The torture tape fingering Bush as a war criminal

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
It's amazing that, even after more than 30 years, so many people still don't understand anything about the mistakes made during the Vietnam War - very few of which were made by the troops themselves, or Nixon.

Which is part of why the Bushwhacko neocons were able to drag us into their travesty in Iraq, now. But the TRAITOR IN CHIEF had other, far more precise and relevant warnings about his folly in Iraq than the examples of Vietnam. In his memoirs, A World Transformed (1998), written with Brent Scowcroft, on pp. 489 - 490, George H.W. Bush predicted exactly what has happened:

Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under those circumstances, there was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different--and perhaps barren--outcome.

Sound familiar? :Q If only his idiot son could read!

Nixon wasn't the only President with responsibility for Vietnam. LBJ lied to Congress and the American people in much the same way as the Bushwhackos did to pimp their war in Iraq. Nixon's example is relevant because, like Bush, he shredded the Constitutional rights of American citizens he considered to be his political "enemies."

However, the level to which the Bushwhackos have taken their crimes, coupled with the far greater ability to which they could do so in the the age of computers and the Internet, make them far and away the worst criminal administration in our nation's history.

IMPEACH BUSH AND CHENEY, NOW! :thumbsdown: :| :thumbsdown:

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

That would only work if the "international community" actually got off of their collective asses to "bail the USA's butt out of Iraq." As it stands, most of the world hasn't done jack sh*t, so there won't be any need for a "down payment" or trials at the Hague.

It's crazy that our fantasies are so different from one another. Mine involve the defeat of America's foreign enemies, while yours involve targets much closer to home - other Americans.

To each their own, I guess... we all have our own missions in life. Perhaps we'll just have to wait and see whose missions get better results!

good luck!

This sort of post is exactly the problem with this debate. You are trying to falsely characterize war opponents and opponents of imperialist occupation as somehow being anti-American. This is obviously false.

I also hope you were not trying to insinuate that the Vietnam war was somehow winnable by the US. That would be an awfully foolish argument.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: Harvey


However, the level to which the Bushwhackos have taken their crimes, coupled with the far greater ability to which they could do so in the the age of computers and the Internet, make them far and away the worst criminal administration in our nation's history.

IMPEACH BUSH AND CHENEY, NOW! :thumbsdown: :| :thumbsdown:

If you want to measure and compare this one to any other, you will need to wait until the gavel comes down.

If you want to measure this administration based upon body counts, they will likely not even garner an honerable mention in history.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Ozoned

If you want to measure and compare this one to any other, you will need to wait until the gavel comes down.

If you want to measure this administration based upon body counts, they will likely not even garner an honerable mention in history.

I measure this adminstration by the level of their treachery in shredding the U.S. Constitution. The evidence already in the public domain is more than sufficient to make the case for TREASON and MURDER.

I'm expecting the brown nosed Bushwhacko neocon sycophants to again demand the same documented proof I and others have posted many times. Then, when I do, they'll whine that I repost "macros" from my previous posts. :roll:

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: Harvey
IMPEACH BUSH AND CHENEY, NOW! :thumbsdown: :| :thumbsdown:

:roll:

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: Harvey
IMPEACH BUSH AND CHENEY, NOW! :thumbsdown: :| :thumbsdown:

:roll:

Cute. Too bad you can't put some real facts behind your sham indignant icon, Pabby. :Q

 

[CallMeJoe]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Tell us oh educated one how trying Bush for War crimes would benefit this nation in any way?

Are you at all familiar with the principle of the Rule of Law? It underlies any working democratic republic. Unfortunately, our current administration and its defenders have no respect for Law.

You morons who want Bush tried for war crimes I bet are the same ones who spit on our troops when they came home from Vietnam!!

I must dispute the label of "moron". Furthermore, although I managed to avoid station in VietNam, I served in the USAF from 1972 to 1976 and never spat on my own uniform, or on any of my brothers in service.

Of course it wouldn`t suprise me at all if most of you can`t even vote!

A Non sequitur. As irrelevant as my commenting on your inability to spell any better than you argue.

Don`t get me wrong we should not be in Iraq at all...but...but it`s people like you that bother those of us who see the bigger picture!!

It's people like you that bother those of us who live in the real world.

 

[Lemon law]

As if GWB&co. fantasies that flop at near the speed of light has any place in the real world?

Lets call a spade a spade, GWB&co. are as morally bankrupt as a Stalin or Hitler without the saving grace of even any initial competence.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Lemon law
And its somewhat been a pet fantasy of mine that the international community might demand Bush and Cheney be turned over to the Hague as a down payment price for bailing the USA's butt out on Iraq.

That would only work if the "international community" actually got off of their collective asses to "bail the USA's butt out of Iraq." As it stands, most of the world hasn't done jack sh*t, so there won't be any need for a "down payment" or trials at the Hague.

It's crazy that our fantasies are so different from one another. Mine involve the defeat of America's foreign enemies, while yours involve targets much closer to home - other Americans.

To each their own, I guess... we all have our own missions in life. Perhaps we'll just have to wait and see whose missions get better results!

good luck!

They are doing exactly what we should have been doing. Abiding by a non-interventionist foreign policy.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
It's crazy that our fantasies are so different from one another. Mine involves the downfall of America's enemies FOREIGN OR DOMESTIC while yours involves complete ignorance towards the rule of law and the principles of the Constitution of this country.

Right now, I have no domestic enemies. I also have a deeper understanding and respect for the Constitution than you ever will.

But hey, you have shown time and time again that you value team victory (Repub or American) over doing what is just (doing things in a legal ethical and humane manner).

Please cite examples. It should be easy since you believe it's happened "time and time again."

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Tell us oh educated one how trying Bush for War crimes would benefit this nation in any way?

It's mandatory history to tell the world and those Americans who follow us that we really believe in our Constitution and the rule of law.

You morons who want Bush tried for war crimes I bet are the same ones who spit on our troops when they came home from Vietnam!![/quote]

I and others have posted the evidence that supports case for war crimes, as well as murder and treason. Are you the moron who would let him and his criminal cabal get away with their heinous crimes? :shocked:

Of course it wouldn`t suprise me at all if most of you can`t even vote!

I'm 66 years old, and I've voted in every Presidential election since 1962.

Don`t get me wrong we should not be in Iraq at all...but...but it`s people like you that bother those of us who see the bigger picture!!

We don't have to get you wrong. You've done a splended job of losing sight of the biger picture all by yourself.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

If you guys claiming Bush is a war criminal wait another year or so maybe Andrew Sullivan will bestow the Von Hoffmann Award on you as a group?

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
If you guys claiming Bush is a war criminal wait another year or so maybe Andrew Sullivan will bestow the Von Hoffmann Award on you as a group?

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
If you guys claiming Bush is a war criminal wait another year or so maybe Andrew Sullivan will bestow the Von Hoffmann Award on you as a group?

We've already proven it many times. You're the lying, brown nosed Bushwhacko sycophant who always denies it but can't refute the evidence.

I won't waste my time posting it again. You'll just lie again.

Go home and practice, little boy. :laugh:

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
If you guys claiming Bush is a war criminal wait another year or so maybe Andrew Sullivan will bestow the Von Hoffmann Award on you as a group?

We've already proven it many times. You're the lying, brown nosed Bushwhacko sycophant who always denies it but can't refute the evidence.

I won't waste my time posting it again. You'll just lie again.

Go home and practice, little boy. :laugh:

All you've even proven is that you somehow manage to get a wireless signal in your padded cell, Harvey.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
If you guys claiming Bush is a war criminal wait another year or so maybe Andrew Sullivan will bestow the Von Hoffmann Award on you as a group?

...And we'll get to watch the nutjobs tell us how Sullivan is a Conservative and a true Republican, et al. This should be fun! :laugh:

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
All you've even proven is that you somehow manage to get a wireless signal in your padded cell, Harvey.

:laugh:

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

All you've even proven is that you somehow manage to get a wireless signal in your padded cell, Harvey.

Said the child in total denial of reality. Talk to us when you can post ANYTHING other than the same old bullshit and denials.

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
All you've even proven is that you somehow manage to get a wireless signal in your padded cell, Harvey.

:laugh:

Hey, Pabster -- I'm still waiting for you to put fact ONE on the table in response to my previous post. If you can't you're just another lying, brown nosed Bushwhacko sycophant with nothing to say and far too many words to say it.

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: Harvey
IMPEACH BUSH AND CHENEY, NOW! :thumbsdown: :| :thumbsdown:

:roll:

Cute. Too bad you can't put some real facts behind your sham indignant icon, Pabby. :Q

Still waiting...

:clock:

:clock:

:clock:

< crickets >

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
If you guys claiming Bush is a war criminal wait another year or so maybe Andrew Sullivan will bestow the Von Hoffmann Award on you as a group?

We've already proven it many times. You're the lying, brown nosed Bushwhacko sycophant who always denies it but can't refute the evidence.

I won't waste my time posting it again. You'll just lie again.

Go home and practice, little boy. :laugh:

So if you've "proven" it, why are you still voting for the people that refuse to do anything about it? Why aren't you calling all of congress traitors, when they refuse to do anything about this "proven" murderous traitor? I mean, they obviously have the proof that you have, yet they refuse to do anything about a murderous traitor in the White House. The American people would be 100 percent behind congress impeaching Bush if there was this undeniable "proof" that you claim.

 

[Sinsear]

Abu Zubaydah was tortured? Big fvcking deal. He ought to be lucky that he's still alive.

I'm glad any "interrogation" tapes were destroyed. Reason being, is that in this information age society some jackass, much like the vulture reporter(s) clamoring for this story, would leak it over youtube and that would make te cartoon riots look like standing in line for ice cream.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: JD50

So if you've "proven" it, why are you still voting for the people that refuse to do anything about it?

I did vote for those who said they would do something about it. I have a chance to vote again since they haven't.

Why aren't you calling all of congress traitors, when they refuse to do anything about this "proven" murderous traitor?

You haven't read my e-mails to my Senators and Representative, or you wouldn't be asking dumb questions about what I've already done several times.

The American people would be 100 percent behind congress impeaching Bush if there was this undeniable "proof" that you claim.

< sigh > Another one in complete denial. Are you going to be another one to piss and moan that I'm reposting "macros" if you force me to quote foot long lists of facts and links to support the charges... YET AGAIN? :roll:

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Sinsear
Abu Zubaydah was tortured? Big fvcking deal. He ought to be lucky that he's still alive.

I'm glad any "interrogation" tapes were destroyed. Reason being, is that in this information age society some jackass, much like the vulture reporter(s) clamoring for this story, would leak it over youtube and that would make te cartoon riots look like standing in line for ice cream.

Yup, there could be so much flack people might start demanding the execution of the treasonous bastards that did the torture and authorized it. It would be a real national disgrace to have Bush doing time in the Hague.

 

[Corbett]

I guess Im one of the few who dont see anything wrong with torturing Al Qaeda members.

 

[Corbett]

Originally posted by: Harvey
You haven't read my e-mails to my Senators and Representative, or you wouldn't be asking dumb questions about what I've already done several times.

I happen to have a copy of that email. It looks something like this :

Originally posted by: Harvey
Dear elected official,

The fact of the matter is that brown nosing neocon ass lickers are so vested in pimping any transitory upturn in Iraq that they're reduced to vain attempts to paint over the fact that their TRAITOR IN CHIEF and his criminal cabal of incompetent MURDERERS, TRAITORS and LIARS are the ones who dug us into this hell in the first place.

As of 12/14/07 11:33 am EDT, 3,891 American troops are DEAD, tens of thousands more are wounded, scarred and disabled for life in this criminal administration's war of LIES, and we've squandered TRILLIONS of dollars that could have provided REAL security, along with maintaining infrastructure, education, medicine and more.

Crow about any "tidbit of success" your fucking surge when it can make even the slightest measurable dent in all the damage the Bushwhackos have done to our once great nation since they took office.

The < puke > "surge" is working??? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Hoorah for your fscking TRAITOR IN CHEIF and his criminal cabal. If they'd done anything right during their entire term of office, the war in Iraq wouldn't exist, and the death toll of American troops, there, would be ZERO.

Y'er doin' a heck of a job, Bushie!

George W. Bush and his criminal cabal should be tried for MURDER for every American who has died in their war of LIES. The should be tried for TREASON for shredding the rights guaranteed to all American citizens under the U.S. Constitution.

Relaxing didn't do shit to stop the Bushwhackos from starting their war of LIES. Maybe, if more people had shown enough guts to stand up and oppose them before they started, we'd have 3,807 fewer dead Americans and a Constitution that still meant something.

You're upset with the Taliban? Good! So am I. I'm just as pissed that the Bushwhackos' agenda included rallying a pseudo-Christian taliban movement against those who were intelligent enough to oppose them in our country.

I believe strongly about what I write, but I'm very calm about doing it simply because losing control wouldn't accomplish anything.

As of 12/22/07 11:03 am EDT, 3,897 American troops have died, and tens of thousands more are wounded, scarred and disabled for life in their war of LIES. Maybe you should send all of their families and friends holiday greetings with your lame ass excuses for that. I'm sure it will be a great consolation to them.

I'm just as sure the hundreds of thousands of dead, wounded and displaced Iraqis whose lives have been shattered are just as thrilled.

Im sure they took you just as seriously as we here at P/N do.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: Corbett
I guess Im one of the few who dont see anything wrong with torturing Al Qaeda members.

Morals mean anything to you?

 

[Lemon law]

If some reactionary bastards on this forum accuse more liberal domestic posters like myself and others of jumping past the iron clads evidence that GWB&co's plausible denial ability is totally implausible, those deniers of reality should also realize that GWB hatred is shared by the rest of the world in far higher proportions than occurs in the USA domestically.

As it is, GWB support is decidedly a minority in the US itself and almost non existent in the rest of the world. To pretend that will not have dire consequences for the USA in even the near term future strains all belief. If the USA itself does not repudiate and jail GWB&co., the rest of the world may well demand it. Regime change cuts both ways. And while the US is dominant militarily, we are economically very vulnerable.