The Trayvon Martin case -- DC discussion thread

[lotus503]

Purpose of the thread is a place for conversation with Discussion Club rules, vs. the cesspool the P&N thread has become.



Ill start by asking the opinions of the repercussions of the witness 8 news over the last month.

 

[lotus503]

Issues I have with the case I'd like to discuss.

1. Ballistics - Intermediate range, why cant they actually fire the same weapon and ammo into the same shirt/Hoodie brands and sizes at the angles to determine exactly how far 2x2 stippling is? 2 inches 10 inches I want to know.

2. Zimmerman states to serino he had a non working flashlight in his hand when attacked, why is that non working flashlight found some distance away near the body vs where attacked?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I think the fact that Sybrina was present when Crump questioned her for the affidavit he produced as well as when BDLR deposed her is going to result in witness 8's being impeached and massively hurting the prosecution's case against GZ.

 

[lotus503]

I think the fact that Sybrina was present when Crump questioned her for the affidavit he produced as well as when BDLR deposed her is going to result in witness 8's being impeached and massively hurting the prosecution's case against GZ.

I disagree, I think the fact that witness 8 lied about her medical history about the funeral or wake is somewhat immaterial to what she heard on the call.

I think a Jury may very well understand why she did it with the deceased mother in the room (Which is STUUUPID). I agree it erodes her credibility and the more Damage her testimony is the more her credibility will be impacted.

However I don't think she heard much, best she can do is testify to Martins state of mind prior.

 

[Jaskalas]

1. Ballistics - Intermediate range, why cant they actually fire the same weapon and ammo into the same shirt/Hoodie brands and sizes at the angles to determine exactly how far 2x2 stippling is? 2 inches 10 inches I want to know.

You're essentially talking half an arms length or less. Not sure what we'd determine differently with a distinction between 2-10 inches. Perhaps it's not impossible to more accurately determine the distance - but to what end?

Both sides may feel the term Intermediate range, 2-10 inches, is accurate enough for their arguments and/or they have no conflict with it.

2. Zimmerman states to serino he had a non working flashlight in his hand when attacked, why is that non working flashlight found some distance away near the body vs where attacked?

Your question infers that their struggle would not have covered distance, from one point to another. I do not think it is reasonable to suggest they were holding still, without motion.

Is that in conflict with the claim of being straddled and pinned down? Not exactly - being pinned could have occurred after one of them attempted to flee. You also have to ask, how far did Martin move after being shot? Was the flashlight thrown / knocked at a distance?

 

[lotus503]

You're essentially talking half an arms length or less. Not sure what we'd determine differently with a distinction between 2-10 inches. Perhaps it's not impossible to more accurately determine the distance - but to what end? Well given the shot made contact with the clothes but was intermediate with the body the distance matters a lot I think. I dont think the clothes he was wearing could sag 10 inches to produce the contact shot and intermediate range to body of say 10 inches.
It would imply that the shirt was being pulled vs sagging. introduces new questions about those final seconds.

Both sides may feel the term Intermediate range, 2-10 inches, is accurate enough for their arguments and/or they have no conflict with it.



Your question infers that their struggle would not have covered distance, from one point to another. I do not think it is reasonable to suggest they were holding still, without motion.

Is that in conflict with the claim of being straddled and pinned down? Not exactly - being pinned could have occurred after one of them attempted to flee. You also have to ask, how far did Martin move after being shot? Was the flashlight thrown / knocked at a distance? I don't think it does anything but introduce the idea Zimmerman was holding the flashlight the entire time the fight was going on which I think is odd

responses in bold

 

[Jaskalas]

Well given the shot made contact with the clothes but was intermediate with the body the distance matters a lot I think. I dont think the clothes he was wearing could sag 10 inches to produce the contact shot and intermediate range to body of say 10 inches.

It would imply that the shirt was being pulled vs sagging. introduces new questions about those final seconds.

Very interesting idea about the distance and the shirt. You've given me a reason to want to know more.

I know of no reason why it couldn't be attempted even though there are factors like how the clothing hangs on Martin, how wet / worn the material was. Cannot be a perfect recreation of the shot and impact, but I imagine determining the distance should be reasonable.

A key aspect of this case, IMO, is their position to each other at the time of the shot being fired.

I don't think it does anything but introduce the idea Zimmerman was holding the flashlight the entire time the fight was going on which I think is odd

This adds confusion to my understanding of your previous question on the flashlight.

The body and flashlight were a distance apart. I find it reasonable to say the fight did not end in the exact place it started. I also suggest that if he was holding an item, it could have been thrown or knocked out of his hand... and sent flying.

I do not see how the distance infers that "he held onto it".

 

[lotus503]

Very interesting idea about the distance and the shirt. You've given me a reason to want to know more.

I know of no reason why it couldn't be attempted even though there are factors like how the clothing hangs on Martin, how wet / worn the material was. Cannot be a perfect recreation of the shot and impact, but I imagine determining the distance should be reasonable.

A key aspect of this case, IMO, is their position to each other at the time of the shot being fired.



This adds confusion to my understanding of your previous question on the flashlight.

The body and flashlight were a distance apart. I find it reasonable to say the fight did not end in the exact place it started. I also suggest that if he was holding an item, it could have been thrown or knocked out of his hand... and sent flying.

I do not see how the distance infers that "he held onto it".

Lets say for example the fight started at the T where the Key with flashlight was found.

Zimmerman contends that he was holding a non working flashlight which we know to be the second flashlight the bigger one, which wasn't working. When he was first attacked by Martin. The non working Flashlight ends up near the body which is some distance from the T.

He could have thrown it south or he could have held onto it in his hand while the fight was going on or a combination of both. Just seems out of place normally when a person is punched and goes to the ground they drop whatever was in their hands (Unless its a beer)

Furthermore that makes me wonder about the small KeyChain flashlight that was found turned on by the T where Zimmerman contends it got psychical.

So in one hand we have a non working flashlight (the bigger one)
With another we are reaching for our phone.
With another we are holding the Keychain flashlight?

Just doesn't make sense to me is all, not sure what it means.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Lotus, I can understand wanting a version of this discussion here rather than in P&N. That said, having two threads with identical titles is confusing. (It was quite a shock to me to see it here! )If it's alright, I'd like to change this one to something different that also makes more clear that it's about the Trayvon Martin case.

 

[lotus503]

Lotus, I can understand wanting a version of this discussion here rather than in P&N. That said, having two threads with identical titles is confusing. (It was quite a shock to me to see it here! )If it's alright, I'd like to change this one to something different that also makes more clear that it's about the Trayvon Martin case.

Sure thing, I wasn't trying to do anything other than let folks know there is a similar place here to discuss.

Please change it to whatever you see fit.

 

[OCNewbie]

2. Zimmerman states to serino he had a non working flashlight in his hand when attacked, why is that non working flashlight found some distance away near the body vs where attacked?

Serino asks GZ if he had anything in his hands when the altercation began, and GZ says "I think my flashlight". He doesn't state that it's his non-working flashlight, and, IMO, expresses it in such a way that he's not sure. Keep in mind that GZ had two flashlights on him at that time. The smaller one, attached to his keychain, was actually found illuminated, near the T (quite a ways away from where the body was found).

My assumption is that before GZ started making his way back from the east end of the T, at RVC, he probably had put his non-working flashlight in one of his jacket pockets (it had a number of them), and used his small keychain flashlight on the way back to his truck. When TM punched GZ, GZ likely dropped that small, working keychain flashlight near the T. During the scuffling on the ground, and the scooting, etc., and especially when GZ mentions his jacket coming up away from his waist, exposing his firearm, his non-working flashlight (the one found near the body) could have worked its way out of his jacket, thus explaining why it was found there.

 

[lotus503]

Serino asks GZ if he had anything in his hands when the altercation began, and GZ says "I think my flashlight". He doesn't state that it's his non-working flashlight, and, IMO, expresses it in such a way that he's not sure. Keep in mind that GZ had two flashlights on him at that time. The smaller one, attached to his keychain, was actually found illuminated, near the T (quite a ways away from where the body was found).

My assumption is that before GZ started making his way back from the east end of the T, at RVC, he probably had put his non-working flashlight in one of his jacket pockets (it had a number of them), and used his small keychain flashlight on the way back to his truck. When TM punched GZ, GZ likely dropped that small, working keychain flashlight near the T. During the scuffling on the ground, and the scooting, etc., and especially when GZ mentions his jacket coming up away from his waist, exposing his firearm, his non-working flashlight (the one found near the body) could have worked its way out of his jacket, thus explaining why it was found there.

I am going off transcripts, when asked if he had anything in hand at the time of encounter.

https://www.txantimedia.com/?p=1035

Transcript snippet.

Serino:"...At the time of the encounter with him, was there anything in your hand?
Zimmerman: I think my flashlight.
Serino: OK. The flashlight. Was it working or was it not working?
Zimmerman: It was dead.
Serino: It was dead. OK. It was not clicking on. It was in your right hand or left hand?
Zimmerman: I don’t know."

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Thanks Lotus.

I should tell everyone that I probably will not be following this thread closely, because I have not been keeping up on this case and I don't have enough context to meaningfully contribute. So, if things start to go off the rails and I don't notice, please use the report feature.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Well given the shot made contact with the clothes but was intermediate with the body the distance matters a lot I think. I dont think the clothes he was wearing could sag 10 inches to produce the contact shot and intermediate range to body of say 10 inches.
It would imply that the shirt was being pulled vs sagging. introduces new questions about those final seconds.

I would think had TM's jacket been pulled downward when the shot was fired there would have a different hole pattern rather than what was seen.

 

[lotus503]

I would think had TM's jacket been pulled downward when the shot was fired there would have a different hole pattern rather than what was seen.

You very well may be right, but I woudl love to see an exact recreation to find out for sure.

Also if the Tea can was in his pocket when shot it would cause extra sag id imagine. Then again the 2x2 stippling may be from 2-4 inches as suggested by that expert in Texas, which is well within normal sag range.

 

[OCNewbie]

I am going off transcripts, when asked if he had anything in hand at the time of encounter.

https://www.txantimedia.com/?p=1035

Transcript snippet.

Serino:"...At the time of the encounter with him, was there anything in your hand?
Zimmerman: I think my flashlight.
Serino: OK. The flashlight. Was it working or was it not working?
Zimmerman: It was dead.
Serino: It was dead. OK. It was not clicking on. It was in your right hand or left hand?
Zimmerman: I don’t know."

I was too. If you listen to the actual audio recording of that interview (I'm having trouble finding that exact part now), the way GZ says "I think my flashlight" seems like he's just offering Serino his best guess. I honestly don't think GZ's memory is too clear about that exact moment. I say that partially because GZ makes no mention of his smaller flashlight, which was found on/illuminated, by the T, when Serino asks him what was in his hands. I wish Serino had asked him how that little flashlight had gotten there.

 

[OCNewbie]

I disagree, I think the fact that witness 8 lied about her medical history about the funeral or wake is somewhat immaterial to what she heard on the call.

I think a Jury may very well understand why she did it with the deceased mother in the room (Which is STUUUPID). I agree it erodes her credibility and the more Damage her testimony is the more her credibility will be impacted.

However I don't think she heard much, best she can do is testify to Martins state of mind prior.

The fact that Dee Dee altered her statement in any way, because of Sybrina's presence, raises the issue that she may have also altered her statement in other ways, perhaps things "she heard on the call" that may have reflected negatively on Trayvon. She was obviously considering the fact that Sybrina was in the room while giving her statement(s), which shouldn't have been a consideration imposed upon her at such a time.

 

[lotus503]

I was too. If you listen to the actual audio recording of that interview (I'm having trouble finding that exact part now), the way GZ says "I think my flashlight" seems like he's just offering Serino his best guess. I honestly don't think GZ's memory is too clear about that exact moment. I say that partially because GZ makes no mention of his smaller flashlight, which was found on/illuminated, by the T, when Serino asks him what was in his hands. I wish Serino had asked him how that little flashlight had gotten there.

Yeah there could be many ways or reasons he does say it. But the fact is he does in fact say he thinks his non working flashlight was in his hand, he says he doesn't know which hand so he could have said the same response to the previous question but doesn't.

Which leads me to think anyway he had his bigger non working flashlight in his hand when it started (The one found some distance away from the T), we know he has the small one because its found near the T around 6 feet from what I have read.

We also know when this starts he says he goes for his phone.

 

[Druidx]

The fact that Dee Dee altered her statement in any way, because of Sybrina's presence, raises the issue that she may have also altered her statement in other ways, perhaps things "she heard on the call" that may have reflected negatively on Trayvon. She was obviously considering the fact that Sybrina was in the room while giving her statement(s), which shouldn't have been a consideration imposed upon her at such a time.

It's already been proven that she changed her testimony via the ABC tape. She claimed she heard GZ say one thing, then changed it to something else when prompted by Crump.

 

[lotus503]

The fact that Dee Dee altered her statement in any way, because of Sybrina's presence, raises the issue that she may have also altered her statement in other ways, perhaps things "she heard on the call" that may have reflected negatively on Trayvon. She was obviously considering the fact that Sybrina was in the room while giving her statement(s), which shouldn't have been a consideration imposed upon her at such a time.

It could totally play out that way and will be up to both the defense and state to frame this for a jury in a manner that supports their side.

 

[lotus503]

It's already been proven that she changed her testimony via the ABC tape. She claimed she heard GZ say one thing, then changed it to something else when prompted by Crump.

that which I did not know could have bigger implication than the funeral business.

 

[lotus503]

I was too. If you listen to the actual audio recording of that interview (I'm having trouble finding that exact part now), the way GZ says "I think my flashlight" seems like he's just offering Serino his best guess. I honestly don't think GZ's memory is too clear about that exact moment. I say that partially because GZ makes no mention of his smaller flashlight, which was found on/illuminated, by the T, when Serino asks him what was in his hands. I wish Serino had asked him how that little flashlight had gotten there.

if we are going off the same transcript then why does mine include him saying it wasn't working and yours doesnt?

"Serino asks GZ if he had anything in his hands when the altercation began, and GZ says "I think my flashlight". He doesn't state that it's his non-working flashlight."

In my transcript he specifically say that it wasn't working

 

[lotus503]

Lots of SPD on this list

http://www.gzdocs.com/documents/0313/witness_list.pdf

 

[Druidx]

if we are going off the same transcript then why does mine include him saying it wasn't working and yours doesnt?

"Serino asks GZ if he had anything in his hands when the altercation began, and GZ says "I think my flashlight". He doesn't state that it's his non-working flashlight."

In my transcript he specifically say that it wasn't working

I think this is just confusion on GZ part. Later in the interview when asked, he said he delayed walking back because it was dark and his flashlight was dead. It makes sense that me would have used the little key chain light since it was found on at the T

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

The fact that Dee Dee altered her statement in any way, because of Sybrina's presence, raises the issue that she may have also altered her statement in other ways, perhaps things "she heard on the call" that may have reflected negatively on Trayvon. She was obviously considering the fact that Sybrina was in the room while giving her statement(s), which shouldn't have been a consideration imposed upon her at such a time.

The thing is, her initial statement to the police is inadmissible hearsay. Her only influence on the case will come if and when the state calls her as a witness. If they do, she can be impeached about inconsistencies in her story or her admitted falsehoods. The circumstances under which her initial statement was made are not of vital importance because she will be forced to defend whatever version of events she provides at trial, under cross examination.