The REAL Reason ATI WANTED to be acquired by AMD

[Creig]

Originally posted by: XNice

Originally posted by: razor2025
- AMD knows how to make things cool & efficient. ATI & Nvidia has been focused on simply pushing the next level of "pixel/sec" and pay little or no attention into efficiency of their GPUs. AMD can definitely use their skills to optimize ATI's GPU efficiency should ATI continues to play in discrete GPU market.

Bullshit, nvidia is publicly known for their efficient power handling, especially on their last 2 generations of gpu's. Try again next time...

Chill, dude.

Nvidia and ATI have both had similiar power requirements the last couple generations. A few watts one way or the other, but neither one has had an overwhelming advantage over the other. Try again next time...

Originally posted by: XNice

Originally posted by: apoppin
this thread started out . . . well intentioned - if one-sided . . . turned into a flame fest . . . and then settled down nicely into a real discussion
Happy Halloween

The "flame fest" was something you had a major part in from start to finish. I don't lean to one side or the other regarding NV/ATI, but out of everyone else, you are the most annoying fanboy. I hope people learn to ignore you and your female "emoticon" usage.

Lastly, it's a fvcking ACQUISITION not a MERGER. ATI is gone, they were BOUGHT! Why do I keep hearing this stuff about marriage and all that. AMD ACQUIRED Ati to compete with Intel. There is a huge difference between Acquisition and Merge. Jesus....

And yes, it is an acquisition. But according to AMD, they are keeping the ATi and Radeon brand names alive. So ATi is not truly gone. They are simply under the ownership of AMD now and will continue business as usual.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: Creig
Nvidia and ATI have both had similiar power requirements the last couple generations. A few watts one way or the other, but neither one has had an overwhelming advantage over the other. Try again next time...

With that statement you have branded yourself a true ATI fanboy. ATI has consistently had louder, hotter and more power hungry cards for the last several generations. To say otherwise is pretty much just a lie.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/power-noise.html

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: Creig
Nvidia and ATI have both had similiar power requirements the last couple generations. A few watts one way or the other, but neither one has had an overwhelming advantage over the other. Try again next time...

With that statement you have branded yourself a true ATI fanboy. ATI has consistently had louder, hotter and more power hungry cards for the last several generations. To say otherwise is pretty much just a lie.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/power-noise.html

you link to what specifically?

i really don't remember . . . and i haven't done research . . . but it appears they have both been pretty power-hungry for quite some time.

as i remember it . . .

6800u was a beast for it's day while 97-9800p were moderate . . . the x850xt drew a lot of power . . . so did the 7800 flagship . . . the x1800 were moderate as was the 7900s . . . the x1900xtx is a beast and it looks like g80 is a beast.

what did i miss?


it appears to be you brand EVERYONE who disagrees with you . . . a [what now?] AMD fanboy [since you say ATi is gone].

it's losing it's 'impact' and i am honoured to be called a fanboy --by you

fanboy, yourself

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: Creig
Nvidia and ATI have both had similiar power requirements the last couple generations. A few watts one way or the other, but neither one has had an overwhelming advantage over the other. Try again next time...

With that statement you have branded yourself a true ATI fanboy. ATI has consistently had louder, hotter and more power hungry cards for the last several generations. To say otherwise is pretty much just a lie.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/power-noise.html

Chill

 

[XNice]

exactly, and we all know they are keeping the brand names, but whatever strategic majority voice ATI had, won't be there anymore. ATI will do what is in the best interests of AMD or AMD/ATI now and not just for ATI. They aren't working with AMD, they're working for AMD. All of this speculation will be much more accurate if people understood that fundamental difference.

Apoppin, nobody likes a snitch.... only reason I even added that personal part is due to my tendecy to lurk rather than post. I hate reading 200 post threads where 60% of it is your bullshit bickering. Everytime I go to a thread that mentions NV you are always there flaming and getting flamed. The fact that you waste so much space to add useless emoticons and one word sentences just furthers my personal annoyance.

In conclusion, Go ATI, go Nvidia! And I hope Intel doesn't buy NVIDIA because I love AMD chips and will miss the awesome nvidia/amd mobo/cpu/gpu combo.

 

[otispunkmeyer]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Wreckage
This is not new, everyone knew that they were looking to make a CPU\GPU.

Originally posted by: apoppin

ATi merged to fight the growing threat from intel

They did not merge, they were bought out and dissolved.

. . . forget nvidia .... they are a small player now ....

No, they are the ONLY player now.

if by "only" you mean alone and vulnerable, you are correct, sir

i guess you didn't bother to READ the links

:Q

of course not

they would DESTROY you precious theories

it is NOT old news

is is NOT about "looking to make a CPU\GPU"

it is about evolving platforms, countering future threats and creating strategic partnerships ....

it is about creating one awesome company that will be able to beat both intel and nvidia

................

and microsoft is a major player also that will side with AMD to tip the balance away from intel [and poor little "only" nvidia]



EDIT: . . . must be feeling a little 'cold' in Texas . . . the only target left in the GPU business . . . and i guess their fans are also feeling the desperation or they wouldn't post such silly and unfounded rumours as "theories". ATi has NOT been dissolved - they are a division of AMD.

yep

i see the ATI AMD merger as a match made in heaven..... its going to be a very interesting future

nvidia are now seemingly all alone, but they are not out of the running. its times like these, when theres a couple of big players breathing down your neck that truely innovative and unexpected ideas pop out.

what ATi and AMD cook up in the kitchen will be interesting for sure, but im even more interested in seeing what nvidia can bake in their ovens to combat the bigger companies.

nvidia are a small company now, but theres some small animals on this planet that you just wouldnt want to back into a corner...because you would lose. not saying nvidia is one of those animals, but its something to ponder.

either way we are now moving away from new gpu -> refresh ->new gpu -> refresh
and thats a good thing.

its gonna be just immense!

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: otispunkmeyer
yep

i see the ATI AMD merger as a match made in heaven..... its going to be a very interesting future

nvidia are now seemingly all alone, but they are not out of the running. its times like these, when theres a couple of big players breathing down your neck that truely innovative and unexpected ideas pop out.

what ATi and AMD cook up in the kitchen will be interesting for sure, but im even more interested in seeing what nvidia can bake in their ovens to combat the bigger companies.

nvidia are a small company now, but theres some small animals on this planet that you just wouldnt want to back into a corner...because you would lose. not saying nvidia is one of those animals, but its something to ponder.

either way we are now moving away from new gpu -> refresh ->new gpu -> refresh
and thats a good thing.

its gonna be just immense!

i see it as win-win for us ... the consumers . . . and i expect even more graphics innovations at an accelerated rate in the future....that's what Vista brings.
========================

Originally posted by: XNice
exactly, and we all know they are keeping the brand names, but whatever strategic majority voice ATI had, won't be there anymore. ATI will do what is in the best interests of AMD or AMD/ATI now and not just for ATI. They aren't working with AMD, they're working for AMD. All of this speculation will be much more accurate if people understood that fundamental difference.

Apoppin, nobody likes a snitch.... only reason I even added that personal part is due to my tendecy to lurk rather than post. I hate reading 200 post threads where 60% of it is your bullshit bickering. Everytime I go to a thread that mentions NV you are always there flaming and getting flamed. The fact that you waste so much space to add useless emoticons and one word sentences just furthers my personal annoyance.

In conclusion, Go ATI, go Nvidia! And I hope Intel doesn't buy NVIDIA because I love AMD chips and will miss the awesome nvidia/amd mobo/cpu/gpu combo.

Ok, you don't like me anyway and you are intent on flaming and disrupting this thread ... consider it done!

 

[josh6079]

yep

i see the ATI AMD merger as a match made in heaven..... its going to be a very interesting future

nvidia are now seemingly all alone, but they are not out of the running. its times like these, when theres a couple of big players breathing down your neck that truely innovative and unexpected ideas pop out.

what ATi and AMD cook up in the kitchen will be interesting for sure, but im even more interested in seeing what nvidia can bake in their ovens to combat the bigger companies.

nvidia are a small company now, but theres some small animals on this planet that you just wouldnt want to back into a corner...because you would lose. not saying nvidia is one of those animals, but its something to ponder.

either way we are now moving away from new gpu -> refresh ->new gpu -> refresh
and thats a good thing.

its gonna be just immense!

That was more or less my feeling when I was having a discussion with another member in this thread about the GPU / CPU potentials. The anatomy of the computer is going to be redone in the near future, and it will prove to give performance increases. Either in HTX or Fusion.

 

[XNice]

Originally posted by: otispunkmeyer

i see the ATI AMD ACQUISITION as a match made in heaven..... its going to be a very interesting future

*sigh*

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: apoppin

i am honoured to be called a fanboy

I don't consider you to be a fanboy. I consider you to be a garden variety troll.

Fanboys usually have some knowledge of the subject, you just quote articles from the internet and then inundate your posts with smilies. I can only imagine that you were a big hit on AOL back in the day.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: apoppin

i am honoured to be called a fanboy

I don't consider you to be a fanboy. I consider you to be a garden variety troll.

Fanboys usually have some knowledge of the subject, you just quote articles from the internet and then inundate your posts with smilies. I can only imagine that you were a big hit on AOL back in the day.

but you DID call me fanboy before

what is it?


letsee . . . i post articles from the internet ... and generally have interesting discussions in threads... many of which i start ... i keep up with HW news and can easily hold 'my own' against the best of anyone here. i also tend to admit when i am wrong.

in contrast

i have never seen you admit an error
:Q

you tend to post completely attacking and ridiculing posts that link to nothing ... except fellow nvidia suporters who are far less lazy than you are in researching. You do no research, read no links i post, misquote and partially quote me continually . . .

did i mention your main weapon is 'ridicule' and casting doubt?

i'd say you fit your description of me ... exactly

EDIT: please . . . to the reasonable ones among us . . . let's get this discussion back on track

i am again heading off to work and look forward to a discussion .... not flames

peace and aloha

 

[XNice]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: apoppin

i am honoured to be called a fanboy

I don't consider you to be a fanboy. I consider you to be a garden variety troll.

Fanboys usually have some knowledge of the subject, you just quote articles from the internet and then inundate your posts with smilies. I can only imagine that you were a big hit on AOL back in the day.

And there goes the thread..... again. Seriously, this woulda been 10x more effective via pm.

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: Creig
Nvidia and ATI have both had similiar power requirements the last couple generations. A few watts one way or the other, but neither one has had an overwhelming advantage over the other. Try again next time...

With that statement you have branded yourself a true ATI fanboy. ATI has consistently had louder, hotter and more power hungry cards for the last several generations. To say otherwise is pretty much just a lie.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/power-noise.html

Well, I guess it depends on whose power consumption graphs you look at. These show the X1800/X1900 and 7800/7900 to be a bit closer.

http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=213&type=expert&pid=26

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2717&p=4


Yes, the Nvidia cards have overall lower power consumption than their ATi counterparts and Nvidia is to be commended for it. Anytime a manufacturer decreases power consumption while increasing performance, I applaud their efforts. But there's not an OUTRAGEOUS difference between them.

And since Xnice said "the last 2 generations" I took that to mean he included the X800/6800 series in his comment about power consumption. And the X800 series was generally lower than the 6800.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/ati-vs-nv-power_10.html


Try getting off that soapbox once in awhile.

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: apoppin
. . . ATi - not nvidia - designed and validated the new driver model at the heart of Windows Vista

Apoppin, as an MS guy myself I'm very curious to know where you found this. I had not heard that ATI had designed our driver model.



Others appear to be (somewhat impolitely) asking the same so I have read some of your responses already. The reason I'm asking is the explanation given thusfar:

Originally posted by: apoppin
According to Chris Jones, corporate vice president - Windows Core OS Division, Microsoft, "Microsoft will deliver a series of graphics innovations with Windows Vista that provide a customer experience that is second to none. We could not have achieved this without our partnership with ATI. From day one, ATI has played a key role in helping us design and validate the new driver model at the heart of Windows Vista, and ATI has since developed robust and performant drivers that highlight the capabilities of our new operating system."

microsoft didn't partner with nvidia
:thumbsdown:

...contains a logical fallacy.

The statements:
ATI partnered with MS
ATI played a key role
MS could not have achieved without ATI

Do not logically imply any of these statements:
nVidia did not partner with MS
nVidia did not play a key role
MS could have achieved without nVidia.


So, is there a different or more accurate source to support your statement?



(info on logical fallacies: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ )

 

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: ronnn
Toronto is good, only thing they are missing is a pro hockey team. But you can't have it all!

Eh? The Leafs aren't in Toronto anymore?

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Smilin

Originally posted by: apoppin
. . . ATi - not nvidia - designed and validated the new driver model at the heart of Windows Vista

Apoppin, as an MS guy myself I'm very curious to know where you found this. I had not heard that ATI had designed our driver model.



Others appear to be (somewhat impolitely) asking the same so I have read some of your responses already. The reason I'm asking is the explanation given thusfar:

Originally posted by: apoppin
According to Chris Jones, corporate vice president - Windows Core OS Division, Microsoft, "Microsoft will deliver a series of graphics innovations with Windows Vista that provide a customer experience that is second to none. We could not have achieved this without our partnership with ATI. From day one, ATI has played a key role in helping us design and validate the new driver model at the heart of Windows Vista, and ATI has since developed robust and performant drivers that highlight the capabilities of our new operating system."

microsoft didn't partner with nvidia
:thumbsdown:

...contains a logical fallacy.

The statements:
ATI partnered with MS
ATI played a key role
MS could not have achieved without ATI

Do not logically imply any of these statements:
nVidia did not partner with MS
nVidia did not play a key role
MS could have achieved without nVidia.


So, is there a different or more accurate source to support your statement?



(info on logical fallacies: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ )

a Source more accurate than your Employer?
:Q

i saw this as i was heading out the door ... i have little time

... i quoted your boss - Chris Jones, corporate vice president - Windows Core OS Division, Microsoft. ... he said "We could not have achieved this without our partnership with ATI."

my ONE conclusion is my own

i.e. <<nvidia didn't partner with Microsoft in the way Chris Jones of MS describes>>

the other 2 "conclusions" are made up by YOU and falsely attributed to me

and Smilin

Please IDENTIFY that you are an EMPLOYEE of Microsoft when you post about MS
it should be in your sig

c-ya!

EDIT:

Originally posted by: apoppin
. . . ATi - not nvidia - designed and validated the new driver model at the heart of Windows Vista

look again at the links at the first page

i gotta run

last edit:

here:http://www.techtree.com/India/News/AMD_...I_Vista_Ready_Chips/551-76790-581.html

[ATI has played a key role in helping us design and validate the new driver model at the heart of Windows Vista

 

[XNice]

last two generations were supposed to mean, 7800 and 7900 series. sorry for the confusion. The issue is about power consumption, heat, and loud fans; which are all related.

Not a huge issue by any means but I've heard ATI owners express concern, albeit not a huge one, over those aspects of their own ATI cards.

And yes Apoppin, we have to be careful, you never know who's a Guerrilla Marketer or not around here.

 

[Creig]

I have a 512mb X1800XT, an Opteron 144 @2.7GHz, a water-cooling setup and multiple case fans. So power consumption isn't really a major concern for me as I planned ahead and picked up an Antec TruePower 550w power supply when I was putting this system together. As far as heat/noise go, the HSF is DHES so heat goes straight out the back of the case and I have the fan set to a speed where it's barely audible but doesn't overheat/lock up.

 

[XNice]

You have a nice system. :thumbsup:

 

[Creig]

Thank you. It's not top of the line, but serves me well enough. I've pretty much decided I'm not going cutting edge anymore. For me, it's just not worth the price to own the latest generation products when the previous gen can be had for 1/2 the price and still has 3/4 the performance.

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Smilin

Originally posted by: apoppin
. . . ATi - not nvidia - designed and validated the new driver model at the heart of Windows Vista

Apoppin, as an MS guy myself I'm very curious to know where you found this. I had not heard that ATI had designed our driver model.



Others appear to be (somewhat impolitely) asking the same so I have read some of your responses already. The reason I'm asking is the explanation given thusfar:

Originally posted by: apoppin
According to Chris Jones, corporate vice president - Windows Core OS Division, Microsoft, "Microsoft will deliver a series of graphics innovations with Windows Vista that provide a customer experience that is second to none. We could not have achieved this without our partnership with ATI. From day one, ATI has played a key role in helping us design and validate the new driver model at the heart of Windows Vista, and ATI has since developed robust and performant drivers that highlight the capabilities of our new operating system."

microsoft didn't partner with nvidia
:thumbsdown:

...contains a logical fallacy.

The statements:
ATI partnered with MS
ATI played a key role
MS could not have achieved without ATI

Do not logically imply any of these statements:
nVidia did not partner with MS
nVidia did not play a key role
MS could have achieved without nVidia.


So, is there a different or more accurate source to support your statement?



(info on logical fallacies: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ )

a Source more accurate than your Employer?
:Q

i saw this as i was heading out the door ... i have little time

... i quoted your boss - Chris Jones, corporate vice president - Windows Core OS Division, Microsoft. ... he said "We could not have achieved this without our partnership with ATI."

my ONE conclusion is my own

i.e. nvidia didn't partner with Microsoft in the way Chris Jones of MS describes

Yes, that's the quote and conclussion I was most concerned with. I am not questioning the source. It's just that the source doesn't say what you conclude. It is a logical fallacy:
"partnership with ATI" does not logically imply "nvidia didn't partner with Microsoft".

So I would like a source (MS or otherwise) that DOES support your conclussion.

the other 2 "conclusions" are made up by YOU and falsely attributed to me

On the contrary I said they can NOT be concluded and I made no implication that you said them. They are merely further examples of logical fallacy. If I had attributed the additional statements to you I would have used the plural in this sentence: "So, is there a different or more accurate source to support your statement?"

and Smilin

Please IDENTIFY that you are an EMPLOYEE of Microsoft when you post about MS
it should be in your sig

c-ya!

You and I have been through this before. You do not show your employer in your Sig do you? I've been here since before I worked at MS and you never asked for my employer then did you? I can only conclude that it is something about MS that makes you wrongly feel that I am obliged to comply. Since I am not here in any official capacity as I have told you before, there is no reason for me to state such. Furthermore stating I am an employee of some company in my signature could be misinterpreted as giving some sort of warranty, rights, or official company statement. Just because my (or anyone else) profession causes a personal curiosity that I post about does not mean my post is anything other than my own personal comment.

Despite the fact that you happen to know who I work for doesn't really make this or other any personal information about me any of your business. So in response to your request: NO.

EDIT:

Originally posted by: apoppin
. . . ATi - not nvidia - designed and validated the new driver model at the heart of Windows Vista

look again at the links at the first page

i gotta run

last edit:

here:http://www.techtree.com/India/News/AMD_...I_Vista_Ready_Chips/551-76790-581.html

[ATI has played a key role in helping us design and validate the new driver model at the heart of Windows Vista

Yes, yes. You said this before but you are reaching an incorrect conclussion from it.

"ATI has played a key role" does NOT logically imply that "ATi - not nvidia - designed and validated the new driver model"

Nor does it logically exclude statements such as: "nvidia also played a key role" or "nvidia validated the new driver model" or "MS couldn't have done it without nVidia" (no one said these last three quoted statements...but the quote you used from Chris Jones does not logically imply they cannot be true...They may very well be true! but I don't know)



So back to it:
So, is there a different or more accurate source to support your statement?

 

[Aikouka]

My god, I read this entire thread and ... wow... just wow.

Appy and the crew, please just stop. 90% of this thread was bickering by you guys. It was as productive was watching monkeys fling fesces at eachother, except not nearly as amusing. (C'mon... monkeys throwing stuff at eachother, gotta give you at least a chuckle to see how inane it is ).

Now, to get back on topic. While reading this thread I had a retort in my mind and it seems Smilin got to it before I did. He's correct in stating that Apopin's remark about how nVidia could not have had a role simply because ATi did is completely baseless. Quite often, a role is not defined a term fitting a singular entity and in this case, the role of assisting Microsoft in graphical development can also be plural in nature.

With this, you can easily state as a hypothesis that nVidia worked with Microsoft at least in some manner. nVidia may not have great relations with Microsoft's home entertainment division, but there are more divisions to the company and Microsoft wants Vista to be competitive against all competitors and against Windows XP (as Vista serves as a replacement for WinXP, it can't exactly be designed to be lackluster in comparison). Ostracizing nVidia would go directly against this initiative.

I have no definitive proof, you have no definitive proof, but logic supports that nVidia would have had at least some correspondence with Microsoft over the DirectX10/Vista initiative. It's quite possible that ATi had more too.

Now to discuss ATi + AMD.

There is a good chance that AMD may eventually pull out of the discrete market. But this doesn't mean ATi would stop developing graphic processors. They'd still be working with AMD on the Fusion project, which is the basket that AMD is putting quite a few apples in at the moment.

Oh, and to discuss drivers...

After having an ATi TV Wonder Pro Remote Control Edition for a good 4 years or so, I have to say that I've grown to have an extreme dislike for ATi's software division. It's because of how bad the support was for the card (trust me, I didn't enjoy having the program lock up and being unable to close it without restarting my computer) that shows why I will not buy another ATi product. I simply do not trust their software support whether it be in the CCC or their drivers. Call me an "nVidiot" because of it, but they're my only other choice and I've had fairly good experiences with them. Although, I think I need to RMA my BFG card, I've been ignoring the graphical anomolies for too long.

 

[XNice]

Originally posted by: Creig
Thank you. It's not top of the line, but serves me well enough. I've pretty much decided I'm not going cutting edge anymore. For me, it's just not worth the price to own the latest generation products when the previous gen can be had for 1/2 the price and still has 3/4 the performance.

I have been doing the same thing ever since NVidia officially announced their committment to the 6 month product cycle. I just make sure ATI isn't blowing NV away with their current flagships(I personally detest CCC), and quietly buy the last generation's flagship at a bargain.

If ATI stopped making discrete graphics cards, then hopefully innovation will stop and allow us to enjoy our video cards abit longer. And maybe allow devs to stop relying on more juice to power their games , and hopefully spend more time writing even more efficient code.

 

[Zbox]

Originally posted by: apoppin
Microsoft acknowledges that they couldn't create Vista Graphics without ATi's assistance . . . ATi - not nvidia - designed and validated the new driver model at the heart of Windows Vista

you picked a loser

:laugh:

that must be why Vista performs like sh!t with the new graphics.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: josh6079

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
...When I get time I might check through my archives to see if I saved a local copy, but I don't think I did, (there was a lot from that era I should have preserved).

...like your mind.

I think I know why you hate ATi and any forum that supports them. You played a few rounds of Counter-Strike against some ATi employees, didn't you?

hehe, lol.