The rich have unions, so why Are regular Americans against unions for themselves.

[cubby1223]

Here's the primary difference between unions & lobbyists - lobbyists are held accountable for their actions. As a lobbyist you must produce results for the benefit of your client, else you will be replaced.

There really isn't an equivalent in unions. If the worker union you are a member of doesn't produce results to your benefit, your options to replace the union are virtually non-existent. And, I'd have to search around more than I care too, so take this as just my memory, I believe the large unions have helped make forming a new union incredibly difficult, so that if you want to unionize you are almost forced to join one of the large already established unions.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Unions only work when the alternative sources of labor have additional overhead costs involved... the amount extra you earn in wages is slightly less than the overhead costs of alternative labor sources.

Guess what advancements in technology, communication, & travel have done to the overhead costs of foreign labor?

The union model of the past is severely broken in today's reality. And, sorry, the cause was not a bunch of rich people having a meeting declaring it so.

The world doesn't work by wishing you were rich and magically riches are bestowed upon you.


Obviously I would rather make more money than I do currently. But I also prefer to live within the confines of reality, rather than living in fantasy-land. You have to be aware of where your leverage is and is not in negotiations, because if you double-down where you have no leverage, you will fuck yourself over every time.

Exactly. Industrial age thinking just doesn't work any more. Get with the times and rid yourselves of the backwards thinking. It's a new era, the old era thinking will get nothing but further behind.

 

[berzerker60]

Here's the primary difference between unions & lobbyists - lobbyists are held accountable for their actions. As a lobbyist you must produce results for the benefit of your client, else you will be replaced.

There really isn't an equivalent in unions. If the worker union you are a member of doesn't produce results to your benefit, your options to replace the union are virtually non-existent. And, I'd have to search around more than I care too, so take this as just my memory, I believe the large unions have helped make forming a new union incredibly difficult, so that if you want to unionize you are almost forced to join one of the large already established unions.

Uhh, they're called elections

 

[cubby1223]

Uhh, they're called elections

(1) have you ever been in a union?
(2) have you ever wanted to change the person who represents you?
(3) have you been able to get it accomplished?

Say you work for GM and are represented by UAW. What do you think your chances are of replacing UAW if you & your factory coworkers don't believe UAW is productive towards your benefit? It ain't happening, UAW is representing you, end of story.

Let's say you were a Hostess worker represented by BCTGM. Do you believe the workers had the capability to switch their representation before they all lost their jobs?

But no, do continue living in fantasy-land.

People are greedy. Rich people are greedy. Middle-income people are greedy. Poor people are greedy. Everyone is greedy. That's why you can't plot out rules for a perfect world. It's why you need leverage to get ahead of someone else. If you want someone else's wealth, you need leverage in order to take it. Unions had leverage in the past. Other than a few exceptions, unions no longer have any leverage other than karma. Karma is not leverage.


This forum is more arguing with idiots than it ever is productive discussions.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

(1) have you ever been in a union?
(2) have you ever wanted to change the person who represents you?
(3) have you been able to get it accomplished?

Why even ask. It's obvious he's clueless and just a shill for unions.

 

[Gardener]

Why even ask. It's obvious he's clueless and just a shill for unions.

How old are you?

 

[DCal430]

Uhh, they're called elections

Union elections are not democratic, they aren't open to all qualified candidates. Non elected people in the union leadership selects who can run.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

How old are you?

Old enough to know that someone claiming that union elections were the answer to the question asked is a moron.

I've been alive for 6 presidents so far if you really must know.

 

[soundforbjt]

Old enough to know that someone claiming that union elections were the answer to the question asked is a moron.

I've been alive for 6 presidents so far if you really must know.

So only old enough to witness when the unions were going downhill for various reasons and not old enough to see them in their "prime" when they were doing great things for the average factory workers. Not surprised.

 

[berzerker60]

(1) have you ever been in a union?
(2) have you ever wanted to change the person who represents you?
(3) have you been able to get it accomplished?

Yes, I am and have been in unions for basically my entire professional life. Mine have been pretty decently run, but there are elections every other year, with various people campaigning to represent us, and detailed newsletters describing what's going on. I don't agree with everything they do, but I actually know my union rep. I don't closely study the candidates in union elections, honestly, but I do vote in them. So yes, I've contributed to changing union leadership, same as I've been part of 'overthrowing' the US government every time I vote for a non-incumbent for president.

You don't replace UAW, you replace the leadership of UAW. And yes, that's hard to do, but that doesn't let you off the hook if you aren't voting and involved. There aren't competing governments for the landmass known as the United States of America, and it would be a real bitch to replace the US government, too, but happily we can dramatically change the government every 2-4 years through elections. Replacing the union/government is only necessary in truly extreme circumstances.

Why even ask. It's obvious he's clueless and just a shill for unions.

Well, fuck you too, I guess.

Union elections are not democratic, they aren't open to all qualified candidates. Non elected people in the union leadership selects who can run.

Depends on the union, unless you're referring to the NLRB or something.

Unions are far from perfect, but they've historically been a huge force in making America a far, far, far better place for the vast majority of Americans. Governments aren't the only possibly sources of tyranny - corporations can be corrupt, tyrannical, and invasive too. Unions are one check to that.

 

[DCal430]

Yes, I am and have been in unions for basically my entire professional life. Mine have been pretty decently run, but there are elections every other year, with various people campaigning to represent us, and detailed newsletters describing what's going on. I don't agree with everything they do, but I actually know my union rep. I don't closely study the candidates in union elections, honestly, but I do vote in them. So yes, I've contributed to changing union leadership, same as I've been part of 'overthrowing' the US government every time I vote for a non-incumbent for president.

You don't replace UAW, you replace the leadership of UAW. And yes, that's hard to do, but that doesn't let you off the hook if you aren't voting and involved. There aren't competing governments for the landmass known as the United States of America, and it would be a real bitch to replace the US government, too, but happily we can dramatically change the government every 2-4 years through elections. Replacing the union/government is only necessary in truly extreme circumstances.



Well, fuck you too, I guess.



Depends on the union, unless you're referring to the NLRB or something.

Unions are far from perfect, but they've historically been a huge force in making America a far, far, far better place for the vast majority of Americans. Governments aren't the only possibly sources of tyranny - corporations can be corrupt, tyrannical, and invasive too. Unions are one check to that.

I am talking about my Union SEIU, worst union ever.

 

[DCal430]

You have to give $50 a month in political money to the union in order to vote, no thanks. No point when who can run isn't even open to all.

 

[DCal430]

The stupid thing is you have only a few days each year to opt out of the $600 a year non deductible political contribution. Every year you must hand deliver a personal letter to opt out.

 

[Subyman]

Every year you must hand deliver a personal letter to opt out.

The burden you endure!

 

[DCal430]

The burden you endure!

I shouldn't be forced to give to political candidates I don't support. $600 is a lot of money to force out of people. What if you want to go on vacation at the time. It makes it very inconvenient, since the location to deliver the letter is no where near our work place.

 

[DCal430]

The stupid thing is when you start working you aren't notified of this political contribution, and that you have a few days to opt out. I found out a month after I was hired, and the union refused to stop taking $50 a month for political contributions.

 

[Hugo Drax]

Just have to put one in, WTF would the rich have unions ?

They are more concerned with busting them and always have been.

They do, they have collective bargaining. They have groups of people write laws for thier needs and then hand them to congress along with a check so it gets signed into law.

Why do you think we have so many H1b visa jobs, it was due to the collective barganing power of the fatcats who had congress put this into law.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

So only old enough to witness when the unions were going downhill for various reasons and not old enough to see them in their "prime" when they were doing great things for the average factory workers. Not surprised.

So since I'm not 70+ I just "don't understand" right?

Wrong - the times are changing. The industrial age is over so it's time to stop holding on to these old notions.

I work with unions all the time in my profession. Some locals are fine, others I won't deal with(or over quote the project knowing the headache coming). I will never join one but if some people think they need one - fine join, but don't force others to join/pay just to have/keep their job.

 

[Fern]

The rich have unions representing thier needs in congress yet regular middle and lower class Americans are anti Union for themselves. How the heck did this happen.

Why would you be against having representation in congress yet be okay with the rich having representation.

WTH?

The purpose of a union is not to gain representation in Congress.

Plus, it seems to me the average worker, paying the dues, has zero input into what the union will push as far as politics goes.

Just find a PAC that supports what you want and donate to it. You can fire them (withhold contributions), but you can't do that with a union.

Fern

 

[cubby1223]

Yes, I am and have been in unions for basically my entire professional life. Mine have been pretty decently run, but there are elections every other year, with various people campaigning to represent us, and detailed newsletters describing what's going on. I don't agree with everything they do, but I actually know my union rep. I don't closely study the candidates in union elections, honestly, but I do vote in them. So yes, I've contributed to changing union leadership, same as I've been part of 'overthrowing' the US government every time I vote for a non-incumbent for president.

You don't replace UAW, you replace the leadership of UAW. And yes, that's hard to do, but that doesn't let you off the hook if you aren't voting and involved. There aren't competing governments for the landmass known as the United States of America, and it would be a real bitch to replace the US government, too, but happily we can dramatically change the government every 2-4 years through elections. Replacing the union/government is only necessary in truly extreme circumstances.

It's like saying, if you don't like Republicans or Democrats you can always vote third party! See, you have options!

 

[cubby1223]

Unions used to have leverage in the past, and they thrived, and workers thrived. Their leverage is gone, and on top of that, those few who still do have leverage are very selfish and cause damage to the greater issues across the country.

Look at the longshoremen strike causing havoc for a lot of businesses trying to move product. What is the strike in effect doing? The strike is guaranteeing that the only businesses that can survive through them are the mega corporations with lots of cash reserves and high profit margins (read: low worker pay) to withstand this union. The small businesses who do take care of their workers are screwed. The union is broadcasting a gigantic Fuck You! to every other working class person in this country. Thanks, union! I appreciate your selfishness and utter disregard for anyone who isn't you!

 

[soundforbjt]

Unions used to have leverage in the past, and they thrived, and workers thrived. Their leverage is gone, and on top of that, those few who still do have leverage are very selfish and cause damage to the greater issues across the country.

Look at the longshoremen strike causing havoc for a lot of businesses trying to move product. What is the strike in effect doing? The strike is guaranteeing that the only businesses that can survive through them are the mega corporations with lots of cash reserves and high profit margins (read: low worker pay) to withstand this union. The small businesses who do take care of their workers are screwed. The union is broadcasting a gigantic Fuck You! to every other working class person in this country. Thanks, union! I appreciate your selfishness and utter disregard for anyone who isn't you!

That's the way it is now, but it used to be the unions would get better pay, more benefits, etc, and the smaller businesses would also raise their compensation to compete for workers.