The 'Snow Police'

[Thump553]

What the OP whines about is an extremely common practice, almost universal. Would he prefer that the government hire many more workers and bump up his tax bill so that he won't be inconvenienced by having to shovel the walk on his property?

In many states you continue to own the property underneath the sidewalk, the government merely has an easement across it. The property owner, by ordinance, is responsible for shoveling and otherwise maintaining the sidewalk.

OP misplaced rage is really misdirected rage at a minor burden of being part of a modern society.

 

[Genx87]

Here in MN its 24 hours after the snow stops.

So in the event the snow stops at midnight, you have until 4am to get it done.

This is outrageous.

I found it even more outrageous the snow emergency called on Christmas day in many cities in the metro area. It snowed 2 days earlier.

 

[Linflas]

Yup, this is pretty standard, not sure where the rage is coming from. I must admit though, it always annoyed me that I was expected to keep my sidewalk clean so that other people can walk across my lawn, and the thanks I get in return was broken beer bottles and other assorted trash to clean.

Well it does not seem all that fair that local government can fine you if you fail to completely clear a sidewalk in 4 hours but they are under no similar time clock to clean the street in front of your clean sidewalk. Even worse when they do get around to cleaning the street they will probably throw the snow onto your previously cleaned sidewalk.

 

[Vette73]

why is this news? this is the case for practically every town/city.

if faced with a choice of higher property taxes all year versus having to shovel their own sidewalks for the 2-3 blizzards we get in an average winter, I'd imagine most people would vote for having to shovel.

Patranus, the OP, is just one of the P&N right wing trolls. Best to ignore him.

 

[BoberFett]

Well it does not seem all that fair that local government can fine you if you fail to completely clear a sidewalk in 4 hours but they are under no similar time clock to clean the street in front of your clean sidewalk. Even worse when they do get around to cleaning the street they will probably throw the snow onto your previously cleaned sidewalk.

Fair? Since when does government do anything fairly?

 

[Slick5150]

This thread is fail, even by Patranus' fail standards.

 

[guyver01]

now...who would the op be outraged at if he was walking down an un-shoveled sidewalk, slipped, fell, and broke his leg?

would he be complaining that "there should be a law requiring people to shovel their sidewalk"?

 

[drebo]

now...who would the op be outraged at if he was walking down an un-shoveled sidewalk, slipped, fell, and broke his leg?

would he be complaining that "there should be a law requiring people to shovel their sidewalk"?

Probably not. I know I wouldn't be.

I'd be pissed at myself for being a fucking moron, and then (possibly, if it had been a reasonable amount of time between when the snow ended and I slipped, say a couple of days) at the city for not taking care of their shit.

 

[Thump553]

Probably not. I know I wouldn't be.

I'd be pissed at myself for being a fucking moron, and then (possibly, if it had been a reasonable amount of time between when the snow ended and I slipped, say a couple of days) at the city for not taking care of their shit.

So it is your belief that the public should bear the burden of the cost of sidewalk shoveling-and it should be added to your tax bill (and probably at union wages for full time workers who spend a couple days each year shoveling)?

Total fail.

 

[drebo]

So it is your belief that the public should bear the burden of the cost of sidewalk shoveling-and it should be added to your tax bill (and probably at union wages for full time workers who spend a couple days each year shoveling)?

Total fail.

I pay property taxes for a reason. Add to that the gas taxes that I pay for road maintenance, and that should more than cover the cost of running a plow over the sidewalk.

In short, I already pay the taxes to the city to take care of roads. Sidewalks are part of that road. Every city everywhere already has public works employees that have dick else to do in the winter to take care of this kind of work.

But, that's not really what was being asked about. What was being called in to question was personal responsibility for falling on one's ass all by one's self. What you're talking about is who's job it is to pay for snow removal on a sidewalk. Two very different things.

My answer kind of blended the two together in saying that it should be the city's job to take care of snow removal, and it should be paid for by the existing gasoline/property tax revenue.

And, here's a hint: most gasoline taxes are put into the "general fund" and are not spent on road maintenance. Require cities to spend gasoline taxes on roads, and you'll find shit tons of money will magically appear for road maintenance. My city put it up to vote this past election and estimated that it would reduce the general fund by $5,000,000. That should be more than enough to cover a couple months of snow clearing. Oh, and it passed with flying colors.

 

[classy]

Am I missing something?

Most cities have had laws like this for decades. Is this something new for New York City?

Its been like that for as long as I can remember. I have no problem with it.

 

[sMiLeYz]

error: big government not found

 

[Capt Caveman]

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/12/27/property-owners-must-remove-snow-or-face-fines/

Nice to see the government fining people if they don't clean the PUBLIC sidewalk. I wonder what fines the government faces if they fail to clean the roadways within 4 hours.

Laws like this exist in pretty much every city and town.

 

[WHAMPOM]

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/12/27/property-owners-must-remove-snow-or-face-fines/

Nice to see the government fining people if they don't clean the PUBLIC sidewalk. I wonder what fines the government faces if they fail to clean the roadways within 4 hours.

Welcome to the real world outside of your parents attic/basement.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Pretty common city ordnance no matter where you go.

 

[CLite]

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/12/27/property-owners-must-remove-snow-or-face-fines/

Nice to see the government fining people if they don't clean the PUBLIC sidewalk. I wonder what fines the government faces if they fail to clean the roadways within 4 hours.

LOL, you are truly a moron.

 

[Mark R]

Heh. Over here the government have been advising businesses and homeowners not to touch snow on public sidewalks or anywhere except their own property.

If you clear snow of a public sidewalk, and someone slips on that sidewalk - then you potentially open yourself up to a lawsuit, because you didn't clear the whole sidewalk, and gave the false impression that the sidewalk was safe for use. If you only clear your own land, then you are only liable if someone injures themselves on your land - but if you start encroaching on public land, then you begin to accept liability for all the surrounding land too.

That's the argument. And business insurers, etc. have been advising business owners not to clear the snow, and to wait for the city to do it.

 

[Murloc]

Here the sidewalk is public and is cleaned by the city.
If you want to clean it yourself, fine.

 

[Mursilis]

why is this news? this is the case for practically every town/city.

if faced with a choice of higher property taxes all year versus having to shovel their own sidewalks for the 2-3 blizzards we get in an average winter, I'd imagine most people would vote for having to shovel.

This x2. Also, forcing people to shovel snow fights the obesity epidemic, so it's win/win! People pay less taxes, and get more exercise!

 

[Thump553]

I pay property taxes for a reason. Add to that the gas taxes that I pay for road maintenance, and that should more than cover the cost of running a plow over the sidewalk.

In short, I already pay the taxes to the city to take care of roads. Sidewalks are part of that road. Every city everywhere already has public works employees that have dick else to do in the winter to take care of this kind of work.

But, that's not really what was being asked about. What was being called in to question was personal responsibility for falling on one's ass all by one's self. What you're talking about is who's job it is to pay for snow removal on a sidewalk. Two very different things.

My answer kind of blended the two together in saying that it should be the city's job to take care of snow removal, and it should be paid for by the existing gasoline/property tax revenue.

And, here's a hint: most gasoline taxes are put into the "general fund" and are not spent on road maintenance. Require cities to spend gasoline taxes on roads, and you'll find shit tons of money will magically appear for road maintenance. My city put it up to vote this past election and estimated that it would reduce the general fund by $5,000,000. That should be more than enough to cover a couple months of snow clearing. Oh, and it passed with flying colors.

In summary, you do support a proposal to transfer the cost of sidewalk snow removal from the property owners to the general public, and have it paid by increased taxes. Do you think the present highway taxes are just thrown away and having the public pay for sidewalk snow removal really won't cost anything?

I'm glad most people, especially in my area, have a lot more common sense than you exhibit. Rendell was right-we are becoming a nation of wusses.

<-- Spoken as a property owner and taxpayer, and occupant of a business premises that does have public sidewalks (which I just came back in from touching up personally after drifting snow).

 

[bruceb]

We are required in NJ to clear the sidewalks within 48 hrs after storm stops.

 

[drebo]

In summary, you do support a proposal to transfer the cost of sidewalk snow removal from the property owners to the general public, and have it paid by increased taxes. Do you think the present highway taxes are just thrown away and having the public pay for sidewalk snow removal really won't cost anything?

I'm glad most people, especially in my area, have a lot more common sense than you exhibit. Rendell was right-we are becoming a nation of wusses.

<-- Spoken as a property owner and taxpayer, and occupant of a business premises that does have public sidewalks (which I just came back in from touching up personally after drifting snow).

Don't put words in my mouth, dumbass.

I never said anything about increasing taxes. I said to use existing taxes for what they were intended. And, I know for a fact that in California at least, gasoline taxes have not been spent on the roads for which they were intended. As stated, they were traditionally part of the general fund. In my city alone (300k people), that amounted to more than $5 million per year. More than enough to clear roads AND SIDEWALKS of snow for a couple months.

But, hey, whatever you need to do to justify your existence.

 

[tommo123]

can i just ask (brit here, and not familiar with this policy), what happens if you're on vacation and your home is empty while there's heavy snowfall? you just come back to a fine and a potential lawsuit or what?

there was a story on the BBC where some government douche thought people here should try to clear the roads themselves instead of waiting for the councils to do it. not gonna happen. were paying way over the odds to our pathetically inept councils as it is without doing their job for them.

 

[Thump553]

tommo123: Yes. Part of your responsibility as a property owner is to make arrangements for care of your property while you are gone.

drebo: My apologies, I didn't realize you were from California. Now I understand.

 

[GoPackGo]

We are required in NJ to clear the sidewalks within 48 hrs after storm stops.

The problem isn't having to clear the snow, but the four hour rule is way too low. It should be a minimum of 24 hours. Anything less is an undue burden.