The Student Loan Problem

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Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,547
1,127
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DTI/PTI, students living at home because they cannot afford to leave alone, young adults too afraid of starting business because they already have too much debt, nobody willing to give them loans (PTI/DTI) to start small businesses...etc.

Sure, I 100% agree to that. Not sure where you're getting the idea that I am *against* solving this problem by getting rid of illegals, H1Bs, and offshoring. I am disgusted that it's gone down this way and want to help American jobs thrive again. I'm certainly no fan of it, nor this idea of shoveling tons of money at colleges for no gain.

Perhaps you need to dial it down a little there sparky.

You blame it solely on debt when the reality is, yes cost of college has outpaced inflation by substantial margins, but at the same time wages have serious lagged inflation for 3 decades now.

It used to be education was cheap and real wages were great.

Now its education is expensive and real wages are shit. Even when productivity and profits are at record highs.

You are only focusing on one part of the problem. Both problems need to be fixed to solve your so called "household formation".

One of the other problems in education is, the US eduction system has pushed the college for all message for the last three decades. Thankfully they are moving away from this mantra.
 
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LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
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You blame it solely on debt when the reality is, yes cost of college has outpaced inflation by substantial margins, but at the same time wages have serious lagged inflation for 3 decades now.

It used to be education was cheap and real wages were great.

Now its education is expensive and real wages are shit. Even when productivity and profits are at record highs.

You are only focusing on one part of the problem. Both problems need to be fixed to solve your so called "household formation".

One of the other problems in education is, the US eduction system has pushed the college for all message for the last three decades. Thankfully they are moving away from this mantra.

Yeah, I haven't mentioned those at all, a few posts above, specifically mentioning whats wrong, or why, or how.

Nope, just ignored it.
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
15,793
8,370
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Raising the cost of acquiring a degree that is totally out of step with inflation, is, coincidentally, a very convenient way to progressively deny it to a target demographic, thus widening the ever expanding gap between the have's and the have-not's.
 

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
8,175
9,161
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Raising the cost of acquiring a degree that is totally out of step with inflation, is, coincidentally, a very convenient way to progressively deny it to a target demographic, thus widening the ever expanding gap between the have's and the have-not's.
Why else go through the trouble of establishing an oligarchy if some rabble's kid can compete with your own?
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
15,793
8,370
136
Why else go through the trouble of establishing an oligarchy if some rabble's kid can compete with your own?

It's a little ploy the Business, Legal and Medical professions have been using for decades now. ;)
 
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OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
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Why else go through the trouble of establishing an oligarchy if some rabble's kid can compete with your own?


It's a little ploy the Business, Legal and Medical professions have been using for decades now. ;)

not-how-it-works-300x300.jpg
 

unokitty

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2012
3,346
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SMSM_MKT11064E_Pays2015_NewsroomImages_FNL_PieChart.jpg


How America Pays for College 2015: A national study

... survey of 1,600 undergraduate students ages 18-24 and parents of undergraduate students ages 18-24 found:

Six in 10 families did not borrow to pay for college...

Only two in five families said they had a plan to pay for college, but those who did spent more on college, covered more of the cost with income and savings, and students borrowed 40-percent less than families who didn’t plan.

Parent income and savings covered the largest share of college costs...

Families spent an average of ... 16-percent more than last year, and the most significant increase in five years.
College spending, by families, up 16%

60% of families did not borrow to pay for college.

40% of families reported that they had a plan to pay for college.

Just some Student Loan context...

Uno
 
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Virge_

Senior member
Aug 6, 2013
621
0
0
Is 30K on avg of student debt really a national problem? A lot of new cars fall into that range. Yet nobody is running around claiming cars are un-affordable and their owners are saddled with debt. 30K for a lifetime of much higher earnings seems like a pretty good value to me.

Interesting argument.

People spend 30k on student loans because the end-game is to use the education to get a high-paying job, which you then use to pay off the student loans and move on with your life.

People spend 30k on a car when they have the money to afford a 30k car, either through already being a professional/trades-person, or as a result of the education they received.

In one scenario you use money you have from the job you already have to buy a nice car (outright reality, if you are not well-employed and you are buying a 30k car, with very little exception, you are likely making a poor fiscal decision).

In the other scenario you're getting a large loan from the government with the sole purpose of making you employable, so it is a delayed benefit. Unfortunately, a good chunk of the current loans appear to be money-grab scams with government backed loans. The number of useless degrees which do not result in the expected employment of higher education are likely the bigger issue impacting individuals, and seem to be prominent in the discussion talking-points, yet for some reason is used more as supplementary.

While I personally think the responsibility for these types of situations is about 50/50 personal responsibility and lacking (or, perhaps just stagnating) government oversight - no matter how you choose to look at it, the reality is we are allowing many for-profit organizations such as banks and for-profit schools to abuse the loan process without being responsible for the useless degree and debt they saddle their uneducated (ironic) students with.

Honestly, if you figure out a way to tackle the abuse of nonsense degrees in higher education, the entire mess might just sort itself out - but in true American fashion we've allowed corporate greed to exploit it for so long it's gotten obscene too quickly. Reality is the players in this scenario know that it's a bubble so they're just trying to monetize as much as possible before it bursts - saying otherwise without good reasons and/or evidence to back up a claim suggests your character and/or motivations might be dubious at best, if not outright malicious.

Disclaimer: Yes, I am aware of and will not be tackling the more broad economic aspects of the student loan conundrum. Reality is there are corrective actions which can be applied, but our political system is simply too bought and paid for currently for them to actually be implemented until it's reactive instead of proactive. Sadly, our lumbering and wasteful government system cannot keep up with technology or the times so reactive is the best we can generally hope to accomplish.

Bring on Bernie!
 
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Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
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Raising the cost of acquiring a degree that is totally out of step with inflation, is, coincidentally, a very convenient way to progressively deny it to a target demographic, thus widening the ever expanding gap between the have's and the have-not's.

Not when just about any 18 year old kid can get a loan for virtually unlimited amounts to go to said school.

That is the entirety of the problem. When an 18 year old can get unlimited loans, irregardless of risk, to do something they have been told they must do are we really all that surprised the costs have gone up so massively?
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
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The federal government took over the student loan program under Obama and then increased the interest rate. This is just government greed.

Whenever the federal government takes over a program run by independent banks, it turns to shit.
 

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
8,175
9,161
136
The federal government took over the student loan program under Obama and then increased the interest rate. This is just government greed.

Whenever the federal government takes over a program run by independent banks, it turns to shit.

You're an idiot.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
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The federal government took over the student loan program under Obama and then increased the interest rate. This is just government greed.

Whenever the federal government takes over a program run by independent banks, it turns to shit.


Reeeeeeeeeeeeetaaaaaaaaaaaaaaardeeeeeeeeeeeeed
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
15,793
8,370
136
Not when just about any 18 year old kid can get a loan for virtually unlimited amounts to go to said school.

That is the entirety of the problem. When an 18 year old can get unlimited loans, irregardless of risk, to do something they have been told they must do are we really all that surprised the costs have gone up so massively?

That hasn't been my experience sending my kids through private schools and colleges. In my case both my kids wouldn't have been able to receive the quality of education they got if it hadn't been for the scholarships, grants and aid they busted their tails off for, so I didn't have to take out any loans, although I would have if needed.

But thanks for sharing a side of financing a college education that I didn't have any knowledge about.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
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More data coming out about the student loan problem.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ome-new-data-on-america-s-student-loan-burden

Turns out, 30% of Federal Direct Loan Borrowers are in IBR. Of the payments expected for borrowers, only 20% are received.

That means that 24% of all Federal borrowers do not have any, or have marginal, discretionary income (AGI - (1.5xpoverty line).

Of FFELP borrowers there are ~15% in forbearance, 15% in deferral, and another 10-15% in IBR, as well as 10-15% in delinquency.

However, we are constantly being told that the average debt is ~$30k and that is "manageable".

If it were manageable, then people would be paying, unless the goal is for them to not pay, regardless of ability.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
More data coming out about the student loan problem.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ome-new-data-on-america-s-student-loan-burden

Turns out, 30% of Federal Direct Loan Borrowers are in IBR. Of the payments expected for borrowers, only 20% are received.

That means that 24% of all Federal borrowers do not have any, or have marginal, discretionary income (AGI - (1.5xpoverty line).

Of FFELP borrowers there are ~15% in forbearance, 15% in deferral, and another 10-15% in IBR, as well as 10-15% in delinquency.

However, we are constantly being told that the average debt is ~$30k and that is "manageable".

If it were manageable, then people would be paying, unless the goal is for them to not pay, regardless of ability.


So it all should be written down and those companys that took on the risk will die.

Or is this a too big to fail scenario.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
So it all should be written down and those companys that took on the risk will die.

Or is this a too big to fail scenario.

You do realize who took the risk, right?

The government provided an explicit ~97% guaranty.

Do you really think that private companies are going to lend tens of thousands to 18yr olds without a shred of underwriting, risk based pricing, or co-signers? Even with bankruptcy non-dischargability? Post crisis?
 

stlc8tr

Golden Member
Jan 5, 2011
1,106
4
76
Why don't these people just go to code camp?

The NY Times says it's easy to land a six figure job after a few months of learning how to code!

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/29/technology/code-academy-as-career-game-changer.html

After Paul Minton graduated from college, he worked as a waiter, but always felt he should do more. So Mr. Minton, a 26-year-old math major, took a three-month course in computer programming and data analysis. As a waiter, he made $20,000 a year. His starting salary last year as a data scientist at a web start-up here was more than $100,000. “Six figures, right off the bat,” Mr. Minton said. “To me, it was astonishing.” Stories like his are increasingly familiar these days as people across a spectrum of jobs — poker players, bookkeepers, baristas — are shedding their past for a future in the booming tech industry. The money sloshing around in technology is cascading beyond investors and entrepreneurs into the broader digital work force, especially to those who can write modern code, the language of the digital world.