The Trillion-Barrel Tar Pit

[LocutusX]

i don't have the time right now to check out your links but it's interesting that they've only become Have Not in the past few years. were they really a Have+ province during the NDP government? if that's the case, why did they entire "Centrist+Anything remotely resembling right of centre" vote join together to put the BC Liberals in power?

 

[Genx87]

Isn't there a lot of oil also in the US that isn't retrievable (b/c of costs?) at the moment, too?

Talked with a man who once worked for a big oil company. He did surveying in the rockies and said there is supposedly lots of oil in the mountains but they cant get at it because the US govt owns the land and enviormental laws protect it.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: LocutusX
i don't have the time right now to check out your links but it's interesting that they've only become Have Not in the past few years. were they really a Have+ province during the NDP government? if that's the case, why did they entire "Centrist+Anything remotely resembling right of centre" vote join together to put the BC Liberals in power?

I don't know the details, but wouldn't be surprised if the Federal Liberals are helping the Provincial Liberals in this case. Another possibility is that the Equalization Payments are being made in part because of last years particularly bad Forest Fire situation, don't know for sure if that has anything to do with it. Something tells me though that BC receiving Equalization Payments is not entirely because it needs it. Under the NDP BC didn't receive EP, though I believe they piled up a good amount of Debt.

As for Center-Right joining up to vote for the Liberals, that was done because the Provincial Liberals are Center-Right. After the catastrophic defeat of Social Credit in the early 90's, BC's Center-Right Party of 50ish years literally died(except 1 4 year period in the 70's in which the NDP was given a chance they totally mucked up). Social Credit tried to run 1 more election, but BC Reform was also brought into being as a Center-Right alternative, the NDP won the next election. The next election saw the BC Reform(which had gathered more support) and a newly invigorated Liberal Party(a party that hadn't elected an MLA in some 20-30 years) which had appointed the former Pro-Business Mayor of Vancouver(Gordon Campbell) as its' leader. The Right was split again allowing the NDP to form their 3rd BC government(first consecutive). The next election a combination of NDP scandals and Center-Right voters not wanting another NDP government saw the Liberals win in an understated landslide picking up 77 seats and leaving the NDP with 2!

Quite often the Provincial Wing of Parties differ significantly with their Federal Wings, though the BC Liberals are very similar in Fiscal style as Martin. I think many make he mistake of equating the Liberal Party with Leftwing politics. This has been the case from the 60's-80's, but is not the basis of the Liberal Party. Liberals(and somehwat the defunct PCs) are Populist Parties, changing as the Voter changes, adapting the Left or Right as needed.

Edit: Some of my details are somewhat off I believe. IIRC, Campbell was not appointed leader until another leader won out first, don't recall his name(Wilson?) though.

 

[Vic]

Alberta tar sand oil is expensive and difficult to extract and refine. If the US were to depend on that source of oil solely, then the cost of oil would go up even further.

 

[Colt45]

It still costs me $2.40 / gal for 87 gas here.. and i'm something like 200mi from the nearest oil pumps.


western canada is pretty energy rich. oil, coal, lumber (i guess that counts) and my province has a fuckload of uranium. and we have a lot of freshwater.

thing is, when the US screws itself up resources wise, our tool politicians will bend over and give it out.

 

[Homerboy]

I dont normally post in ATP&N... I just lurk... but...

There is a tremendous cover article in Junes(?) issue of National Geographic on the world's oil reserves (they even touch on Canada's tarsand stuff).

All in all it comes down to this: most experts agree that the world is QUICKLY heading to the peak of its oil production and that once we hit the peak there is only one way to go from there... down. The middle east will soon regain its dominance of the go-to guys for oil production and they themselves dont even know how much they have in reserves and untapped/undiscovered wells as they really dont have any need as of today to look for anymore as they already have more than they "need".

Regardless, it is a tremendous article in my opinion and should be read by all. Oil is not here forever and should not simply be abused (US is a joke... but China is gaining up on us fast!)

 

[Napalm]

Originally posted by: LocutusX
Alberta is one of only 2 `have` provinces in cda. they`re really conservative and are pissed off at the libs (eternally!). the new lib-ndp coalition will be farther to the left than Chretien`s govt so i expect the seperatism movement to gain new supporters. if Alberta leaves confederation, canada is doomed. we`d have to can universal health care and all that other crap, since without the 8 billion dollars from alberta, we wouldn`t be able to pay for it (and other programs). ontario contributes 4 billion in equalization payments. the other provinces contribute nothing; they`re all takers.

one possibility is increasing corporate tax rates, but Bay street would never allow it. companies would leave canada. and so would i, i`ve just about had it with the high tax rates here.

Here we go again with the "taxes are high in Canada" BS again. If you are poor or middle class your taxes are slightly below below US taxes (and don't forget the services that you do not have access to in the US since that tax dollar goes primarily to military...). If you are upper middleclass you are paying a bit more in tax, and if you are rich, you pay a fair portion more. I'll try and find the link that contains the analysis...

N

 

[M0NEYSH0T]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
We should invade.

Isn't there a lot of oil also in the US that isn't retrievable (b/c of costs?) at the moment, too?

LOL...Invade Canada.

Isn't retrievable? That's because of all the extreme environmentalists losing sleep over...

 

[LocutusX]

Originally posted by: Napalm
Here we go again with the "taxes are high in Canada" BS again. If you are poor or middle class your taxes are slightly below below US taxes (and don't forget the services that you do not have access to in the US since that tax dollar goes primarily to military...). If you are upper middleclass you are paying a bit more in tax, and if you are rich, you pay a fair portion more. I'll try and find the link that contains the analysis...
N

That's not true. Do you even pay taxes? I'm a young I.T. professional, working in the banking district (Bay & Adelaide) of the Centre of the Universe. Taxes ARE high here, as many of my compadres who've worked in the US and abroad will vouch for. I've got people of all income levels working with me.

When comparing take-home salary between here and our corporate WHQ in Texas... new grads get charged 3% less tax there (taken as an AVERAGE rate) *and* they make $6000 more. In fact, all employees in our US offices enjoy much higher salaries and lower taxrates - except for the guys in New York. In NY, which has (relatively) high graduated tax rates, our guys who work in Manhattan make a $hit-load more than us - more than making up for the cost of living - even though their average tax rates are about 1-3% higher than us.

(If I make CA$50k in Ontario, my average tax rate is about 22%; that includes fed and prov. If I make US$50k in New York, my average tax rate is about 23%. But a job that pays $50k here WILL NOT pay $50k in New York - it'll pay $65k at the LEAST!)

And I'm using Ontario as an example, which is one of the lowest taxed CDN provinces (thanks to Harris, I guess. Go him!). You don't even want to think about the Praries, Quebec or the Maritimes! If I was living somewhere there, I'd both be paying higher taxes *AND* making less. Not worth it, considering the suburb of Toronto I live in has a lower cost of living than Montreal, Halifax, Saskatoon etc.

(Best provinces in Canada tax-wise: Nunavut, Ontario, BC, Alberta. Since Nunavut doesn't really count, it's best to live in one of the other 3. They're all comparable, but Ontario has gotten a bit worse thanks to McDoofus' health premiums)

 

[Dari]

Getting that oil out is very expensive. Not worth it...yet.

 

[desy]

Locutus
Pay attention now
You can agree and disagree with various points but it boils down the same

You can also read the book by Mel Hurtig
The vanishing country

 

[LocutusX]

Only a fool would take a report published by a known left-wing think-tank as FACT.

Not to mention they use an article from the Toronto Star as a basis!

Even more foolish is using a LOWER figure of US income as a comparison point, when for most professions the US income is *higher* than the average Canadian income.

The biggest fallacy in that article:

Result: A two-earner family with two children making $50,000 a year in Canada would pay 15.2 per cent in taxes and deductions. An American family of four making a comparable $40,000 in U.S. dollars would pay 15.9 per cent.

A Canadian family with two earners and two children making $75,000 would pay 23.6 per cent. A similar American family making a comparable $60,000 (U.S.) would pay 21.6 per cent.

Nice try but no soup for you.

NOTE: It helps if you`ve actually worked in this country, paid your dues to society, before you start blathering on about how we`re such a capitalist paradise.

 

[desy]

I only pointed out one article there are whole books devoted to the subject
You need to read a little more and focus on a whole ecomy rather thatn niche sectors.
She clearly states her bias in the article and doesn't apologize for it but thte statistics hold up.
I've worked in this country for over 25 years my freind for private companines the gov't and my own buisinesses.
Don't pretend you know, I work as an IT professional as well , never said we were a capitalist paradise? But now that you bring it up, there are many other studies that show a cost of running a buisiness is cheaper in Canada than the US and that was a US study . Simply put the major overhead cost of any buisness is 30% health care in the US, factor in rent, property tax utilites and on and on and the least expensive city Sious Falls SD is still more expensive to do buisiness in than Vancouver our most expensive city to run a buisiness.