The 'Snow Police'

[GoPackGo]

I would honestly rather pay higher taxes and have them done by the city than have people forced to do it or be fined. It is a public roadway. It should be financed and maintained by the public.

Imagine the uproar if cities started requiring homeowners to shovel the street in front of their house...."budget cuts"

 

[Genx87]

Imagine the uproar if cities started requiring homeowners to shovel the street in front of their house...."budget cuts"

That is a logical next step isnt it?

 

[BeauJangles]

That is a logical next step isnt it?

There's nothing quite like a red herring, is there?

 

[drebo]

There's nothing quite like a red herring, is there?

Kinda like the red herring of people elsewhere paying for public works in your municipality. Doesn't exactly work like that.

 

[PingSpike]

There's nothing quite like a red herring, is there?

Seems like the only difference between the two scenarios is one is happening and the other isn't.

 

[Thump553]

Seems like the only difference between the two scenarios is one is happening and the other isn't.

Absolute nonsense. From a practical matter the most cost effective and efficient way to clear sidewalks is to have the property owners be responsible for it. That certainly cannot be said about street plowing. I have a fairly long frontage but it takes the town plow maybe a minute to plow "my half" the road. It would probably take me 3-4 hours with my snowblower, more fuel used and a worse job done-and in the meantime traffic would be grossly impeded.

The whining in this thread reminds me of one of my sons teenage years when I had to draft him into helping with the snow shoveling.

 

[ShawnD1]

Absolute nonsense. From a practical matter the most cost effective and efficient way to clear sidewalks is to have the property owners be responsible for it. That certainly cannot be said about street plowing. I have a fairly long frontage but it takes the town plow maybe a minute to plow "my half" the road. It would probably take me 3-4 hours with my snowblower, more fuel used and a worse job done-and in the meantime traffic would be grossly impeded.

Who would plow the freeway?

 

[Scotteq]

Who would plow the freeway?

"Spring"

 

[ShawnD1]

The whining in this thread reminds me of one of my sons teenage years when I had to draft him into helping with the snow shoveling.

He doesn't understand why that's his job because the snow is not a problem for him. He can just hop through the snow and catch the bus. You're the one who needs to remove the snow before you can get your car out



I don't really get why shoveling the sidewalk is such a big deal. I walked a lot when I was a student taking a bus for all of those years and the sidewalks never really gave me a problem. I also thought that snow packed from people walking on it provided much better traction than a shoveled sidewalk ever did. My shoes never had good grip, so walking on a shoveled sidewalk was difficult and dangerous because it's really just concrete with some ice filling in the holes whereas a sidewalk with snow on it usually provided good traction.

 

[BladeVenom]

In many states you continue to own the property underneath the sidewalk, the government merely has an easement across it. The property owner, by ordinance, is responsible for shoveling and otherwise maintaining the sidewalk.

Good point. It seems some people are lacking in knowledge about easements. If you bought a property with an easement, it's your own fault. If you don't want to shovel sidewalks, find a house that doesn't have them.

 

[thepd7]

drebo: My apologies, I didn't realize you were from California. Now I understand.

this.


Also, OP and anyone else bitching about this should move to New Hampshire. They plow the interstates but everything else is shit. The taxes are low but just like anywhere else, you get what you pay for. I'm betting they don't generally require this.

I actually like New Hampshire and am considering moving there when I move out of the city, I just think they take "Live Free or Die" a little too seriously.

 

[xj0hnx]

I don't really get why shoveling the sidewalk is such a big deal.

It isn't the shoveling of the sidewalk that is the big deal, it's the idea of the government forcing people to maintain public property under threat of fine. It's not too far from "the water main under you sidewalk busted and now not only is it leaking, but the sidewalk is collapsed above it, and you have to pay for the fixing of the main, and the sidewalk." Would you like to pay for repairs to the water main and the sidewalk? Do you think you should have to?

 

[ShawnD1]

It isn't the shoveling of the sidewalk that is the big deal, it's the idea of the government forcing people to maintain public property under threat of fine. It's not too far from "the water main under you sidewalk busted and now not only is it leaking, but the sidewalk is collapsed above it, and you have to pay for the fixing of the main, and the sidewalk." Would you like to pay for repairs to the water main and the sidewalk? Do you think you should have to?

It just comes down to a vote of would people rather do it themselves or would people rather increase taxes and have the city do it for them. Both ways work great and there's no wrong answer. Some places decided that it's better to have people do it themselves or to hire child labor. A kid will do your whole driveway and sidewalk for $10. City employees would get maybe $30/h plus benefits and pension and the cost of a bobcat.

 

[xj0hnx]

It just comes down to a vote of would people rather do it themselves or would people rather increase taxes and have the city do it for them. Both ways work great and there's no wrong answer. Some places decided that it's better to have people do it themselves or to hire child labor. A kid will do your whole driveway and sidewalk for $10. City employees would get maybe $30/h plus benefits and pension and the cost of a bobcat.

The point isn't the labor to get it done, or that it's just a good thing to do for the community, it that it starts treading on unfriendly territory when the government starts forcing people to maintain public property under threat of a fine. Do you think you should be liable for repairs to a damaged water pipe and subsequent damage to a sidewalk on your property, or fined if you don't fix them?

 

[ShawnD1]

The point isn't the labor to get it done, or that it's just a good thing to do for the community, it that it starts treading on unfriendly territory when the government starts forcing people to maintain public property under threat of a fine. Do you think you should be liable for repairs to a damaged water pipe and subsequent damage to a sidewalk on your property, or fined if you don't fix them?

Depends whether or not you signed a contract saying you would maintain said pipes.

 

[xj0hnx]

Depends whether or not you signed a contract saying you would maintain said pipes.

Should you have to sign a contract saying you agree to shovel snow within four hours or face a fine?

 

[ShawnD1]

Should you have to sign a contract saying you agree to shovel snow within four hours or face a fine?

If that's what the rules say then that's what the rules say. If you don't like it, you could always rent so it's someone else's job then sue the landlord because he didn't shovel within 4 hours.

My friend's mom tried pulling some bullshit like this. Her mom was trying to sue the owner of the trailer park because she slipped near the mailboxes and hit her head on the ground. Keep in mind this happened in Canada where the cost to fix said head was $0 and she didn't miss any time off work because she's a stay at home mom whose youngest kid is 16....

 

[xj0hnx]

If that's what the rules say then that's what the rules say. If you don't like it, you could always rent so it's someone else's job then sue the landlord because he didn't shovel within 4 hours.

Would you please stop avoiding the question? Do you think that a home owner should be liable to bear the cost of fixing a sidewalk that is wrecked by a water pipe that goes under it? I seriously doubt that every home owner in NY had a "shovel the sidewalk in front of your house within four hours of it snowing or get fined" clause in their contracts, so I guess that you don't agree with this fine.

Or here's one that happened at our old house, the city buses weighted too much for the road and displaced large amounts of asphalt over time, which caused the side walk to buckle, should the home owner have to pay for that because the bus stop was in front of his house?

 

[hal2kilo]

Would you please stop avoiding the question? Do you think that a home owner should be liable to bear the cost of fixing a sidewalk that is wrecked by a water pipe that goes under it? I seriously doubt that every home owner in NY had a "shovel the sidewalk in front of your house within four hours of it snowing or get fined" clause in their contracts, so I guess that you don't agree with this fine.

Or here's one that happened at our old house, the city buses weighted too much for the road and displaced large amounts of asphalt over time, which caused the side walk to buckle, should the home owner have to pay for that because the bus stop was in front of his house?

No, but, you probably would only get justice if you hire a lawyer a $300 an hour. People seem so irritated anymore. Does the phrase you can't fight city hall ring a bell?

I'm just gettting tired of everyone thinking that the external entity, government has now reared it's ugly head out of nowhereall of the sudden. This is the price we pay for being "civilized". Where I grew up, we had snow emergency routes and if your car was in the wayof the plow, it got towed. Also, requiring people to clear the sidewalks of snow is not an uncommom law, although, I can't in my memory ever remembering hearing of a case where it was enforced.

On the other hand, I have heard of some f'k suing someone for clearing their walk which depending on the weather circumstances, actually made is slicker and falling down then suing them.

 

[mpo]

Would you please stop avoiding the question? Do you think that a home owner should be liable to bear the cost of fixing a sidewalk that is wrecked by a water pipe that goes under it? I seriously doubt that every home owner in NY had a "shovel the sidewalk in front of your house within four hours of it snowing or get fined" clause in their contracts, so I guess that you don't agree with this fine.

Or here's one that happened at our old house, the city buses weighted too much for the road and displaced large amounts of asphalt over time, which caused the side walk to buckle, should the home owner have to pay for that because the bus stop was in front of his house?

It's not a hypothetical in my city. For winter maintenance, you are required to remove snow from sidewalks within 24 hours of the snow ending.

As to the water pipe, it is settled law, too. The city is responsible for maintaining mains and trunks and associated valves. The homeowner is responsible for drops/connections to the house. If your sidewalk collapses because of a leaky valve, the city will pick up the bill. If it is the connection to the house, SOL, you will have to pay for the fix. (And yes, the city just completed a 10 year program to fix any substandard sidewalks. I had to replace ~1/5 of the panels in my yard. If you lived on a corner lot, the city would pick up half the cost. Seems fair.)

One last thing, prior to the Good Roads Movement (1870s to ~1920s) most rural roads were gravel and in very rough shape. Most were not built to all-weather standards, and not passable for a portion of the year.

Back then, many states/counties instituted a labor program to maintain roads. Able-bodied men were required to provide labor for a number of days to work on the roads. If they did not want to work on the roads, they could send someone in their place. If not, they could be fined.

From Alaska Territory ca. 1904:

Road overseers of the different precincts are authorized, and it is made their duty, to warn out all male persons between eighteen and fifty years of age who have resided thirty days in the district of Alaska, who are capable of performing labor on roads or trails, and who are not a precinct charge, to perform two days' work of eight hours each in locating, constructing, or repairing public roads or trails, under the direction of the road overseer within whose precinct they may respectively reside, or furnish a substitute to do the same, or pay the sum of four dollars per day for two days' labor, and said road overseer shall receipt for the same and shall expend it in location, construction, or repairs on the public roads and trails within his precinct; and any moneys so received and not expended shall be paid over to his successor in office, who shall expend the same as above provided.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Would you please stop avoiding the question? Do you think that a home owner should be liable to bear the cost of fixing a sidewalk that is wrecked by a water pipe that goes under it? I seriously doubt that every home owner in NY had a "shovel the sidewalk in front of your house within four hours of it snowing or get fined" clause in their contracts, so I guess that you don't agree with this fine.

Or here's one that happened at our old house, the city buses weighted too much for the road and displaced large amounts of asphalt over time, which caused the side walk to buckle, should the home owner have to pay for that because the bus stop was in front of his house?

Answers are pretty simple if you know the law.

They should take away all sidewalks and make people step out right into the road. I bet that'll make you happy.

 

[ShawnD1]

They should take away all sidewalks and make people step out right into the road. I bet that'll make you happy.

Where I live, the city often plows snow to the side of the road without actually hauling the snow away (they haul it away later after it has built up for a while). If there was no side walk, the city would likely demand people shovel the giant snow pile on the side of the road so pedestrians had some place to walk :awe:

 

[xj0hnx]

Answers are pretty simple if you know the law.

They should take away all sidewalks and make people step out right into the road. I bet that'll make you happy.

Mine was just a response to people saying the sidewalk is the home owners responsibility, apparently it is, or wait, it isn't, oh it is, no it isn't.

I personally don't give a hoot what people do with the snow, I usually where shorts and t-shirts all winter here.