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The Truth About Ethanol And E85

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the other poster is right...prairie grass and other fermentable products besides corn are much more efficient in the production and would reduce the cost of a gallon to under a dollar and at the same time, boost our economy, alleviate fuel wars as well as help our environment..

screw all you retard ney sayers that bandwagon the statements made by paid off politcial economists and petroleum makers

 
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Duh. Corn ethanol is a dead-end. However, prarie grass or sugar cane ethanol yield much greater quantities of ethanol per energy unit used in the production process and Brazil has been using large quantities of Ethanol for years in a sustainable fashion. Ethanol should not be made from corn, that's the wrong way to go at this point.

Link abouy Ethanol in Brazil: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil

Another one: http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=6817

ZV
Yeah but not much acreage in the US is suitable for growing sugar cane which requires a subtropical/tropical climate. Ethanol from grass requires cellulosic decomposition technology which is currently more expensive than corn technology.

 
Originally posted by: foghorn67
Originally posted by: desy
its going to take ethanol biodiesel and technology to eliminate fossil fuels
The shift will be evolutionary with some painfull yrs in the mean time.

It will happen cause there isn't an economically viable alternative to oil other than ethanol/biodiesel.

You farm corn?

There are feedstocks other than corn that can be grown in the US which are much better for ethanol production currently. The agribusiness/farm lobby is very strong so most of the effort goes to crops they are equipped to farm already (namely corn). Biodiesel has the same hurdle to clear with the soy farmers.

My main gripe with that article is that it focuses far to much on corn alone (as does our current ethanol production). It only briefly mentions celulosic ethanol (huge array of waste feedstocks available) which would revolutionize our energy production and could mostly displace gasoline.
 
Originally posted by: Citrix
Meh... last month i caught Larry King doing a interview with the CEO of Conoco. all the CEO would say is that E85 is the wrong way to go and not good for the future.... :disgust:

:Q suprising that a CEO of one of the biggest oil companies would be against E85

You spew enough BS you eventually say something that's right.
 
Originally posted by: Strk
Originally posted by: Citrix
Meh... last month i caught Larry King doing a interview with the CEO of Conoco. all the CEO would say is that E85 is the wrong way to go and not good for the future.... :disgust:

:Q suprising that a CEO of one of the biggest oil companies would be against E85

You spew enough BS you eventually say something that's right.

Yup. Corn-based ethanol is expensive but is favored by the government because it is subsidized. Can't grow enough sugar cane in the USA because there isn't that much land that has the climate to produce sugar cane in the quantities that we would need. Can't import sugar cane because it is expensive because of protectionist tariffs.

Get the idea that the government in general are the ones that aren't all that serious about energy reform?
 
we have currently had Boost98(regular unleaded with 10% ethanol)here in Australia for the past 3 months now...it's pretty good, I had to make a few tuning adjustments to my old 1986 Ford Falcon to get the most out of it, generally I have a little bit more power(that comes with the change in timing and better jetting for the carb)and maybe 1-2mpg better economy...the big difference is in the price, it's 10c a litre cheaper than regular unleaded(currently AU$1.445 litre), which makes a huge difference in the cost of filling up my tank once I chuck in a 4c per litre discount vochure that I get at the local supermarket with every purchase over AU$30.
 
Can't see the article the OP posted, because work blocks bbzzdd. :roll:

However, I read an article recently that said that methanol (closely related to ethanol) from wood pulp was much closer to gasoline in energy produced per gallon, and with the amount of waste wood and paper pulp that's generated every year, would be much easier to obtain AND would become cheaper than ethanol in a shorter period of time!

Of course, then we don't subsidize farmers, do we?? 😉

Electric cars will eventually work, but I think they're going to have to come up with better battery technology than we currently have available. It's simply ridiculous that you have to add that much weight to a car, which I'm sure is a big part of the reason why you have only a 100 mile range before recharging!
 
I did see a study tho, that at current consumption it would take 70% of the US farmland to meet today's use so conservation will be key as well , or the algae thing to be sucessfull
In Canada we could only meet 30% of our needs by using all available ag products
I posted this engine tech link in P&N
Worth a read
 
Originally posted by: K1052
My main gripe with that article is that it focuses far to much on corn alone (as does our current ethanol production). It only briefly mentions celulosic ethanol (huge array of waste feedstocks available) which would revolutionize our energy production and could mostly displace gasoline.

Corn is is our current plan to become "independent" of foreign oil, that is why the article focuses on it. It mentions that the technology to make cost effective cellulosic ethanol doesn't exist and won't for at least six years. It's kind of hard to be rosey about a solution when you're only speculating about its future potential.

 
Originally posted by: desy
I did see a study tho, that at current consumption it would take 70% of the US farmland to meet today's use so conservation will be key as well , or the algae thing to be sucessfull
In Canada we could only meet 30% of our needs by using all available ag products
I posted this engine tech link in P&N
Worth a read

Thats why cellulosic production is so important for the future. Any land than can possibly grow a plant of any kind becomes an energy producer.
 
Originally posted by: gotsmack
maybe .18% today, but much more in the future as we develop more technology to burn ethanol better and produce more ethanol from our domestic crops

and use more gasoline to produce the ethanol...you eviro whackies just like to jump ship and wave your arms in the air about the next new thing you heard some idiot say is good for the environment.

Ethanol costs more than octane when you factor out the government subsidies. It will never cost significantly less if it is produced on a large scale by the same method...ferment corn. corn ethanol is not the answer to high gas prices or pollution.
 
Originally posted by: Dunbar
Originally posted by: K1052
My main gripe with that article is that it focuses far to much on corn alone (as does our current ethanol production). It only briefly mentions celulosic ethanol (huge array of waste feedstocks available) which would revolutionize our energy production and could mostly displace gasoline.

Corn is is our current plan to become "independent" of foreign oil, that is why the article focuses on it. It mentions that the technology to make cost effective cellulosic ethanol doesn't exist and won't for at least six years. It's kind of hard to be rosey about a solution when you're only speculating about its future potential.

Six years (though with the rate investment is moving into alt energy I suspect less) really isn't that long.
 
Originally posted by: MBrown
What ever happened to hydrogen powered cars?

A pipe dream until we build a sh!tload more electrical capacity or some high temp reactors.
 
Originally posted by: jhayx7
I was listening to a podcast of Science Friday yesterday about ethenol and cars. We as americans can do more to save oil than most of these mandates put together. Go check the air pressure in your tires (big waste of gas if they are not properly inflated). Buy a car with better gas mileage and use public transportation! Anyone here see Who Killed The Electric Car??? They said with current tech, an all electric car can go 100 miles on a charge. Electric cars are more reliable than combustion cars because they have very few moving parts and needs no service (except changing batteries when they reach their lifespan).

except it takes forever to charge batteries, and im *pretty* sure there are people who drive more than 100 miles in a day. what happens to them?
 
While the article was better than average overall, it also made the common mistake of assuming that mileage necessarily correlates with btu content. While this may be true for the one vehicle they tested and some others, it is not true for all vehicles. A more comprehensive study has shown that in at least some cars, mileage with a ten percent ethanol mix is identical to pure gasoline. This means that in some vehicles already on the market, ethanol can be used as a 1:1 substitute for gasoline by volume. This means that the overall miles travelled per btu consumed can go up dramatically through the use of ethanol in some current vehicles. (http://www.ethanol.org/documents/ACEFuelEconomyStudy.pdf) According to annual fuel cost estimates from the epa, running e85 in flex fuel vehicles results in either slight savings or slightly extra cost over a year, depending on your vehicle.

The real downside, which was ignored by the article, is that there are no comprehensive metrics published informing us the efficiency of particular vehicles at different percentage ethanol. All we have are a few individual case studies, and epa ratings for ffv's. Congratulations to all the camry owners who can get identical mileage with ten percent ethanol. And the upside which was largely ignored is that some vehicles can get within ten percent of the same mileage as gas even with an e85 mixture. The reason so many ffv's get such poor mileage is that they are not optimized for use with e85. When they start making cars that are optimized for ethanol, the energy efficiency of transportation can be increased substantially.

Oil is running out, that is inevitable. The only realistic alternatives are ethanol and biodiesel. Biodiesel is great, especially when made from filtered frier oil, but most consumer vehicles are not diesel, so it can't be the only answer. Hydrogen would be great for improving the economics of large scale wind farms through demand side management, but is not realistic on any practical timescale for transportation. Fuel cells will be used for utility peaking power and whole building power backup for hospitals and banks for a long time before they have any significance to transportation.

Criticizing ethanol production at this stage is like criticizing computers seventy years ago. You'll never have a computer that fits in a normal sized room. Computers may have specialized uses, but they'll never become mainstream. We wouldn't even be able to make enough vaccuum tubes for half of homes to have a computer in a hundred years.

Ethanol is already economical and energy efficient in climates that are better suited for high energy crops. All it needs in the US is enough of a market for big money investors to feel comfortable betting their futures on introducing large scale production.

Sustainable farming as a great goal to shoot for, but it's a separate issue. Energy used to distill ethanol doesn't have to come from fossil fuels either, it can use wind or solar power. Therefore the energy used to produce it isn't particularly relevant to the reduction in oil consumption or sustainability. Some producers already use renewable energy. As for the price of ethanol tracking the price of oil, the greater the volume of production, the more independent its price can be. Even if it only increases effective fuel supply by one percent, that can still have a tremendous impact on pump prices when demand is so high relative to supply. Furthermore, conventional gasoline supply cannot be increased any further (except by massive usage of the tdp process by changing world technologies.) Ethanol is the only alternative available for use in extending the volume of gasoline supply. Without it we would be more vulnerable to gas supply disruptions and price spikes. At this time point future price spikes are inevitable, but the faster alternative fuels are brought online, the less dramatic the price spikes will be.

Edit: I see some people still are under the false impression that that Pimentel chap from cornell has any relevance to the ethanol discussion. If you read his work carefully you'll realize it's innacurate. http://www.ncga.com/ethanol/debunking/index.htm

According to better studies ( http://www.ncga.com/ethanol/pdfs/Wang2005.pdf )
It takes .74 million Btu of fossil energy to produce 1 million Btu of ethanol. For comparison, it takes 1.23 million Btu of fossil energy to produce 1 million Btu of gasoline.
 
Originally posted by: marvdmartian
However, I read an article recently that said that methanol (closely related to ethanol) from wood pulp was much closer to gasoline in energy produced per gallon, and with the amount of waste wood and paper pulp that's generated every year, would be much easier to obtain AND would become cheaper than ethanol in a shorter period of time!

The problem with Methanol is that it breaks down most of the rubber compounds used in engines today. In fact most cars have warnings against using Methanol blended fuels for that reason. It would be fine for new cars that have Methanol proof rubber, but for the cars on the road today it simply wouldn't work.
 
Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles
Originally posted by: GrammatonJP
I think I read this the other day also... and also heard that the cost of producing ethanol is just as high as using gas...

yet the fact that its renewable and can provide more power with same mileage under a turbo as gas without...

Ethanol is coming whether you might like it not. It certainly doesn't look like it will be a permanent solution (what with Hydro on the way), but it is going to be an alternative.

There is still no proof oil is not a renewable resource. I think scientists are moving away from the theory it comes from dinosaurs and if it does come from decaying animals then animals have died every year and will continue doing so forever.

America is setting on huge amounts of oil we just don?t want to drill for it to protect the environment and because if it isn?t renewable we will be the last ones to have some.
 
a few probs with fuel cells (hydrogen cars) make them impractical for modern roadways.

-You need very highly pressurized hydrogen, or a freaking huge tank. iirc, you need some rediculously huge compressor and a ton of energy to compress the gas to get the same amount of energy in a normal sized gas tank. or you can cool and liquefy it...very cold. The tanks would have to be heavy, insulated, and strong.

-the only fuel cells plausible require platinum catalysts, which are expensive, wear out long before an internal combustion engine would, and are hard to replace without just getting a whole new fuel cell.

-the membranes that divide the Hydrogen and oxygen are difficult to make and not durable.

-you need a lot of energy or electrolysize H2 from water...a lot more than you get out of the engine. this i believe is the only way it could be made at individual stations. it is cheaper to refine from natural gas, but still expensive.

-currently it costs about a million bucks to get the equivalent of a 10 grand car.
 
Not to mention hydrogen has some real issues with it escaping into the atmosphere
Different type of problem as CFC's but just as damaging theoretically

"There is still no proof oil is not a renewable resource. I think scientists are moving away from the theory it comes from dinosaurs and if it does come from decaying animals then animals have died every year and will continue doing so forever. "
Holy Moly just when you thought everybody figured out the world wasn't flat or the sun revolved around us one pops up 😀

 
Ethanol wasn't widely used in the past 50 years and won't be widely used in the next 50 years.
More neo-green hype and ways to subsidize farming.
 
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