The supplement thread

[The Sauce]

ummm steroids have many benefits... what about cancer and aids patients who have trouble keeping muscle mass? if you waste away to 100 lbs during chemotherapy how can u expect to fight off illness? it is because steroids do their job so well that they have gotten a bad rap in athletics. But they are potential life savers for people who need them.

Just a quick question. How many cancer and AIDS patients do you know of or treat personally who take or are prescribed anabolic steroids for muscle wasting?

 

[The Sauce]

The classes just kinda seem off to me. Some of the class C compounds (DHEA, HGH, caffeine) have proven benefits, but also have proven risks. I don't know if "questionable effectiveness and possible harm" quite classifies them correctly. They are highly effective, but frequently harmful (again mainly due to lack of education, but can be due to their action in the body). They ARE effective. They just have some major downsides.

I can agree with your argument for caffeine and HGH, but not DHEA. Within the last 6 months I pulled all of the relevant literature on DHEA and did not see any benefit with regard to fitness or strength training. Other postulated effects, such as improvement in memory and cognition were dicey as well. Categories restructured to reflect your good points. I just wanted to keep it simple.

 

[CPA]

Holy freakin crap. How many times will we have to say this in the same thread?!? EphedrA, not ephedrINE!

Everytime it's asked, of course.

Now answer my question

Edit: BTW, I only saw you mention the distinction in one post other than the OP, which was just misread by me.

 

[bommy261]

Just a quick question. How many cancer and AIDS patients do you know of or treat personally who take or are prescribed anabolic steroids for muscle wasting? Because I have been seeing them every day for the last 12 years and can't think of a single one.

do you of a better way to prevent muscle wasting?

 

[Eric62]

Yes, but what constitutes abuse? I would argue that any use purely for fitness or strength enhancement constitutes abuse. These were made illegal for a reason.

Gear was made illegal by politicians trying to get (re-) elected by using the Ben Johnson scandal as proof that they were doing something about cheating in sports.

The AMA, DEA, among others, were against the Anabolic Steroid Control Act Of 1990, and said so before congress!!!

See "Bigger, Stronger, Faster" for further info...

You claim to be a physician and a bodybuilder - where do you practice medicine, and what titles have you won? With links please.

BTW: Sauce is like juice and gear - all euphemisms for steroids - LOL.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

I can agree with your argument for caffeine and HGH, but not DHEA. Within the last 6 months I pulled all of the relevant literature on DHEA and did not see any benefit with regard to fitness or strength training. Other postulated effects, such as improvement in memory and cognition were dicey as well. Categories restructured to reflect your good points. I just wanted to keep it simple.

Fair enough, I just clumped DHEA in there. I haven't read much research on it so I appreciate you knowing when to tell me I'm definitely wrong. Yeah, keeping it simple would be nice, but sadly, supplementing with any of these isn't really a simple process. In all honesty, I'm against most supplements (except those considered class A) since they can definitely have side effects. My realm of thought is that, if your diet is in check, most supplements aren't going to do much for you (unless you're specifically pathological). Essentially, I feel that fruits, veggies, fiber, and good sources of fat are the best tool of all.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Gear was made illegal by politicians trying to get (re-) elected by using the Ben Johnson scandal as proof that they were doing something about cheating in sports.

The AMA, DEA, among others, were against the Anabolic Steroid Control Act Of 1990, and said so before congress!!!

See "Bigger, Stronger, Faster" for further info...

You claim to be a physician and a bodybuilder - where do you practice medicine, and what titles have you won? With links please.

BTW: Sauce is like juice and gear - all euphemisms for steroids - LOL.

This is an interesting point about steroids. There has been a lot of political action and societal stigma that surrounds steroid use.

Also, I don't know if it's really relevant if the OP has actually won any titles. The physician part is a good question, but the importance of the info doesn't change if The Sauce hasn't won any competitions.

 

[The Sauce]

I do not compete. I lift recreationally. Not enough time to be a professional bodybuilder.

I list this information here as a courtesy since most recreational lifters have neither the time nor the knowledge to critically review the scientific literature regarding supplements. Hence they tend to rate supplements based on advertisements and magazine reviews, which are horrendously biased. As it turns out there is little solid evidence for most supplements out there. All the companies list research but it is badly flawed at best and, at worst, completely contrived and funded by the product manufacturer.

I set out about a year ago to review any available research on the supplements I considered using. My findings are as listed in the OP. Saying that there is no scintific evidence for something is not the same as saying it does not work. Just that there is no proof that it works.

 

[The Sauce]

do you of a better way to prevent muscle wasting?

Glutamine and creatine monohydrate have both been shown to prevent muscle wasting in clinical studies. Glutamine is commonly used in the ICU in intubated trauma patients for that reason. In ambulatory patients the only proven ways to prevent muscle wasting is through proper nutrition and physical conditioning. Anabolic steroids are not used for that reason in my experience. That doesn't meant it wouldn't work. As far as I know it has never been studied.

PS - Do you always answer a question with a question?

 

[Eric62]

^^^SC; I question Sauces physician credentials for the many hinky claims he's made.
First is it's well known that anabolics are great for treating burn patients, severe anemia patients and HIV patients - anyone who claims to treat hundreds of AIDS patients without steroids is either a liar or a criminally negligent doctor. Just google steroids and AIDS and you'll see my point.
I used Anavar as a first example: http://www.google.com/search?q=anav...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Further my primary care physician on my first visit noticed I am a iron athlete (powerlifting, with verifiable credentials for those who doubt me) and asked if I used creatine. She told me what I had already deduced from trial and error - that creatine can cause PAC's (premature atrial contractions) - as I have had a history of SVT's (super ventricular tachycardia's) she was concerned I not needlessly risk another episode. I had long before given up on creatine - all I got was the side effects, without a single perceivable benefit.
NOTE: There isn't any conclusive proof that creatine (or ephedrine/epheda, asthma meds or AAS) causes heart arrythmias, but if your susceptible, creatine (and the others mentioned) can aggravate the problem.
Yet Dr. Sauce lists creatine as Class A - generally accepted as effective and little potential for harm.
I agree that most people can use creatine with no perceivable side effects other than cramping and diarrhea (many PAC's aren't noticed). But for a few people (me - before my 3 heart catheter ablation procedures) creatine can aggravate a life threatening arrhythmia - People with A-Fib or A-Flutter (I had both) have 7 times the risk of stroke, and need to be on coumadin to reduce that risk.
Even though I'm "cured"; creatine, stimulants, asthma meds, and androgen's (including Test) and intense cardio training (heart rate above 150) all increase the frequency of my PAC's.

Regarding his bodybuilding credentials, I agree with SC that it has little to do with his supplement knowledge (those who can't - teach. Nothing wrong with that!) - but has much to do with his ability to back up his claims with fact.

Let's face it, this is the internet and any poser can make outlandish claims. Without proof I figure the Sauce is just another internet warrior trying to blow smoke up my ass...

 

[alkemyst]

It was banned by the FDA for those reasons around 2003 I believe. It was, though, a very effective weight loss supp. Look it up.

Because fatties with a resting pulse of 80+ and a blood pressure of 140/90+ decided if 20mg, three times a day was good then 60mg three times a day must be better + druggies using it.

It's a safe product used smart. I stack it with ECCG, Caffeine, and a single aspirin.

 

[The Sauce]

Eric -

If you disagree with the list, make your case. Don't really care if you believe my credentials.

Your link fowards to a google list of online resellers of hormones, not reputable medical sites or scientific literature supporting your claim. You may be right, but as far as I know this is not common practice. I am not an expert on burn treatment.

Please link to any available double-blind, randomized, placebo-control trials in peer reviewed journals demonstrating that creatine contributes to cardiac ectopy. Anecdotes do not consitiute scientific evidence. I know it's tempting and it is a common mistake. I actually did the most thorough review of creatine because I was worried about the rumors regarding kidney failure. They turned out to be unfounded.

PS - love the avatar

 

[The Sauce]

deleted

 

[The Sauce]

New Rule:

If you have issue with the list, please post your concern and link to the evidence (please limit to real research studies in scientific journals) that you feel supports changing it. I will try to review the literature and if I agree I will change the list. I think I have had enough of the steroid argument. Not going to waste any more time responding to that line of question unless someone has some research to support their claims.

PS - certain references removed for liability reasons.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Further my primary care physician on my first visit noticed I am a iron athlete (powerlifting, with verifiable credentials for those who doubt me) and asked if I used creatine. She told me what I had already deduced from trial and error - that creatine can cause PAC's (premature atrial contractions) - as I have had a history of SVT's (super ventricular tachycardia's) she was concerned I not needlessly risk another episode. I had long before given up on creatine - all I got was the side effects, without a single perceivable benefit.
NOTE: There isn't any conclusive proof that creatine (or ephedrine/epheda, asthma meds or AAS) causes heart arrythmias, but if your susceptible, creatine (and the others mentioned) can aggravate the problem.
Yet Dr. Sauce lists creatine as Class A - generally accepted as effective and little potential for harm.
I agree that most people can use creatine with no perceivable side effects other than cramping and diarrhea (many PAC's aren't noticed). But for a few people (me - before my 3 heart catheter ablation procedures) creatine can aggravate a life threatening arrhythmia - People with A-Fib or A-Flutter (I had both) have 7 times the risk of stroke, and need to be on coumadin to reduce that risk.
Even though I'm "cured"; creatine, stimulants, asthma meds, and androgen's (including Test) and intense cardio training (heart rate above 150) all increase the frequency of my PAC's.

Interesting. I wasn't aware of creatine and its possibly dangerous side effects when mixed with arrhythmias. I will definitely keep that in mind next time before I suggest someone use it. The majority of users will have no problem, but messing with one's heart is not something to take lightly. Also, why did you have the ablation procedures? Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy? I'm surprised you can still powerlift with a heart like that. I'd figure it'd be one of the main stressors to induce more serious heart problems.

 

[Mark Janet]

I spent lot of time based on this but no effect on my body. Finally i decide to ask my dietitian and they suggest me few of things which is very useful to me.
Thanks,
Mark

 

[JDawg1536]

As far as I am aware, anabolic steroids are not medically indicated for any condition, even hormone deficiencies. Low testosterone is typically treated with testosterone, not steroids. Please do not confuse anabolic steroids with corticosteroids, which are used commonly medically and have very different (antiinflammatory) functions. Here is a summary article about the deleterious effects of anabolic steroids: http://www.sportsci.org/encyc/anabstereff/anabstereff.html

Wait, what? "Low testosterone is typically treated with testosterone, not steroids."

Anabolic steroids are just synthetic testosterone.

 

[crt1530]

The Sauce is full of shit. I'm not sure if he is delusional or a troll.

 

[Eric62]

Interesting. I wasn't aware of creatine and its possibly dangerous side effects when mixed with arrhythmias. I will definitely keep that in mind next time before I suggest someone use it. The majority of users will have no problem, but messing with one's heart is not something to take lightly. Also, why did you have the ablation procedures? Hypertrophic ? I'm surprised you can still powerlift with a heart like that. I'd figure it'd be one of the main stressors to induce more serious heart problems.

I had the ablation procedures because I had both Atrial Fibrillation and Atrial Flutter. They are extra electrical impulses (originating outside the sinus node) that causes the heart to contract out of rhythm (fibrillation) or extremely fast (flutter), drugs failed to keep my heart in it's normal sinus rhythm.

Like 50% of the cases - mine had no known cause. Fortunately my arteries are clean enough for the doctors to snake several catheters from my groin to my heart. Those with clogged arteries have to have open heart surgery to correct the problem.
Because my heart rate at times reached 272 (while being EKG'd), and ran at 135 + for months on end, I had cardiomyopathy.

After my "cure" I had several annual echocardiograms that showed my heart had no permanent damage and had returned to it's normal function - I was taken off of the coumadin and I resumed my Iron Warrior lifestyle 4 years ago. Actually I never stopped lifting, I just had to go home sick more often than not

No one's claiming creatine caused this problem. I've been unable to find double blind placebo controlled studies that show a link between creatine and premature atrial contracts - as requested by The Sauce. Funny how none of his recommendations are linked to the same standards...

 

[alkemyst]

Anecdotes do not consitiute scientific evidence. I know it's tempting and it is a common mistake.

Anecdotes it the new 'douchebag' on AT it seems.

Sad thing is here you can be the head researcher for a major medical breakthrough and some tool will say (and be correct) that your findings are anecdotal.

Then don't get me started when they start talking scientific method...

The original list the guy posted is sort of dead on for the masses.

Too many people think they can buy a bottle of whatever and other 'whatevers' and just take it all.

There is much more to it than just popping pills, timing, meals, sleep, etc all combine with dosing and all the other variables.

Most here have just started in their 'reading' and think because they understand the wiki and some textbook section, they are now experts in their field.

 

[alkemyst]

No one's claiming creatine caused this problem. I've been unable to find double blind placebo controlled studies that show a link between creatine and premature atrial contracts - as requested by The Sauce. Funny how none of his recommendations are linked to the same standards...

This is pretty much Creatine and it's side effects in a nutshell: http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/creatine-000297.htm

If there was such a study as presented I am sure it's just due to genetic or biological abnormality like how some people are allergic to water or the sun.

 

[The Sauce]

Wait, what? "Low testosterone is typically treated with testosterone, not steroids."

Anabolic steroids are just synthetic testosterone.

Absolutely right. I was referring to synthetic analogues but it was a silly distinction. Just confused people. I thought that Endocrinologists use testosterone as opposed to the synthetics such as oxandrolone or nandrolone. I know that there are testosterone patches that people with deficiencies wear. That is not my area of expertise.

 

[The Sauce]

Took steroids off of the list. It's causing too much rancor.

 

[The Sauce]

Funny how none of his recommendations are linked to the same standards...

Which one are you interested in? I'd be happy to list some. I personally researched creatine, glutamine, arginine, DHEA, CLA, chromium and fish oil. The rest are opinion based on general reading. Didn't bother with whey since it is pretty well generally accepted. In the link on steroids there is a list of references at the bottom. I also referenced a study on CLA, above.

 

[The Sauce]

The Sauce is full of shit. I'm not sure if he is delusional or a troll.

Thank you for the vote of confidence Is there anything constructive you could add to the discussion? You seem to be a fitness enthusiast and respected member of the forum. You must have some experience with supplements.