The Trillion-Barrel Tar Pit

[etech]

DealMonkey,

Until the idiots took this thread over this could have made for an interesting discussion.

A lot of people aren't aware of the tar sands and there possible impact on future energy needs of the world.

 

[sandorski]

Anyone who likes watching Frontiers of Construction or Monster Machines should probably go to Ft McMurray and take a tour of the Tar Sands(in the summer ). From the age of 8-12 I lived there, pretty cool place(no pun intended). Driving up from Edmonton makes it even more interesting, as you spend 3-4 hours driving through nothing but a marshy forest(muskeg) then suddenly out of nowhere a small city shows up in front of you. Even the Wilderness is quite unique in the area, during a normal summer(not too dry) the moss is 6-12" thick and soaking wet. Other areas are great for wild blueberry pickers. Other than the 6 month winters, it's a fantastic place to live.

 

[etech]

Other than the 6 month winters, it's a fantastic place to live.

Not to take the thread off topic but I've heard the mosquitoes are pretty interesting there.


Are there ecological concerns about removing the tar sands. I've heard of one process where they pump steam down one pipe to loosen the tar and pump it out another.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: etech

Other than the 6 month winters, it's a fantastic place to live.

Not to take the thread off topic but I've heard the mosquitoes are pretty interesting there.


Are there ecological concerns about removing the tar sands. I've heard of one process where they pump steam down one pipe to loosen the tar and pump it out another.

Yes, many concerns, though the companies have been restoring the lands, I don't know how well however.

The area is forest with a thick wet mossy forest floor(peat). The top 1 meter(varies in depth) or so of soil is a very dense clay, which results in many small lakes, ponds, and marshes spread throughout the area. Excellent breeding grounds for mosquitos. When I lived there the only time I saw mosquitos was during camping trips to local lakes, back then the developed areas and surroundings were sprayed very thoroughly, but these days most of the spraying programs have been nixed due to Environmental concerns.

Underneath the clay is sand much of it Tar sand. This is the biggest problem, for without the clay topsoil the Muskeg can't exist.

As far as other methods, I think some Steam only plants are being built, but even Syncrude and Suncor(both open mining method) probably will continue their current methods, then use Steam to get at the leftover oil from mined areas.

 

[DeeKnow]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Imagine it, the US can more than double its land mass in a single day!!!

Go Bush Go!

not to mention, double its median IQ too...

 

[0roo0roo]

its in this months wired magazine. still has only half the amount that the middle east does

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
its in this months wired magazine. still has only half the amount that the middle east does

And still not accessible in the same way... this isn't oil spraying from the Beverly Hillbilly's backyard, it is only profitable to process at relatively high oil prices.

It's definitely a resource, but it's still one that is difficult to tap effectively.

 

[LocutusX]

Alberta is one of only 2 `have` provinces in cda. they`re really conservative and are pissed off at the libs (eternally!). the new lib-ndp coalition will be farther to the left than Chretien`s govt so i expect the seperatism movement to gain new supporters. if Alberta leaves confederation, canada is doomed. we`d have to can universal health care and all that other crap, since without the 8 billion dollars from alberta, we wouldn`t be able to pay for it (and other programs). ontario contributes 4 billion in equalization payments. the other provinces contribute nothing; they`re all takers.

one possibility is increasing corporate tax rates, but Bay street would never allow it. companies would leave canada. and so would i, i`ve just about had it with the high tax rates here.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: LocutusX
one possibility is increasing corporate tax rates, but Bay street would never allow it. companies would leave canada. and so would i, i`ve just about had it with the high tax rates here.

You may be confusing social choices with fiscal ones here. After paying for equivalent health coverage in the United States (for example) you would not necessarily have a lower overall burden on your income compared to Canada. If your choice is that you would rather pay your own way, regardless of whether this costs you personally more or less than in Canada, I can respect that - there are many countries where this is the system; Canada just isn't one of them, and I hope it never is.

Alberta was a have-not province for many years before oil became the big business it is now. I do think they are quite short-sighted since only a generation ago they were about as fiscally viable as the maritime provinces currently, or perhaps more accurately, Saskatchewan. Alberta didn't pull itself up by its bootstraps; they found money flowing in the ground.

I can handle some parts of the reform party's platform, but their insistence that now that Alberta 'has' they want to stop their involvment in the funding of confederation is pretty hard to take.

 

[LocutusX]

3chord, it's not that i don't agree with you, it's that you need to think about the here and now. your points regarding Alberta historically being a have-not province are correct. in fact, only Ontario has never been a reciepient of equalization payments!

there IS some serious dissent brewing in the West, towards both the Feds and even the Klein Tories! separation of ANY of the canadian provinces will be bad for Canada as a whole; separation of Alberta would be ESPECIALLY bad.

this dissent needs to be dealt with before it spirals out of control. i don't have any faith in the Liberals being able to deal with it. in the next prov. election, Klein the Drunk will be replaced by a far-right reformer (my prediction) who will start to make separation noises. if we have a Doofus at the helm (i.e. Paul Martin), who knows what will happen...

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: LocutusX
3chord, it's not that i don't agree with you, it's that you need to think about the here and now. your points regarding Alberta historically being a have-not province are correct. in fact, only Ontario has never been a reciepient of equalization payments!

there IS some serious dissent brewing in the West, towards both the Feds and even the Klein Tories! separation of ANY of the canadian provinces will be bad for Canada as a whole; separation of Alberta would be ESPECIALLY bad.

this dissent needs to be dealt with before it spirals out of control. i don't have any faith in the Liberals being able to deal with it. in the next prov. election, Klein the Drunk will be replaced by a far-right reformer (my prediction) who will start to make separation noises. if we have a Doofus at the helm (i.e. Paul Martin), who knows what will happen...

Well I'll agree with just about all of that - I think every part of Canada is either essential right now, or has the potential to be essential in the future. I'm no fan of Martin (well, maybe as finance minister, but not as PM).

Too bad Charest's hands are so tied in Quebec, or the last few years might have been an opporunity for constitutional reform that might have helped everyone in Canada.

As an Ontario resident, I am constantly thankful that most Ontarions accept equalization payments as a part of living in this country and maintaining certain value systems; if they ever lose this conviction, Canada will fall apart.

 

[Hossenfeffer]

Get 'em!

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: DeeKnow

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Imagine it, the US can more than double its land mass in a single day!!!

Go Bush Go!

not to mention, double its median IQ too...

Considering that the US is the most technologically advanced country in research and development, has by far the most innovative people in the world (especially if you look at it from a high-tech industry viewpoint), has by far the best universities and institutions in the world, etc I don't think it would increase any sort of IQ or any type of intelligence factor.

This is what happens when you embrace mutliculturalism. The US appreciates a nice brain drain to supplement the domestic population.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: DeeKnow

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Imagine it, the US can more than double its land mass in a single day!!!

Go Bush Go!

not to mention, double its median IQ too...

Considering that the US is the most technologically advanced country in research and development, has by far the most innovative people in the world (especially if you look at it from a high-tech industry viewpoint), has by far the best universities and institutions in the world, etc I don't think it would increase any sort of IQ or any type of intelligence factor.

This is what happens when you embrace mutliculturalism. The US appreciates a nice brain drain to supplement the domestic population.

Well you're overstating things pretty dramatically on a lot of fronts here, but the USA is certainly one of the world's leaders in many areas. Not to mention that it's unlikely a country 1/10th your size could join up and double the median IQ (You would need quite an interesting curve to get that done...) we get accused of brain-drain here, too, proverbial taxi-driving PhDs and the like.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: DeeKnow

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Imagine it, the US can more than double its land mass in a single day!!!

Go Bush Go!

not to mention, double its median IQ too...

Considering that the US is the most technologically advanced country in research and development, has by far the most innovative people in the world (especially if you look at it from a high-tech industry viewpoint), has by far the best universities and institutions in the world, etc I don't think it would increase any sort of IQ or any type of intelligence factor.

This is what happens when you embrace mutliculturalism. The US appreciates a nice brain drain to supplement the domestic population.

Well you're overstating things pretty dramatically on a lot of fronts here, but the USA is certainly one of the world's leaders in many areas. Not to mention that it's unlikely a country 1/10th your size could join up and double the median IQ (You would need quite an interesting curve to get that done...) we get accused of brain-drain here, too, proverbial taxi-driving PhDs and the like.

I really don't think I'm overstating things (they all seem to be true and are well documented and discussed in many studies) but I didn't mean anything bad about Canada. Like you said, they're 1/10 the population of the US. But they too support multiculturalism and therefore appreciate the benefits.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: LocutusX
Alberta is one of only 2 `have` provinces in cda. they`re really conservative and are pissed off at the libs (eternally!). the new lib-ndp coalition will be farther to the left than Chretien`s govt so i expect the seperatism movement to gain new supporters. if Alberta leaves confederation, canada is doomed. we`d have to can universal health care and all that other crap, since without the 8 billion dollars from alberta, we wouldn`t be able to pay for it (and other programs). ontario contributes 4 billion in equalization payments. the other provinces contribute nothing; they`re all takers.

one possibility is increasing corporate tax rates, but Bay street would never allow it. companies would leave canada. and so would i, i`ve just about had it with the high tax rates here.

There are 3 Have Provinces: Alberta, British Columbia, and Ontario. Wouldn't be surprised if there comes a 4th in 10-20 years, Newfoundland of all god forsaken places.

Tax Rates: they are higher for sure, but so is Quality of life, especially if/when Health concerns show up. Taxes are currently being cut back as well, so the rates are lowering.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

I really don't think I'm overstating things (they all seem to be true and are well documented and discussed in many studies) but I didn't mean anything bad about Canada. Like you said, they're 1/10 the population of the US. But they too support multiculturalism and therefore appreciate the benefits.

Oh I'm not trying to be insulting or anything, I just think there are quite a few other nations that could make claims to globa leadership, especially in education and some high-tech stuff. I essentially agree with your post, and I certainly think that strong immigration policies are an important part of maintaining world leadership; there's nothing like benefitting from everyone's education system instead of just our own don't you think?

 

[LocutusX]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Well I'll agree with just about all of that - I think every part of Canada is either essential right now, or has the potential to be essential in the future. I'm no fan of Martin (well, maybe as finance minister, but not as PM).

I *may* agree with you on that. I thought *both* the Lib and Tory leaders were poor choices for Prime Ministerial material, but would have made half-decent FM's for a charismatic, statesman-like PM. The Libs can appoint Ken Dryden to be PM... the Tories can get Ben Mulroney. on second thought, let Ben stay with all those screaming girls....

(And Jack Layton? Send him to the Circus, I hear they're in town...)

Too bad Charest's hands are so tied in Quebec, or the last few years might have been an opporunity for constitutional reform that might have helped everyone in Canada.

As an Ontario resident, I am constantly thankful that most Ontarions accept equalization payments as a part of living in this country and maintaining certain value systems; if they ever lose this conviction, Canada will fall apart.

I'm actually a fan of 2 Provincial Liberal parties (neither of them Ontario though, duh!):
- Quebec
- B.C.

I'm glad Charest is trying to fight the unions and as for Campbell, well... there is no other party for BCers who believe in capitalism.

 

[LocutusX]

Originally posted by: sandorski
There are 3 Have Provinces: Alberta, British Columbia, and Ontario. Wouldn't be surprised if there comes a 4th in 10-20 years, Newfoundland of all god forsaken places.

I don't consider BC a "have" province. They're still a net taker rather than giver when it comes to equalization payments, I think. And they're still reeling from all those years of NDP rule...

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: LocutusX
The Libs can appoint Ken Dryden to be PM...

I'm actually a fan of 2 Provincial Liberal parties (neither of them Ontario though, duh!):
- Quebec
- B.C.

I'm glad Charest is trying to fight the unions and as for Campbell, well... there is no other party for BCers who believe in capitalism.

HAHAHA: "He stoned 'em!" I would love it if pundits could say that when Dryden survived some sort of debacle...

I am a big fan of Charest; I do think it's unfortunate he was elected on a platform of 'on't fvck with our sovereignty plans' but he has been good for Quebec and Canada too.

 

[ReiAyanami]

It's a laborious process, to say the least - 2 tons of sand yields just one barrel of oil -

 

[ReiAyanami]

but just in case, we'll send in conan o'brien first to soften them up

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: LocutusX

Originally posted by: sandorski
There are 3 Have Provinces: Alberta, British Columbia, and Ontario. Wouldn't be surprised if there comes a 4th in 10-20 years, Newfoundland of all god forsaken places.

I don't consider BC a "have" province. They're still a net taker rather than giver when it comes to equalization payments, I think. And they're still reeling from all those years of NDP rule...

Nope, BC is a have Province. I'll have to find a link, but it's been a Have for as long as I can remember.

 

[Stunt]

BC is a net reciever of equalization payments last i saw. I would still consider them a have province with 80% of our harvestable lumber. They have the largest water reserves in north america. 3rd largest gdp next to quebec and ontario and quebec too recieves transfers. They have a better climate too...cheaper to heat in the winter. Will be a contributer soon imo. Canada Stats click "canada by the numbers"

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: LocutusX

Originally posted by: sandorski
There are 3 Have Provinces: Alberta, British Columbia, and Ontario. Wouldn't be surprised if there comes a 4th in 10-20 years, Newfoundland of all god forsaken places.

I don't consider BC a "have" province. They're still a net taker rather than giver when it comes to equalization payments, I think. And they're still reeling from all those years of NDP rule...

Nope, BC is a have Province. I'll have to find a link, but it's been a Have for as long as I can remember.

hmm, we both are correct! Sort of. It does seem that BC has slipped to a Have Not, but only the last year or 2. Here are some links:
2001, BC still a have, the article also discusses the whole Equalization issue

More recent showing BC receiving it's first Equalization payment in recent times

A little ditty discussing BCs current situation and prediction of fiscal balance