Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Rainsford
I don't think you really understand the liberal point of view here. It's not that we should excuse the fundies, it's that we are able to distinguish between fundies and everyone else. I am smart enough to realize that bin Laden doesn't represent all Muslims any more than priests molesting little boys represents all Christians. Muslims get a "free pass" because "Muslims" haven't done anything. The attitude of those who want to crack down on the Muslims in general is exactly where France's problems are coming from.
There are a lot of Muslims in the US, but why don't we have the same problems France and Europe in general do? It's not because they are too nice and liberal and pacifist. Actually, it's exactly the opposite. Everything I've heard suggests that Muslims are second class citizens in Europe. Ironic as it is, we don't have the same problem in America because we are more liberal than Europe when it comes to accepting differences. This doesn't excuse what's happening in France, but it suggests that "rolling out the tanks" is not going to solve the problem in the long run. They could certainly put down this riot with overwhelming force...but that would just cause a larger rift and the next time would probably be worse.
At the same time muslims are given a free pass as they have done little to police their own radicals. Then if any attempt is done to investigave the muslim population to find the radicals, it is labeled as racial profiling(which many on the left sees as completely wrong).
The problem with muslem radicals must be taken seriously
I agree. The problem with Muslim RADICALS. And the best way to do that is not by treating the non-radical Muslims like criminals. They are exactly the people we want on our side.
Yes, but like i said any attempt to investigate the general populaiton to find the radicals is often shouted down by many on the left.
No, it's not. What's "shouted down" by many (left and otherwise) is the sort of measures that apply to all Muslims...the sort that gives us more enemies instead of fewer. I have no problem with domestic and foreign intelligence and police agencies trying to identify the individuals and groups instigating violence. What I do have a problem with is things like making "Flying while Arab" a crime and harassing everyone who goes to the local mosque. There is a big difference.
And here in lies the problem. When it comes to hijacking an airplane good policework is just going to say we have much more to fear from muslim men from the ages of 18-35 than grandmothers and children. To deny this means you are giving muslims a pass and it also means muslims are demanding a pass as they are not policing their own. Tos soay people that fit this profile dont deman a little attention as they pass though security is just foolish.
Nor is it a crime or bad policework to send intel people to invesitgate muslim churches to find out if anything bad is going on there. But you seem to think this is bad as well.
It seems you only want to police to clean up after something tragic has happened.
You couldn't be more wrong. Good policework is going to say that (at least lately) airplane hijackers in the US are much more likely to be Muslim men. For the sake of argument, we'll ignore the fact that we have a very small sample size unless we go back farther or consider other countries, which would invalidate what I just said. In any case, the fact that hijackers are more likely to be Muslim men doesn't mean that Muslim men are more likely to be hijackers. Well, it does, but only by an almost immesurable amount. So few people, Muslim men or otherwise, are hijackers that having an airline security policy based around targetting Muslim men is stupid. The downsides of a system like this almost certianly outweight the potential benefits.
Right now the main accomplishment of airline security is annoying the crap out of anyone who flies. There seems to be some question of whether or not the extra security would even prevent another 9/11. I've heard convincing arguments that the ONLY two changes to airline security that would have prevented 9/11 are the reinforced flight deck doors and the fact that passengers now understand the potential threat. But still, even a little bit of security from extra screening is worth the hassle, right? Maybe, but if you start making it MORE of a hassle for Arabs or Muslims to fly, it will generate bad feelings for each Muslim or Arab male that is treated like a criminal. The vast, VAST majority of these people will be innocent, yet by treating them differently because of their race and religion, we are alienating the very people we need on our side. And this will be many people every day, we will drive a larger wedge between Muslims and the rest of us many many times for each potential terrorist we might stop.
The other downside of this sort of thing is that it promotes stupid security. Anyone who looks at 9/11 and concludes the primary thing we need to do is focus on Muslims or Arabs is an idiot. Not because the hijackers weren't Arab Muslims, but because that's a pretty useless criteria for catching terrorists. It's not specific enough, and there are almost certainly better ways to pick a terrorist out of a crowd. Airport security is the last hurdle for a potential hijacker before he's home free. I would be willing to bet that they act different, or nervous, or try to act TOO confident, or something that makes them stand out if you know what to look for. But our airport security people will be too busy giving Omar the engineering student a hard time, or trying to decide if #3 in line looks Arab or not, to look for people who are acting "funny".
As for investigating mosques...it depends on why we are there. Are we just shaking the trees and seeing what falls out? Or are we following good police and intelligence procedures as part of a logical investigation? Again, the problem is the same. So few Muslims are terrorists that we waste time and resources, not to mention goodwill from the Muslim community, with any measure that broadly targets all Muslims. We are MUCH better off being smart about it and actually targetting people we think might be terrorists or have links to terrorists.
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