The Theism/Atheism Mega-thread Hullabaloo Extravaganza

[Retro Rob]

G-d: "Kill every member of this tribe down to the last baby!"
Man: "But you told us "Thou shalt not kill""
G-d: "It's okay, I'm telling you to and won't hold you accountable."
Man: "Sorry, it's wrong to kill so you'd better punish me now for disobeying you"
G-d: < crickets >
Man: "Well that about wraps it up for G-d"

It's funny you post this, because this betrays a deep, profound ignorance. "Killing" was never condemned -- MURDER was.

Israel could kill in self-defense, or when they were at war (when not killing was not an option).

Murder, the unlawful and malicious taking of life, was condemned. This brings up another point; laws you give to others aren't bound to you.

For example, if you give your kids a 9pm bedtime, does that mean you and your wife MUST be in bed at 9? No, as you have the right to make laws for those you have authority over while not being bound to them yourself.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

You're arguing from a lack of knowledge, God acts from the point of knowledge.

You're not God, genius. You're arguing from a lack of knowledge, too.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

I think you guys are focusing on the wrong things. Rob has stipulated that the God be believes in knows the future for the people of earth. The inescapable consequence of this foreknowledge is the total absence of moral agency in the universe. There is no such thing as right and wrong, and Rob is contradicting himself when he speaks as though there is.

 

[Retro Rob]

I think you guys are focusing on the wrong things. Rob has stipulated that the God be believes in knows the future for the people of earth. The inescapable consequence of this foreknowledge is the total absence of moral agency in the universe. There is no such thing as right and wrong, and Rob is contradicting himself when he speaks as though there is.

Then God cannot be "wrong" for killing the Amalakites and their children.

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[jackstar7]

Then God cannot be "wrong" for killing the Amalakites and their children.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Again, that applies to god, not to the people who carried out the murdering.

 

[jackstar7]

Fair enough.




I'm not insulted by anything, I'm just amazed at how you ask "how could god do such a thing", and then when someone says "this passage says exactly why", you say "NO! -- he's a [insert name here]".

That makes it pointless. Don't ask rhetorical questions like that, or simply be honest and say that the answer given is unacceptable (which is really what it is).

It's ironic that you all prefer to call him a murderer, and it's not coincidental that you prefer that -- it's simply acceptable.



Child murder has nothing to do with the truthfulness of the stories. Conversely, in fact, the candid nature of the Bible actually lends to its truthfulness.

You're better off picking on the miracles.

And please, argumentum ad Hitlerum (which you're sure to make) is a logically fallacy.

See? That right there at the end? That's you falling back on insult. Why am I sure to Godwin? Or was that directed more broadly. Either way, it's indirect evidence that you think little of those asking questions.

ALSO, I don't care about god's murders. I already granted that he is above reproach due to his nature. That doesn't condone the murders committed by the people acting on his behalf. They are still responsible for their actions, which include killing infants.

At that point it comes down to "what does god need with a starship?" and that's why many of us are so skeptical of this god you claim is ineffable. Why did he need a bunch of people to murder children? He clearly had the ability to do that himself.

Surely, it would have make the battle all the easier had Saul marched his forces in and the Amakelites are all devastated by all their dead children. Then he isn't making the people handle that bit of horrendous business. But he didn't take that route... and it's hideous.

 

[Retro Rob]

Edit.

 

[Retro Rob]

See? That right there at the end? That's you falling back on insult. Why am I sure to Godwin? Or was that directed more broadly. Either way, it's indirect evidence that you think little of those asking questions.

That wasn't anything near an insult.

That doesn't condone the murders committed by the people acting on his behalf. They are still responsible for their actions, which include killing infants.

Well, if God told them to conduct the destruction, then they're not responsible to anyone for anything.

You're missing a vital point here; if God is indeed real (which may or may not be true) and he told them to do it, then it doesn't matter if humans think they're accountable for that if God basically has absolved them of accountability by ordering them to do it.

In short, your opinion doesn't matter.

At that point it comes down to "what does god need with a starship?" and that's why many of us are so skeptical of this god you claim is ineffable. Why did he need a bunch of people to murder children? He clearly had the ability to do that himself.

Who said God "needed" them? The reason why you're confused is because you're making strawman arguments -- no one has ever said God needed anything...he simply used humans.

Why? Because that's just how he did it. In other words, I don't know for sure.

 

[alzan]

It's funny you post this, because this betrays a deep, profound ignorance. "Killing" was never condemned -- MURDER was.

Israel could kill in self-defense, or when they were at war (when not killing was not an option).

Murder, the unlawful and malicious taking of life, was condemned. This brings up another point; laws you give to others aren't bound to you.

For example, if you give your kids a 9pm bedtime, does that mean you and your wife MUST be in bed at 9? No, as you have the right to make laws for those you have authority over while not being bound to them yourself.

Yes it does display a deep and profound ignorance. Thanks for admitting that you have this problem for it brings you closer to resolving it.

You can put whatever name on it or situational ethic you desire, the end result is a dead human being or beings.

Stop going off on the parent/child analogy; we're talking about a deity who willfully murders and kills, either of his own doing or through his fearful and gullible "creations".

 

[Retro Rob]

Stop going off on the parent/child analogy; we're talking about a deity who willfully murders and kills, either of his own doing or through his fearful and gullible "creations".

You don't seem to understand why laws don't have to apply to the Law-giver -- I didn't know an easier way to explain that to you.

I know an analogy like that insults your intelligence.

 

[SlowSpyder]

I have a hard time with the story or seeing the love as portrayed in churches and by christians, I guess I just don't get it. God had no problem convincing people he was real and all powerful quite peacefully when he wanted, but he had to resort to using humans and cause war and genocide in other cases. He flooded the planet to kill almost all life and start over, so we're all descended from Noah's family. Yet people around the world seem to forget about that major supernatural event that changed the course of everything as time goes on and most don't recognize him as god. The flood and earth-reset didn't do the trick so he sends his son to be executed to make things better. Now he watches me touch myself. :sneaky:

 

[alzan]

You don't seem to understand why laws don't have to apply to the Law-giver -- I didn't know an easier way to explain that to you.

I know an analogy like that insults your intelligence.

You assumed it insulted my intelligence.

Analogies only work in a broad sense; the parent/child analogy fails only because G-d is not my or anyone else's parent.

 

[Retro Rob]

Analogies only work in a broad sense; the parent/child analogy fails only because G-d is not my or anyone else's parent.

Saying God is our Father is more of a metaphor, so the analogy works perfectly.

 

[jackstar7]

That wasn't anything near an insult.

Just to quickly address this: does the audience decide what's insulting? Or the speaker?

You might not intend it as such, but it is insulting. I let you know. You clearly don't care, based on your response. Great, now I can also choose to care less.

Well, if God told them to conduct the destruction, then they're not responsible to anyone for anything.

You're missing a vital point here; if God is indeed real (which may or may not be true) and he told them to do it, then it doesn't matter if humans think they're accountable for that if God basically has absolved them of accountability by ordering them to do it.

In short, your opinion doesn't matter.

Who said God "needed" them? The reason why you're confused is because you're making strawman arguments -- no one has ever said God needed anything...he simply used humans.

Why? Because that's just how he did it. In other words, I don't know for sure.

So, those ordered by god to do something are no longer in possession of their free will? They have no means to evaluate their willingness to comply? They are devoid of their own ability to judge their actions? That's monstrous.


As for the need, it's god's plan that everyone is following. Because he knows how it is all going to go, he needs things to happen as they must... as he has already seen. It's the paradox of omniscience and supposed free will.

 

[soulcougher73]

I think you guys are focusing on the wrong things. Rob has stipulated that the God be believes in knows the future for the people of earth. The inescapable consequence of this foreknowledge is the total absence of moral agency in the universe. There is no such thing as right and wrong, and Rob is contradicting himself when he speaks as though there is.

Then God cannot be "wrong" for killing the Amalakites and their children.

Thanks for clearing that up.

I love my free will thank you very much.

 

[soulcougher73]

I have a hard time with the story or seeing the love as portrayed in churches and by christians, I guess I just don't get it. God had no problem convincing people he was real and all powerful quite peacefully when he wanted, but he had to resort to using humans and cause war and genocide in other cases. He flooded the planet to kill almost all life and start over, so we're all descended from Noah's family. Yet people around the world seem to forget about that major supernatural event that changed the course of everything as time goes on and most don't recognize him as god. The flood and earth-reset didn't do the trick so he sends his son to be executed to make things better. Now he watches me touch myself. :sneaky:

Dont forget god has foreknowledge of everything. So he knew he fucked up before he fucked up

 

[Retro Rob]

So, those ordered by god to do something are no longer in possession of their free will?

How exactly do arrive at this conclusion?

They have no means to evaluate their willingness to comply? They are devoid of their own ability to judge their actions? That's monstrous.

Another strawman.

As for the need, it's god's plan that everyone is following. Because he knows how it is all going to go, he needs things to happen as they must... as he has already seen. It's the paradox of omniscience and supposed free will.

I don't beleive God has a plan, nor do I believe the Bible supports a specific plan for people as indivuduals.

I think that we are free to serve God or not, becasue if God does have a plan, then he cannot justly punish people for doing something he foreknew they'd do.

 

[soulcougher73]

I don't beleive God has a plan, nor do I believe the Bible supports a specific plan for people.

If he has no plan then why would he care what we did with our free will? Why would he order the death of people? Sounds like he must have some kind of plan.

 

[alzan]

Saying God is our Father is more of a metaphor, so the analogy works perfectly.

For you, obviously. To others, not necessarily.

My father was certainly wise, caring and compassionate but he never told me to murder anyone or anything.

 

[Retro Rob]

For you, obviously. To others, not necessarily.

My father was certainly wise, caring and compassionate but he never told me to murder anyone or anything.

Good for him!

 

[Retro Rob]

If he has no plan then why would he care what we did with our free will?

He has a purpose, that's why...his purpose is that folks live forever, according to the Bible anyway.

It differs from a plan in that plans can change, and routes, interrupted.

Purposes are more broad because the route to the end result can change, but the end result stays the same.

Why would he order the death of people? Sounds like he must have some kind of plan.

Because he requires that people act a certain way, and death protects others.

Imagine if he never ordered the death or enemies, then Israel would be under constant attack and ambush. Sometimes, he does it to protect other people, sometimes he simply deems people worthy of it -- there can be a number of reasons that I simply have no knowledge of.

 

[soulcougher73]

Imagine if he never ordered the death or enemies, then Israel would be under constant attack and ambush. Sometimes, he does it to protect other people, sometimes he simply deems people worthy of it -- there can be a number of reasons that I simply have no knowledge of.

They are still under attack and ambush. So i guess his plan/purpose failed. He doesnt seem to bright with the whole foreknowledge thing.

 

[Retro Rob]

He doesnt seem to bright with the whole foreknowledge thing.

I knew better than to think you could have a serious discussion about Israel in reference to the Bible, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt momentarily.

Totally my mistake.

Carry on trying to get attention.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Then God cannot be "wrong" for killing the Amalakites and their children.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Only to you, because you're the one that believes the silly nonsense about a being that has inerrant foreknowledge. You also don't believe that Hitler was wrong for killing millions of Jews, nor were the Spanish Inquisitors wrong for torturing and killing thousands.

Those of us that do not believe in silly things like magical creators with prefect knowledge of the future can hold those persons accountable for their own actions.

Now it's cleared up.

 

[Retro Rob]

Only to you, because you're the one that believes the silly nonsense about a being the has inerrant foreknowledge. You also don't believe that Hitler was wrong for killing millions of Jews, nor were the Spanish Inquisitors wrong for torturing and killing thousands.

Those of us that do not believe in silly things like magical creators with prefect knowledge of the future can hold those persons accountable for their own actions.

Now it's cleared up.

reductio ad hitlerum