The saga is over! :)

[rahvin]

Rossman,

For future reference whenever you sell something like a car you should tell the owner everything you know about the car. This would include telling them it's a salvage title. If you know this information and fail to disclose it at the time of sale you open yourself up to civil liability. This is in fact the same rules you must abide by when you transfer things like homes. You MUST tell the buyer everything you know.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Did you tell them it was a salvaged title? Aren't you required to do that?

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: rahvin
Rossman,

For future reference whenever you sell something like a car you should tell the owner everything you know about the car. This would include telling them it's a salvage title. If you know this information and fail to disclose it at the time of sale you open yourself up to civil liability. This is in fact the same rules you must abide by when you transfer things like homes. You MUST tell the buyer everything you know.

Ahem - not exactly. You are not under any legal obligation to tell the buyer anything - that is the whole point of an as-is sale (which every used car sale is, unless the seller includes an explicit warranty). The seller cannot lie if asked a question, and cannot take affirmative measures to disguise a defect, but there is no requirement that a seller take steps to disclose problems. I would assume the salvage title would be obvious to the buyer, who should presumably take the actual titling document as part of the sales transaction.

 

[Perknose]

RossMAN, sorry to hear about your troubles.

As a side note, though, and just so you know, your car is "unit body" construction and has no frame, as do all modern cars except, so far as I can recall at this moment, the legacy Ford Crown Vic/ Mercury Marquis/ Lincoln Town Car.

Weight savings, you know.

 

[Christoph]

So, you gave them the Oregon title, which presumably has a spot for you to sign your interest in the car over to the new owner, and they gave you a check. Bill of sale or no, it sounds like your deal is done.

The reason Washington state wants a bill of sale is because Washington collects sales tax (or use tax for a car bought out-of-state) on the sale price of the car. My experience with buying and selling cars in this price range is that most buyers prefer to pay cash, so the amount on the bill of sale can be adjusted to benefit the buyer's tax situation.

It was nice of you to accept a personal check, but you could've at least gone to the issuing CU and cashed it right away, rather than depositing it in your own account.

My opinion (and of course, IANAL) is that you're under no obligation to take the car back/refund some money/whatever unless you feel like doing it out of kindness.

Of course, if they stop payment and try and return the car, you might be stuck having to sue them, and it might be easier to just take the car.

But I would just send them the bill of sale, and do or say nothing else. Let them make the next move.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: Don_Vito

Originally posted by: rahvin
Rossman,

For future reference whenever you sell something like a car you should tell the owner everything you know about the car. This would include telling them it's a salvage title. If you know this information and fail to disclose it at the time of sale you open yourself up to civil liability. This is in fact the same rules you must abide by when you transfer things like homes. You MUST tell the buyer everything you know.

Ahem - not exactly. You are not under any legal obligation to tell the buyer anything - that is the whole point of an as-is sale (which every used car sale is, unless the seller includes an explicit warranty). The seller cannot lie if asked a question, and cannot take affirmative measures to disguise a defect, but there is no requirement that a seller take steps to disclose problems. I would assume the salvage title would be obvious to the buyer, who should presumably take the actual titling document as part of the sales transaction.

Argue that in front of a Judge. Most buyers ask if there is anything wrong with the car. A salvage title could be considered something wrong with the car. You get a civil claim about this and you didn't disclose it was a salvage at the time of sale and you will more than likely be taking the car back.

 

[evergreen96]

RossMan.

As far as I know, used cars sales are AS-Is unless it in written

 

[DougK62]

As far as I can see, the only thing that you did wrong was not get guaranteed funds like a cashier's check or MO. I've sold more than 10 used cars and I've never even bothered with a Bill of Sale. I took their money, they took the car, and I signed the title over to them. Case closed. This is really all that you need to do. Used cars are always sold "as is" unless you make other arrangements.It's the buyer's responsibility to make sure they are getting what they want.

 

[RossMAN]

I should have gone to the issuing CU and cashed their check for cash, that's an excellent idea. Why didn't I think of that?

Well I received a voicemail from the mother stating the local Toyota dealership was all booked for today so they didn't get to look at the car. She said they would look at it tomorrow and her daughter REALLY wants it. I guess what sparked their concern was seeing "TOTALLED RECONSTRUCTED" on the Oregon title, duh! They could have asked me that while I was there signing the freakin' title with them! I am going to modify the hell out of the standard Oregon DMV bill of sale putting in a bunch of legal mumbo jumbo and get it notarized with them tomorrow. I don't know how to take this but she said in her voicemail that her son is a police officer and that I can trust them not to do anything to the car. WTF do I care if they do anything to the car, it's THEIRS not mine. I have already cancelled the classifieds ad, cancelled my insurance policy and called the Oregon DMV yesterday notifying them I have sold the car to the Washingtonians.

Argh I wish I didn't get riled up so easily but this is $3,300 we're talking about. If I ever buy/sell a used car again I have learned my lesson. Be 100% honest and forthcoming upfront, NEVER ASSUME anything, accept only cashier's check and always be ready to have a bill of sale notarized at time of sale.

I hope everything goes ok at the Toyota dealership tomorrow, I'm gonna be on pins and needles until I hear from them. When I meet them to have the bill of sale notarized I'm gonna give them a piece of my mind AFTER it's been signed and notarized.

 

[TwinkleToes77]

Originally posted by: Christoph
So, you gave them the Oregon title, which presumably has a spot for you to sign your interest in the car over to the new owner, and they gave you a check. Bill of sale or no, it sounds like your deal is done.

The reason Washington state wants a bill of sale is because Washington collects sales tax (or use tax for a car bought out-of-state) on the sale price of the car. My experience with buying and selling cars in this price range is that most buyers prefer to pay cash, so the amount on the bill of sale can be adjusted to benefit the buyer's tax situation.

It was nice of you to accept a personal check, but you could've at least gone to the issuing CU and cashed it right away, rather than depositing it in your own account.

My opinion (and of course, IANAL) is that you're under no obligation to take the car back/refund some money/whatever unless you feel like doing it out of kindness.

Of course, if they stop payment and try and return the car, you might be stuck having to sue them, and it might be easier to just take the car.

But I would just send them the bill of sale, and do or say nothing else. Let them make the next move.

I agree.. firstly if it was a salvaged car title then they would have seen it when you signed the title over to them, and they also had an obligation to themselves to run a carfax on the VIN to see what other kinds of history the car has beyond you owning the car.

 

[TNTrulez]

That's sad. That's why I go cash only and name transfer at DMV.

 

[apoppin]

I can't believe any Ferengi - especially RossMAN - would take a personal check for $3,300 (or at least cashing it at their bank BEFORE giving them the title).

That was your only mistake.

I never give a bill of sale or any warranty with any car that I sell - only dealers have to do that.

 

[RossMAN]

Yes I know I screwed up big time for several reasons, this whole waiting game until tomorrow is killing me.

 

[apoppin]

I almost forgot . . .

Good luck! . . .

and

get some sleep (being anxious won't help or change anything) . . .

and of course, let us know what happens.

 

[Draknor]

RossMan - relax!!

It sounds like everything is basically under control. They'll have the car checked out, I'm guessing you trust your mechanic friend, so I'm sure he did a good job, and everything will be cool... just relax, man

Besides, the waiting is the worst, but there's not a d@mn thing you can do about it - so why sit & get bent about it? You've done what you can do, and that's it. I'm sure it's very frustrating for you (I know it would be for me!!), but, for tonight, at least - veg!

Rent a good movie, or do something with your family/wife - something fun & enjoyable. If you can't think of anything, I'm sure there are plenty ATOT'ers who could give you ideas

 

[PsychoAndy]

Originally posted by: apoppin
I can't believe any Ferengi - especially RossMAN - would take a personal check for $3,300 (or at least cashing it at their bank BEFORE giving them the title).

That was your only mistake.

I never give a bill of sale or any warranty with any car that I sell - only dealers have to do that.

<---Major Ferengi here

I have NEVER accepted a personal check for ANYTHING above $200.

The only time I get personal checks is when no talent ass clowns on egay send me them in conflict with the CASHIERS CHECK/MONEY ORDER part of the item description.

In that case, I deposit it. If they ask when they get their product, i tell them about a month. 7-10 biz days to clear plus transit time. If its big money, I would be inclined to contact them and sort it out.

I'm not sure what the disclosure laws are in Portland, but this may not be a simple issue to resolve. As far as my thinking goes, he did disclose that the car was in an accident. Did the title state it was totalled (physically printed on it) at one point? If so, when he rec'd the check and handed them the keys and title they could have refused the sale then and there but instead went with it.

 

[apoppin]

Updates?

I can't believe you are waiting for your bank to open . . . I do the online banking thing; I know what's cleared shortly after midnight.

 

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones
Did you tell them it was a salvaged title? Aren't you required to do that?

I don't know about other states but I think in california it's the buyer's responsibility to ask and the seller has to answer the questions...

 

[RossMAN]

8/7 UPDATE: Just heard from the mother who left me a voicemail stating she heard from the Toyota dealership that it's going to cost $715 to fix some oil leaks and some other crap she offered to fax the quote to me but I said no thanks because I'm annoyed, pissed off and relieved that they don't want their money back. Oh yeah and she said in her voice mail she thinks it's only fair that we split the repair costs, LOL. So I called back sounding annoyed, irritated and slightly pissed off. I told her I would refund $300 via cashier's check ONLY if she agrees to the following:
1) We wait until her $3,300 personal check clears which she stated has already cleared and she's probably right but I'll confirm this Friday morning before we meet.
2) I am going to type up about 20 lines of legal mumbo jumbo basically an AS IS - NO WARRANTY disclaimer and a bunch of other BS I'll whip up. So if anything goes wrong with the car either indirectly or directly I am released from all responsibility and it's her problem, not mine.
3) She will agree to sign this bill of sale and have it notarized at my CU at a time which is convenient for me which is this Friday at 5:00 PM.

Oh well it could have been a lot worse. I'm tempted to call her again and piss her off but I'll refrain, for now.

 

[RossMAN]

Originally posted by: apoppin
Updates?

I can't believe you are waiting for your bank to open . . . I do the online banking thing; I know what's cleared shortly after midnight.

My CU offers online banking and I was checking it this morning at 5:20 AM, it shows the check being deposited but there's a 3 day hold on it (standard procedure for them). I'll confirm with the buyers CU that the check has cleared and the funds are in my account before we meet this Friday and I give her the $300 refund she does NOT rightfully deserve.

 

[ThunderGirl]

Originally posted by: RossMAN
Cars can be salvaged even for something as minimal as the car seats being ripped out and stolen.

Usually it's for severe cases like the car has been at the bottom of a pond or lake, fixed up and sold or a major wreck.

Unless I was blatantly lied to (which is entirely possible) when I was sold the car, the only damage was to the front end that's it. AFAIK the frame has never been bent and is still straight.

Here are the estimates for the car's worth, of course these don't take into account that it's a salvaged title:

Edmunds.com estimates the value at $4,087 which is broken down below:
Base price $3,350
Optional Equipment $522
Color Adjustment $25
Regional Adjustment $190
Mileage Adjustment $0
Condition Adjustment $0
Total $4,087

Kelley Blue Book (http://www.kbb.com/) values this car at $4,640

If they pursue a refund I'll probably give it to them but I think charging them for my time, advertising costs and use of the car is a good idea.

I just checked my voicemail and have heard nothing from me. Just checked my e-mail and received this from the mother (the above email is from Lisa, the daughter). This was in response to a call I made to them yesterday asking for the plate and VIN so I can list them on the BILL OF SALE:

--

From: Sara
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 16:14:34 EDT
Subject: corolla
To: Ross

Ross,
The plate number is x, the vin number is x.
When we
recieve the reciept we will transfer title. If it's more convient for
you,
you can drop off the title. Thanks, Sara

--

WTF? This is confusing she's not even mentioning the previous e-mail sent from her daughter about checking out the car. If everything is ok should I mail them the bill of sale and spare key or physically meet them? I prefer mailing so there's no contact or questions or me losing my cool.

I know I should relax but I can't.

Also what is CYA?

If you do I would send it certified so you have proof they got it.

 

[RossMAN]

ThunderGirl - If I were still going to send the bill of sale and key to the buyers I'd probably go one step above sending it via USPS Registered mail. However they have agreed to meet me in person to sign the bill of sale and have it notarized at my CU this Friday afternoon.

I can't wait to get this over with and behind me, I thought it would be an easy process but because I'm such an idiot it isn't going that smoothly.

 

[Fritzo]

In most states, as long as money was exchanged, the "Buyer Beware" law in in effect. She had no right to ask for money....she gave you payment for your used goods, and since you're an individual, you have no requirement to offer any kind of a warranty. I've seen this case on Judy Judy a million times

 

[XMan]

Originally posted by: Fritzo
In most states, as long as money was exchanged, the "Buyer Beware" law in in effect. She had no right to ask for money....she gave you payment for your used goods, and since you're an individual, you have no requirement to offer any kind of a warranty. I've seen this case on Judy Judy a million times

Agreed, I wouldn't give her a damn thing, Ross.

It's 10+ years old. It leaks oil? Well no sh!t, Sherlock.

 

[athithi]

Hey, why should you have to shell out if they haven't got the best quote? Get a counter quote from a reputable service center in their area and if it's lower than the dealer quote, tell them that 50% of that is all you are obligated to pay. If it's higher...what the heck, atleast you tried