The thing that bothers me about some liberals...

[BarneyFife]

Some bend over backwards to defend Muslims but if it was Christian fundies burning up the town, they'd be all over them. Why is that? It seems like Muslims get a free pass and the left is going to pay for it in Europe just like its paid for it in the US with the Republicans winning everything. The French's socialist pacifism is killing them right now. They are afraid to roll out the tanks and the army to get the situation under control. Right now the Muslims are trying to take control of Europe and the Europeans better wake up.

 

[Duvie]

QFT....

liberalism for the most part is a secularlist movement led by groups of ppl who have no religious belief and want the breakdown of religion cause it makes it easier to pass its agendas....Look at countires like sweden, denmark, and the netherlands. It is rumored only 3-5% ppl go to church there. It is also the countries that are the most socialist and have allowed some of the more morally questionable activities to be legalized in their societies. all of those things could not have happend until church membership had reached those levels. A godless country will bring moral decay and thus homosexuality, drug legalization, assisted suicide, abortion (partial and late term) will begin to flourish.

DECADENCE OF SOCIETY...I think you will see thorughout history the greatest socieites eventually fell to this same type of thing....



For me it is quite clear the Muslim religion needs a mjor overhaul...They make up no more then 1/4 of the ppl on this planet yet they make up 90+% of all the major conflicts abroad. They cannot seem to coexist with others. This will need to change for this 7th century religion to remain viable in the new world...mark my words on that....

 

[Rainsford]

I don't think you really understand the liberal point of view here. It's not that we should excuse the fundies, it's that we are able to distinguish between fundies and everyone else. I am smart enough to realize that bin Laden doesn't represent all Muslims any more than priests molesting little boys represents all Christians. Muslims get a "free pass" because "Muslims" haven't done anything. The attitude of those who want to crack down on the Muslims in general is exactly where France's problems are coming from.

There are a lot of Muslims in the US, but why don't we have the same problems France and Europe in general do? It's not because they are too nice and liberal and pacifist. Actually, it's exactly the opposite. Everything I've heard suggests that Muslims are second class citizens in Europe. Ironic as it is, we don't have the same problem in America because we are more liberal than Europe when it comes to accepting differences. This doesn't excuse what's happening in France, but it suggests that "rolling out the tanks" is not going to solve the problem in the long run. They could certainly put down this riot with overwhelming force...but that would just cause a larger rift and the next time would probably be worse.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Duvie
QFT....

liberalism for the most part is a secularlist movement led by groups of ppl who have no religious belief and want the breakdown of religion cause it makes it easier to pass its agendas....Look at countires like sweden, denmark, and the netherlands. It is rumored only 3-5% ppl go to church there. It is also the countries that are the most socialist and have allowed some of the more morally questionable activities to be legalized in their societies. all of those things could not have happend until church membership had reached those levels. A godless country will bring moral decay and thus homosexuality, drug legalization, assisted suicide, abortion (partial and late term) will begin to flourish.

DECADENCE OF SOCIETY...I think you will see thorughout history the greatest socieites eventually fell to this same type of thing....



For me it is quite clear the Muslim religion needs a mjor overhaul...They make up no more then 1/4 of the ppl on this planet yet they make up 90+% of all the major conflicts abroad. They cannot seem to coexist with others. This will need to change for this 7th century religion to remain viable in the new world...mark my words on that....

And how exactly do you propose we do that? If history has taught us anything, it's that trying to force religious change on a huge population of religious people results in some of the worst conflicts. I agree that there seems to be some issue in the Muslim community at the moment, but whining about it isn't a solution. Declaring war on Islam doesn't seem like a good idea either, they "only" make up 1/4 of the people on the planet...do you really want to be at war with all of those people?

So what IS the solution? Frankly I think the only workable solution is to deal with the problem individuals and groups within the Muslim community AS individuals. Deal with the bin Laden's and the like when they pose a threat, and go out of our way to make it clear that we WANT the rest of the Muslims on our side. The overall change will have to come from them.

That point is the key that most people seem to be missing. You people all act like Islam and all Muslims are the enemy. And whether you are right or wrong, we can't possibly "win" this with that attitude. So the religious nutjobs and armchair tough guys on our side need to cram a sock in it, satisfying your ego and fanatical beliefs is less important than moving society forward.

 

[mOeeOm]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
I don't think you really understand the liberal point of view here. It's not that we should excuse the fundies, it's that we are able to distinguish between fundies and everyone else. I am smart enough to realize that bin Laden doesn't represent all Muslims any more than priests molesting little boys represents all Christians. Muslims get a "free pass" because "Muslims" haven't done anything. The attitude of those who want to crack down on the Muslims in general is exactly where France's problems are coming from.

There are a lot of Muslims in the US, but why don't we have the same problems France and Europe in general do? It's not because they are too nice and liberal and pacifist. Actually, it's exactly the opposite. Everything I've heard suggests that Muslims are second class citizens in Europe. Ironic as it is, we don't have the same problem in America because we are more liberal than Europe when it comes to accepting differences. This doesn't excuse what's happening in France, but it suggests that "rolling out the tanks" is not going to solve the problem in the long run. They could certainly put down this riot with overwhelming force...but that would just cause a larger rift and the next time would probably be worse.

:thumbsup:

 

[mOeeOm]

For me it is quite clear the Muslim religion needs a mjor overhaul...They make up no more then 1/4 of the ppl on this planet yet they make up 90+% of all the major conflicts abroad. They cannot seem to coexist with others. This will need to change for this 7th century religion to remain viable in the new world...mark my words on that....

Ahahahahaha riiiiiiight

 

[mAdMaLuDaWg]

Not to thread crap.. but isn't it time to BAN m0ee0m

 

[sandorski]

Another lame attempt to blame Librals for everything. Good job!

 

[doody]

Originally posted by: Duvie
QFT....

liberalism for the most part is a secularlist movement led by groups of ppl who have no religious belief and want the breakdown of religion cause it makes it easier to pass its agendas....

Just spouting? Or do you have an proof of that?

Look at countires like sweden, denmark, and the netherlands. It is rumored only 3-5% ppl go to church there.

They are also countries that have some of the best living standards in the world, what exactly is your rant about again?

It is also the countries that are the most socialist and have allowed some of the more morally questionable activities to be legalized in their societies.

England has a church going rate of 10% do they also have "questionable" activities also?

all of those things could not have happend until church membership had reached those levels.

Thanks for telling us that, who needs studies on such things when we can come on a forum like this and get incredible knowledge from such an enlightened individual such as yourself! What a time saver!

A godless country will bring moral decay and thus homosexuality, drug legalization, assisted suicide, abortion (partial and late term) will begin to flourish.

So a country that doesn't go to church much suddenly has modified genes to make more people gay? Can you point to any data proving this or are you just spouting more right wing goose stepping garbage?

Apart from the Netherlands, which is one country of many in Europe, any others that have legalized drugs? Perhaps they should act like the US and borrow billions of dollars from foreign countries to continue your failed "war on drugs" seems like the people taking drugs are winning!

Assisted suicide happens in the US, or are you just talking about women in comas for 10+ yrs who have half their brain rotten away?

Last time I checked abortion was legal in the United States, and if you are hoping that that changes soon, get ready for some riots here...

DECADENCE OF SOCIETY...I think you will see thorughout history the greatest socieites eventually fell to this same type of thing....

Could say exactly the same thing about the US, do you really think an empire built on cheap oil will last as long as EG the Roman empire? I doubt it.

For me it is quite clear the Muslim religion needs a mjor overhaul...They make up no more then 1/4 of the ppl on this planet yet they make up 90+% of all the major conflicts abroad. They cannot seem to coexist with others. This will need to change for this 7th century religion to remain viable in the new world...mark my words on that....

Thanks again for your words of wisdom....

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Duvie
QFT....

liberalism for the most part is a secularlist movement led by groups of ppl who have no religious belief and want the breakdown of religion cause it makes it easier to pass its agendas....Look at countires like sweden, denmark, and the netherlands. It is rumored only 3-5% ppl go to church there. It is also the countries that are the most socialist and have allowed some of the more morally questionable activities to be legalized in their societies. all of those things could not have happend until church membership had reached those levels. A godless country will bring moral decay and thus homosexuality, drug legalization, assisted suicide, abortion (partial and late term) will begin to flourish.

DECADENCE OF SOCIETY...I think you will see thorughout history the greatest socieites eventually fell to this same type of thing....

Who are you to set the moral compass of the nation on these topics? What an hugely arrogant presumption.

Most of what you listed I would consider to be aspects of people's lives that the government has almost zero business setting moral standards in (sex, aboriton, drug prohibition, etc..).

 

[mOeeOm]

Originally posted by: mAdMaLuDaWg
Not to thread crap.. but isn't it time to BAN m0ee0m

For? :S Not agreeing with you?

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Another lame attempt to blame Librals for everything. Good job!

Every notice how many people seem to do this? Hell, the conservatives have all the power...and the best they can come up with is bitching about the liberals. I guess they figure it's what got them into power in the first place, it should work in keeping them there

 

[BarneyFife]

The problem is complex. First, people have to realize that the French or the Germans want to be by themselves. They want Germans living next door and to continue to live the German culture etc... They don't want Muslim Mohammed from Algeria next door. Unfortunately, many people on this board do not understand this. Its not racism. They are Germans, they live in Germany, and want to keep it that way. You can't compare America because America is a mix of everything. Secondly, their is a sect of extreme left wingers in many of these countries that are too nice and this is how the immigration problem started. You'll find that many folks in these countries don't want immigrants because as soon as they come in, crime goes up. I believe that many Europeans have conservative social views and socialistic economic views and money$$$ trumps them so they vote left wing. With the immigration problem, they need a tough stance. Force is going to be the only way because if you bargain with these people, they will keep on doing it over and over and soon take over the country. You can't send the message that we'll give you anything you want as soon as you start burning things down. These people are setting themselves up for mass deportation with their actions. They can't just come over to France and demand jobs and for them to treat them like equals. If I owned a business in France, I'd definately hire a French person who shares the same culture/religion as me then a Muslim from Africa and I'm sure the majority of French believe in that view. I spent a month in Europe this past summer so I have a little insight on the immigration problem from the locals and family members.

 

[Duvie]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Duvie
QFT....

liberalism for the most part is a secularlist movement led by groups of ppl who have no religious belief and want the breakdown of religion cause it makes it easier to pass its agendas....Look at countires like sweden, denmark, and the netherlands. It is rumored only 3-5% ppl go to church there. It is also the countries that are the most socialist and have allowed some of the more morally questionable activities to be legalized in their societies. all of those things could not have happend until church membership had reached those levels. A godless country will bring moral decay and thus homosexuality, drug legalization, assisted suicide, abortion (partial and late term) will begin to flourish.

DECADENCE OF SOCIETY...I think you will see thorughout history the greatest socieites eventually fell to this same type of thing....



For me it is quite clear the Muslim religion needs a mjor overhaul...They make up no more then 1/4 of the ppl on this planet yet they make up 90+% of all the major conflicts abroad. They cannot seem to coexist with others. This will need to change for this 7th century religion to remain viable in the new world...mark my words on that....

And how exactly do you propose we do that? If history has taught us anything, it's that trying to force religious change on a huge population of religious people results in some of the worst conflicts. I agree that there seems to be some issue in the Muslim community at the moment, but whining about it isn't a solution. Declaring war on Islam doesn't seem like a good idea either, they "only" make up 1/4 of the people on the planet...do you really want to be at war with all of those people?

So what IS the solution? Frankly I think the only workable solution is to deal with the problem individuals and groups within the Muslim community AS individuals. Deal with the bin Laden's and the like when they pose a threat, and go out of our way to make it clear that we WANT the rest of the Muslims on our side. The overall change will have to come from them.

That point is the key that most people seem to be missing. You people all act like Islam and all Muslims are the enemy. And whether you are right or wrong, we can't possibly "win" this with that attitude. So the religious nutjobs and armchair tough guys on our side need to cram a sock in it, satisfying your ego and fanatical beliefs is less important than moving society forward.

First off you dont DEAL with radicalism....As long as it makes it quite clear its attention to attack the western world you eradicate it like the disease it is.


I am not suggesting you force any religion on anyone. You go to the imans and the clerics and take out the radicalized ones. I am sure there are many non radicalized ones who can bring some sort of stability. I think fundamentally most ppl no matter the religion want to leave in peace and allow their children to grow up safely.

Look at the major conflicts today...name one that isn't being led by islamic radicalism?? Dont say not all are radical...1) i KNOW THAT...2) However it is far more then the few percent many would like you to believe....

The religion of the 7th century needs to start getting along (all we ask) and leave peacefully with hindus, jews, christians, and buddhist or they will eventually have to be eradicated as well....Seems like most of thos other religions get along with one another far better then the muslims do with others...Seems like a religion of no tolernace...

Stop trying to compare this to some sort of religious percution at the tiem of the founding of the US...not even close to being the same.....

 

[AnyMal]

Originally posted by: Duvie
QFT....

liberalism for the most part is a secularlist movement led by groups of ppl who have no religious belief and want the breakdown of religion cause it makes it easier to pass its agendas....Look at countires like sweden, denmark, and the netherlands. It is rumored only 3-5% ppl go to church there. It is also the countries that are the most socialist and have allowed some of the more morally questionable activities to be legalized in their societies. all of those things could not have happend until church membership had reached those levels. A godless country will bring moral decay and thus homosexuality, drug legalization, assisted suicide, abortion (partial and late term) will begin to flourish.

DECADENCE OF SOCIETY...I think you will see thorughout history the greatest socieites eventually fell to this same type of thing....



For me it is quite clear the Muslim religion needs a mjor overhaul...They make up no more then 1/4 of the ppl on this planet yet they make up 90+% of all the major conflicts abroad. They cannot seem to coexist with others. This will need to change for this 7th century religion to remain viable in the new world...mark my words on that....

You're so casually mention 1/4 of population as insignificant that it makes me wonder if you're aware that we're talking about billion + people? I'm not sure what it is that made it "clear" to you, but the mere fact that you're willing to lump all Muslims together tells me that you know nothing about the subject at hand.

 

[BarneyFife]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Another lame attempt to blame Librals for everything. Good job!

I consider myself liberal and I'm sure the majority of posters on this board know that about me. I'm not trying to blame liberals. I'm just trying to point out the double standard.

 

[Duvie]

By the wat to the above England is already heading there themselves...Even the US has fallen to 20% church attendance.....Right now bans on gay mariiage and legalized drugs still fail...Abortion is toss up a lot of the time..What using the countries I listed does is shows us the correlation to the more liberal societies and how much religious spirtuality takes part in it.....

It is not aggorance by my part just my opinion on how I see...Sorry it offends certain ppl...feel free to debate me or prove me wrong....

 

[Duvie]

Originally posted by: AnyMal

Originally posted by: Duvie
QFT....

liberalism for the most part is a secularlist movement led by groups of ppl who have no religious belief and want the breakdown of religion cause it makes it easier to pass its agendas....Look at countires like sweden, denmark, and the netherlands. It is rumored only 3-5% ppl go to church there. It is also the countries that are the most socialist and have allowed some of the more morally questionable activities to be legalized in their societies. all of those things could not have happend until church membership had reached those levels. A godless country will bring moral decay and thus homosexuality, drug legalization, assisted suicide, abortion (partial and late term) will begin to flourish.

DECADENCE OF SOCIETY...I think you will see thorughout history the greatest socieites eventually fell to this same type of thing....



For me it is quite clear the Muslim religion needs a mjor overhaul...They make up no more then 1/4 of the ppl on this planet yet they make up 90+% of all the major conflicts abroad. They cannot seem to coexist with others. This will need to change for this 7th century religion to remain viable in the new world...mark my words on that....

You're so casually mention 1/4 of population as insignificant that it makes me wonder if you're aware that we're talking about billion + people? I'm not sure what it is that made it "clear" to you, but the mere fact that you're willing to lump all Muslims together tells me that you know nothing about the subject at hand.

I know the earth population...I am just stating they are just one piece of the pie and not even the largest religion in terms of ppl....They have to learn to coexist....

ultimately why it is not all the muslims fault they have the ability, they put the radicalised clerics into the power they have now.....The muslim ppl can do this themselves peacefully or mark my words the rest of the world will do it not so peacefully....

I am telling you how I see it....

By the way I know the subject so go ahead and debate me....

 

[mOeeOm]

Originally posted by: Duvie

Originally posted by: AnyMal

Originally posted by: Duvie
QFT....

liberalism for the most part is a secularlist movement led by groups of ppl who have no religious belief and want the breakdown of religion cause it makes it easier to pass its agendas....Look at countires like sweden, denmark, and the netherlands. It is rumored only 3-5% ppl go to church there. It is also the countries that are the most socialist and have allowed some of the more morally questionable activities to be legalized in their societies. all of those things could not have happend until church membership had reached those levels. A godless country will bring moral decay and thus homosexuality, drug legalization, assisted suicide, abortion (partial and late term) will begin to flourish.

DECADENCE OF SOCIETY...I think you will see thorughout history the greatest socieites eventually fell to this same type of thing....



For me it is quite clear the Muslim religion needs a mjor overhaul...They make up no more then 1/4 of the ppl on this planet yet they make up 90+% of all the major conflicts abroad. They cannot seem to coexist with others. This will need to change for this 7th century religion to remain viable in the new world...mark my words on that....

You're so casually mention 1/4 of population as insignificant that it makes me wonder if you're aware that we're talking about billion + people? I'm not sure what it is that made it "clear" to you, but the mere fact that you're willing to lump all Muslims together tells me that you know nothing about the subject at hand.

I know the earth population...I am just stating they are just one piece of the pie and not even the largest religion in terms of ppl....They have to learn to coexist....

ultimately why it is not all the muslims fault they have the ability, they put the radicalised clerics into the power they have now.....The muslim ppl can do this themselves peacefully or mark my words the rest of the world will do it not so peacefully....

I am telling you how I see it....

By the way I know the subject so go ahead and debate me....

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
I don't think you really understand the liberal point of view here. It's not that we should excuse the fundies, it's that we are able to distinguish between fundies and everyone else. I am smart enough to realize that bin Laden doesn't represent all Muslims any more than priests molesting little boys represents all Christians. Muslims get a "free pass" because "Muslims" haven't done anything. The attitude of those who want to crack down on the Muslims in general is exactly where France's problems are coming from.

There are a lot of Muslims in the US, but why don't we have the same problems France and Europe in general do? It's not because they are too nice and liberal and pacifist. Actually, it's exactly the opposite. Everything I've heard suggests that Muslims are second class citizens in Europe. Ironic as it is, we don't have the same problem in America because we are more liberal than Europe when it comes to accepting differences. This doesn't excuse what's happening in France, but it suggests that "rolling out the tanks" is not going to solve the problem in the long run. They could certainly put down this riot with overwhelming force...but that would just cause a larger rift and the next time would probably be worse.

At the same time muslims are given a free pass as they have done little to police their own radicals. Then if any attempt is done to investigave the muslim population to find the radicals, it is labeled as racial profiling(which many on the left sees as completely wrong).

The problem with muslem radicals must be taken seriously

 

[Strk]

Look at the major conflicts today...name one that isn't being led by islamic radicalism?? Dont say not all are radical...1) i KNOW THAT...2) However it is far more then the few percent many would like you to believe....

Sri Lanka with the Tamils
Columbia
El Salvador
Nepal
Chechnya (There are Islamic fundamentalists there, but that's not what the conflict is about)
LRA in Uganda
The entire region around the DC Congo

Would you like me to go on? And if you go back a 1-3 decades, it gets much worse in South America.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Rainsford
I don't think you really understand the liberal point of view here. It's not that we should excuse the fundies, it's that we are able to distinguish between fundies and everyone else. I am smart enough to realize that bin Laden doesn't represent all Muslims any more than priests molesting little boys represents all Christians. Muslims get a "free pass" because "Muslims" haven't done anything. The attitude of those who want to crack down on the Muslims in general is exactly where France's problems are coming from.

There are a lot of Muslims in the US, but why don't we have the same problems France and Europe in general do? It's not because they are too nice and liberal and pacifist. Actually, it's exactly the opposite. Everything I've heard suggests that Muslims are second class citizens in Europe. Ironic as it is, we don't have the same problem in America because we are more liberal than Europe when it comes to accepting differences. This doesn't excuse what's happening in France, but it suggests that "rolling out the tanks" is not going to solve the problem in the long run. They could certainly put down this riot with overwhelming force...but that would just cause a larger rift and the next time would probably be worse.

At the same time muslims are given a free pass as they have done little to police their own radicals. Then if any attempt is done to investigave the muslim population to find the radicals, it is labeled as racial profiling(which many on the left sees as completely wrong).

The problem with muslem radicals must be taken seriously

I agree. The problem with Muslim RADICALS. And the best way to do that is not by treating the non-radical Muslims like criminals. They are exactly the people we want on our side.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Duvie
By the wat to the above England is already heading there themselves...Even the US has fallen to 20% church attendance.....Right now bans on gay mariiage and legalized drugs still fail...Abortion is toss up a lot of the time..What using the countries I listed does is shows us the correlation to the more liberal societies and how much religious spirtuality takes part in it.....

It is not aggorance by my part just my opinion on how I see...Sorry it offends certain ppl...feel free to debate me or prove me wrong....

You still infer that those things are morally wrong and that if the percentage of churchgoing citizens were higher they would use the government as a mechanism to forbid/regulate them.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Duvie
By the wat to the above England is already heading there themselves...Even the US has fallen to 20% church attendance.....Right now bans on gay mariiage and legalized drugs still fail...Abortion is toss up a lot of the time..What using the countries I listed does is shows us the correlation to the more liberal societies and how much religious spirtuality takes part in it.....

It is not aggorance by my part just my opinion on how I see...Sorry it offends certain ppl...feel free to debate me or prove me wrong....

I hear church attendance was pretty high during the dark ages...

I know it's a stupid argument against religion, just pointing out that church attendance isn't a good measurment of the positive attributes of a society

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Rainsford
I don't think you really understand the liberal point of view here. It's not that we should excuse the fundies, it's that we are able to distinguish between fundies and everyone else. I am smart enough to realize that bin Laden doesn't represent all Muslims any more than priests molesting little boys represents all Christians. Muslims get a "free pass" because "Muslims" haven't done anything. The attitude of those who want to crack down on the Muslims in general is exactly where France's problems are coming from.

There are a lot of Muslims in the US, but why don't we have the same problems France and Europe in general do? It's not because they are too nice and liberal and pacifist. Actually, it's exactly the opposite. Everything I've heard suggests that Muslims are second class citizens in Europe. Ironic as it is, we don't have the same problem in America because we are more liberal than Europe when it comes to accepting differences. This doesn't excuse what's happening in France, but it suggests that "rolling out the tanks" is not going to solve the problem in the long run. They could certainly put down this riot with overwhelming force...but that would just cause a larger rift and the next time would probably be worse.

At the same time muslims are given a free pass as they have done little to police their own radicals. Then if any attempt is done to investigave the muslim population to find the radicals, it is labeled as racial profiling(which many on the left sees as completely wrong).

The problem with muslem radicals must be taken seriously

I agree. The problem with Muslim RADICALS. And the best way to do that is not by treating the non-radical Muslims like criminals. They are exactly the people we want on our side.

Yes, but like i said any attempt to investigate the general populaiton to find the radicals is often shouted down by many on the left.