to keep populous occupied with political show and distracted from problems that need immediate attention.

 

[Trianon]

Nice bit from last year

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcQJSFJKvy0&feature=related

 

[Craig234]

You guys need to slow down. Look at all the red tape that is created every time the Democrats start drafting legislation to fix problems that dont exist. We had a banking problem and the democrats came up with legislation that did not even fix the problem. What is up with that?

You won't like the answer, but a combination of Republican resistance and desire to gut the bill, and corporate Democrats' corruption, were involved.

The finance industry has very strong influence in Congress.

Stop the presses.

The Democrats did what they could, which isn't enough, and far more than Republicans would (who voted against even the modest bill except for a few).

The House Democrat as usual would do a lot better but are undermined on every issue by the Senate where the right has more power (in both parties).

 

[Muse]

Whatever. I don't have a duty to ensure someone can make a living in an obsolete unskilled manufacturing job at above market rates. You're not owned anything just because you're an American, and it's not my fault if you can't bother yourself to create a personal skill set to command a job position better than something that can be done by someone with a 1st grade education in Bangaladesh.

You've just epitomized the American me-first syndrome. It's exactly because of that that we're in this ever worsening mess.

 

[Muse]

I think the best way to describe the situation, is that rich are getting richer and poor are getting richer, just at different rates.

We are as a society generally seeing increases for everyone all the time. The only real portion of the society that is getting left behind are the high school dropouts.

Huh? 🙄 30 years ago you didn't see all these homeless people all over the place. Today, they litter the landscape. People pushing shopping cards scrounging for a few dollars and cents to buy a little food. Artists of penury.

 

[bullbert]

Huh? 🙄 30 years ago you didn't see all these homeless people all over the place. Today, they litter the landscape. People pushing shopping cards scrounging for a few dollars and cents to buy a little food. Artists of penury.

Huh? How old are you? I was seeing them all over the place 40 years ago.

 

[sandorski]

In the good ole days you never saw people wandering around town with a shopping cart. Then the Super Markets came and it has been downhill ever since!

 

[soulcougher73]

Guess what? the top 30% are largely college educated and do have very low levels on unemployment.

And guess what? The bottom 40% are often the young, uneducated and lack practical experience. Fortunately people do not stay young and inexperienced, they get skills and move up. Of course we have made it more difficult for these young workers by cranking up minimum wage( to make things fair) during a bad recession and all it has down is to help keep the young and unskilled unemployed(probably a topic for another thread).

This post got me thinking. Could the decline of the middle class be due to the fact poor people usually have way more kids then educated people? And since most people are a product of there environment we are just seeing a huge influx of poor uneducated people, and just a handful or well off children being born. Do this long enough and over time this nation will be 99% poor and 1% wealthy. So maybe its not that the middle class is eroding due to jobs etc but that fact its being breed out.

Alla Idiocracy.

 

[bullbert]

This post got me thinking. Could the decline of the middle class be due to the fact poor people usually have way more kids then educated people? And since most people are a product of there environment we are just seeing a huge influx of poor uneducated people, and just a handful or well off children being born. Do this long enough and over time this nation will be 99% poor and 1% wealthy. So maybe its not that the middle class is eroding due to jobs etc but that fact its being breed out.

Alla Idiocracy.

This was one of Shockley's points, some 30+ years ago.

 

[StageLeft]

Interesting quote:

yes, but despite America's obvious manufacturing decline I think it was this year (?) that China finally caught up, or is pretty close. And although manufacturing is a comparatively small part of the US economy, the US has a population about 1/4 that of China but manufactures as much, so absolutely the US is still a manufacturing powerhouse.

The article in post 275 is interesting and probably true. I hold no illusion that the US' economy is going in the right direction, it hasn't been for a decade or more. Its growth has been fed by debt, and thus its growth has to a great extent been flat.

"Why pay an error-prone order-taker the minimum wage when McDonald's can have the order transmitted via satellite to a central location and from there to the person preparing the order. McDonald’s experiment with this system to date has cut its error rate by 50% and increased its throughput by 20 percent. Technology lets the orders be taken in India or China at costs below the minimum wage and without the liabilities of US employees. "

That just sucks when you're worth so damn little as a worker that even at $8 they are finding ways to get rid of you. It's like the cashiers at walmart who work next to the automated machines. If there was ever a "holy fvck I need to get out of this job" situation it's that.

Craig234 as usual gets it half right, failing like a sycophant of legendary stature to point fingers at Democrats (merely a subset) who love lobbying bucks every much as Republicans.

Lobbying is a major factor in weakening this nation because it continually fvcks up the passage of law to benefit the rich who control the lobbyists. This isn't even a debatable point.

 

[dmcowen674]

Quote:
Originally Posted by charrison
I think the best way to describe the situation, is that rich are getting richer and poor are getting richer, just at different rates.

We are as a society generally seeing increases for everyone all the time. The only real portion of the society that is getting left behind are the high school dropouts.

Huh? 🙄 30 years ago you didn't see all these homeless people all over the place. Today, they litter the landscape. People pushing shopping cards scrounging for a few dollars and cents to buy a little food. Artists of penury.

He is in Texas, he doesn't see any of the homeless.

 

[Craig234]

Craig234 as usual gets it half right, failing like a sycophant of legendary stature to point fingers at Democrats (merely a subset) who love lobbying bucks every much as Republicans.

Lobbying is a major factor in weakening this nation because it continually fvcks up the passage of law to benefit the rich who control the lobbyists. This isn't even a debatable point.

Sometimes Skoorb gets it more right, and sometimes he gets it quite wrong, blindly.

What I actually wrote:

You won't like the answer, but a combination of Republican resistance and desire to gut the bill, and corporate Democrats' corruption, were involved.

Skoorb's own ideology is that the two parties always have to be exactly equally guilty on everything all the time, it seems.

Saying one is better than the other on an issue is never correct, only biased and wrong.

Nevermind any facts.

My position has long been that the Republicans are now a far-right party that has all but driven out liberal and moderate elements and is thoroughly corrupted, while the Democrats are a party at war internally with a corporatist faction and a progressive faction, the corporatists a bit more powerful. I've encouraged us all to support the progressive faction in that war as the only major political faction still really representing the public. This is all based not on what the ignorant project, but on what's happening.

 

[cwjerome]

You've just epitomized the American me-first syndrome. It's exactly because of that that we're in this ever worsening mess.

There is truth to this. A significant quality of a republic is civic virtue. Here is an example:

An angry man living in a community is pissed off several of his neighbors are getting bailed out because of the housing meltdown. He rages against helping them because they made stupid mistakes and wants them to lose their homes because they deserve it. Of course he is foolish because if they were to all lose their homes it would greatly affect the community and most importantly his housing value in a negative way.

What people have to sometimes realize is that we are one people and we are in this together. It's not because we have to love each other all the time, it's because we all have a mutual stake in things. When people around us live well it lifts everyone.

Take something like Brown vs Board of Ed... it's not simply a right thing to do because "fill in the blank." It's the proper thing to do in a Federal Republic like ours because minorities can contribute society and make us better. Besides the moral aspect there is a strong CIVIC self-interest.

Sink or swim has its place yet we all have an interest in helping people from sinking too low if possible. Too many people walk around only caring about what's good for them, and that's a little childlike. Most of the time, what's good for the nation IS good for them. A lot of people who pretend to be patriotic actually rate their immediate power and desires higher than the good of the nation.

 

[Zorkorist]

You've obviously never read Ayn Rand nor do you understand how important man's "machismo" is.

A world of equality, is dystopian, like Huxley's "Brave New World."

The world should be full of inequality!

-John

 

[Jhhnn]

You've obviously never read Ayn Rand nor do you understand how important man's "machismo" is.

A world of equality, is dystopian, like Huxley's "Brave New World."

The world should be full of inequality!

-John

Please. Ayn Rand had no more to do with reality than the cat in the hat, and her usual readership is only a little bit more mature, if still entirely impressionable...

 

[Zorkorist]

LOL, Mr. Toohey.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

..

 

[Zorkorist]

There is truth to this. A significant quality of a republic is civic virtue. Here is an example:

An angry man living in a community is pissed off several of his neighbors are getting bailed out because of the housing meltdown. He rages against helping them because they made stupid mistakes and wants them to lose their homes because they deserve it. Of course he is foolish because if they were to all lose their homes it would greatly affect the community and most importantly his housing value in a negative way.

What people have to sometimes realize is that we are one people and we are in this together. It's not because we have to love each other all the time, it's because we all have a mutual stake in things. When people around us live well it lifts everyone.

Take something like Brown vs Board of Ed... it's not simply a right thing to do because "fill in the blank." It's the proper thing to do in a Federal Republic like ours because minorities can contribute society and make us better. Besides the moral aspect there is a strong CIVIC self-interest.

Sink or swim has its place yet we all have an interest in helping people from sinking too low if possible. Too many people walk around only caring about what's good for them, and that's a little childlike. Most of the time, what's good for the nation IS good for them. A lot of people who pretend to be patriotic actually rate their immediate power and desires higher than the good of the nation.

Nations are born by the success of individual people. Cities are born around a successfull farmer.

Those of you that wish to treat everyone equally, need to remember that it is those unequal people, that develop cities and nations.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

America was not born to coddle to the British. America was born in revolt.

-John