The REAL Reason ATI WANTED to be acquired by AMD

[ronnn]

Originally posted by: josh6079
Nvidia's Vista drivers have been reviewed to be better than ATi's current ones--although still needing much attention.

Link?

 

[schneiderguy]

Originally posted by: apoppin


Fool yourself ....stfu or post something useful

you are posting a useless flame . . . trolling this thread . . . and name calling

and you didn't even bother to quote the relevant part of my post . . . you are fitting the very definition of "troll" exactly

hypocrite

... i think you need to follow some of your own advice

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: schneiderguy

Originally posted by: apoppin


Fool yourself ....stfu or post something useful

you are posting a useless flame . . . trolling this thread . . . and name calling

and you didn't even bother to quote the relevant part of my post . . . you are fitting the very definition of "troll" exactly

hypocrite

... i think you need to follow some of your own advice

i think you are right . . . i am inflaming you guys

it was not intended that way... look at the title of the topic . . . it is the subject of several news articles that show 'why' AMD was interested in acquiring AMD . . .

i know some of the guys that prefer nvidia disagree with the articles [and also my opinion].

i am 100% fine with that.

HOWEVER, i Do take issue with people coming into the thread with the SOLE purpose of disrupting the discussion .... those people are trolling the thread.

and yes i am getting irritated and answering back in a way that i am not proud of.

so . . . you guys carry on without me for awhile while i compose myself.

 

[Nelsieus]

Originally posted by: apoppin
microsoft didn't partner with nvidia
so . .. when you guys game happily with Vista . . . eventually . . . know that it's CORE graphics components were designed by ATi.

The only "parnership" ATI and MS have is publically, and in regards to the X360. You can continue spinning the facts as you like, but the truth is, as I outline in my post, MS has spent just as much time with both nVidia and ATI. And second off, this "CORE Graphics component" you speak of is loosely defined, such that MS gives specs and code, and the developers (ATI and nVidia) design it.

And I'm sorry to break it to you, but a partership doesn't guarantee superior hardware. I'm going to buy the GPU that performs faster, and now what's publicized months before its release by some PR guy at MS.

Originally posted by: apoppin
and Wreckage . . . your 'fantasy' is becoming more pathetic than anything else . . . . i have quoted many relaiable sources . . . and you

All your sources seem to be the marketing reps. for AMD/ ATI/ and MS. A "relable" source is someone who can speak objectively without having to promote a certain product. So it seems your fantasy is falling apart without any credable insight to back you up.

Originally posted by: Zstream
85% of mobiles use ATI GPU's which is the future...

Actually, if you're referring to the mobile discreet market, you're quite mistaken. In the last quarter, ATI's discreet mobile marketshare has fallen from mid 70% down to the lower 60%, with nVidia consequently raising in marketshare of that sector by that similiar amount.

Originally posted by: apopin
is Vista out? . . . what do we know? .

Yes, it is. Not the final RTM version, but Vista has been out for several months now, along with drivers by both nVidia and ATI. If you would like to read up on it, Anandtech has a few reviews of each of Vista's newest build.

Originally posted by: Josh6079
I also tend to think that ATi already has some decent experience with making some DX10 compliant hardware and while R600 will arrive after G80, the amount of games existing between now and the supposed R600 launch aren't going to be DX10. I think I've seen a thread discussing how Crysis is going to be Q1 of 2007 anyways so the earliness of the G80 with it's $700 price tag isnt' very enticing if you ask me. Better to wait for the competition, especially if it may be one of the last competitive rounds we have.

Well then you obviously haven't done your research on the next generation. Aside from obviously offering DX10 support, G80 and R600 will offer increased DX9 support and performance, as well. So if this is un-needed in your opinion, then I'm not sure what games you're referring to (checkers?) 0_o

Also, I believe the MSRP for the Geforce 8800GTX is set between $599-$649. They will also be launching a less expensive GPU at the same time, the Geforce 8800GTS at an MSRP set to $449-$499. I suppose if supply is tight, we may see gouging, but so far, we have no evidence to support that fact, except for an INQ report that claims it's a possibility (well duh).

Originally posted by: Josh6079
Yes, one man sabotaged the performance of the FX series and it wasn't Nvidia's fault at all.

Don't forget, it was one man who discovered that nasty bug in R520's production causing devastating yields. Apparently, one person can make quite a difference.

Originally posted by: apopin
what laughing that your company wasn't good enough to be chosen by MS?

I think he's laughing at you, along with most other people at this point, as well.

Nelsieus

EDIT: few spelling errors.

 

[josh6079]

Originally posted by: ronnn

Originally posted by: josh6079
Nvidia's Vista drivers have been reviewed to be better than ATi's current ones--although still needing much attention.

Link?

Legit Reviews.com

Don't get me wrong, both need some big improvements, but for ATi supposedly having some nice relations with Microsoft's Vista, their drivers seem to be lacking too much.

The first time they tried the most recent ATi Vista drivers (8.29.100.0) the computer crashed in less than a minute, the monitor said it was out of range regardless of it being at its rated specs, and while trying to enter into safe-mode they received the blue screen of death multiple times, and those were on their most recent and up-to-date Vista drivers.

Even when they used their more stable Vista drivers (7.15.11.0) they still were right next to Nvidia's in that they were fairly stable but didn't have any multi-GPU support. And once they were using the most stable Vista drivers that ATi had to offer, they only worked on 3 games and gave no performance increases to any of them. Pretty strange for a company that Microsoft claims to have worked closely with in Vista.

Nvidia's Vista drivers was able to run 4 games while giving an 85% increase to at least one of them:

One shocker was DOOM 3 with 16X AA enabled Vista RC1 was actually 85% faster at 1600x1200 and we triple checked the numbers making sure it wasn't just a fluke.

Both need to improve greatly on their Vista support, but from the looks of it ATi's software doesn't have a good edge on Nvidia's for having Microsoft's supposed support.

 

[tuteja1986]

Originally posted by: josh6079

Originally posted by: ronnn

Originally posted by: josh6079
Nvidia's Vista drivers have been reviewed to be better than ATi's current ones--although still needing much attention.

Link?

Legit Reviews.com

Don't get me wrong, both need some big improvements, but for ATi supposedly having some nice relations with Microsoft's Vista, their drivers seem to be lacking too much.

The first time they tried the most recent ATi Vista drivers (8.29.100.0) the computer crashed in less than a minute, the monitor said it was out of range regardless of it being at its rated specs, and while trying to enter into safe-mode they received the blue screen of death multiple times, and those were on their most recent and up-to-date Vista drivers.

Even when they used their more stable Vista drivers (7.15.11.0) they still were right next to Nvidia's in that they were fairly stable but didn't have any multi-GPU support. And once they were using the most stable Vista drivers that ATi had to offer, they only worked on 3 games and gave no performance increases to any of them. Pretty strange for a company that Microsoft claims to have worked closely with in Vista.

Nvidia's Vista drivers was able to run 4 games while giving an 85% increase to at least one of them:

One shocker was DOOM 3 with 16X AA enabled Vista RC1 was actually 85% faster at 1600x1200 and we triple checked the numbers making sure it wasn't just a fluke.

Both need to improve greatly on their Vista support, but from the looks of it ATi's software doesn't have a good edge on Nvidia's for having Microsoft's supposed support.

http://au.gamespot.com/features/6154735/index.html?q=Windows%20vista
from gamespot : "We started testing with the GeForce 7900 GTX but quickly switched over to the Radeon X1900 XT after all the crashing games revealed that Nvidia's Vista drivers weren't quite mature enough for live testing. Note that this isn't indicative of Nvidia's final Vista performance levels"

 

[ronnn]

Both those links are old reviews with old versions of vista and drivers. My understanding is with newest drivers, ATI wins in d3d and nvidia does better in ogl. But I can't find the review I read, so anyways as I suspected Josh dislikes ati drivers.

 

[Zenoth]

ATi's situation often make me think about what happened to Sega. They couldn't manage to do it on the hardware market, so they moved to software, however despite the fact that Nintendo started it all and I do respect them, Sega was always my favorite at heart for their games.

I currently prefer ATi, and even if the GPU's will be branded "AMD" or have any AMD sticker on them I will still call them ATi cards.

Personally, and honestly, I do respect nVidia, but I haven't tried them since a long time (my last nVidia card was GF4 Ti4600). What I have seen from ATi since three generations is a pleasure to behold, and an honor to experience.

 

[josh6079]

Originally posted by: Nelsieus

Originally posted by: Josh6079
I also tend to think that ATi already has some decent experience with making some DX10 compliant hardware and while R600 will arrive after G80, the amount of games existing between now and the supposed R600 launch aren't going to be DX10. I think I've seen a thread discussing how Crysis is going to be Q1 of 2007 anyways so the earliness of the G80 with it's $700 price tag isnt' very enticing if you ask me. Better to wait for the competition, especially if it may be one of the last competitive rounds we have.

Well then you obviously haven't done your research on the next generation. Aside from obviously offering DX10 support, G80 and R600 will offer increased DX9 support and performance, as well. So if this is un-needed in your opinion, then I'm not sure what games you're referring to (checkers?) 0_o

True, DX9 performance gains look very promising and I am very excited about the new feature sets. The above comment of mine that you quoted was just my particular opinion, that's all. Frames aren't a problem for me in all except one game at the moment and I'm waiting for it to get patched right. I'm more excited about the newer graphics than I am the higher frames, that's all. If you disagree that's fine. I don't know if it deserved the hostility you gave it.

Also, I believe the MSRP for the Geforce 8800GTX is set between $599-$649. They will also be launching a less expensive GPU at the same time, the Geforce 8800GTS at an MSRP set to $449-$499. I suppose if supply is tight, we may see gouging...

That's why I'm inclined to wait until the possible gouging is over, lower prices, and R600. I'm planning on getting either an 8800GTX SLI or wait and see what R600 does. I'm constantly tossing back and forth the idea of one or the other and it's driving me crazy. I remember someone's thread linking the first of some 8800GTX's on sale and it was at $700. I don't know if that is the actual MSRP, but wouldn't be surprised to see it hang around there at first, which will be a big turn off (despite how well it can render a woman)

 

[josh6079]

Originally posted by: ronnn
Both those links are old reviews with old versions of vista and drivers. My understanding is with newest drivers, ATI wins in d3d and nvidia does better in ogl. But I can't find the review I read, so anyways...

Some sites should do some reviews then. You asked for a link and I gave you one only for you to say that it was old but a newer review can't be found...

...as I suspected Josh dislikes ati drivers.

Suspected? I've openly said that I think Nvidia's drivers are more complete and solid, I would hope there would be at least a suspicion...

I'm not alone in my distaste for them either. CrossFire users have just recently been getting attention in ATi's driver department while SLI is always one of Nvidia's top priorities.

 

[Paratus]

I think you folks are missing a huge benefit that AMD is getting from ATI.

GPGPU.....

When a GPU can calc Folding at home 40X FASTER than a cpu who wouldn't want that integrated into a CPU.

posted via Palm Life Drive

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
You can deny it all you like apoppin & josh. Fact is the head of the DX team left m$ for ATi before DX9 launched. Its also a fact that nvidia & microsoft worked together to produce DX9.0c, which corrected a lot of the intial DX9's shortcomings.

i'm sorry but you have presented a genuine crackpot tinfoil conspiracy theory ---

the very ridiculous kind that you decry when someone else posts it

IF it were true, there would be someone besides yourself that discovered it.

I don't think many knew even at the time. It was very hushed up. Of course, thats precisely the way ATi and M$ would like it.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
You can deny it all you like apoppin & josh. Fact is the head of the DX team left m$ for ATi before DX9 launched. Its also a fact that nvidia & microsoft worked together to produce DX9.0c, which corrected a lot of the intial DX9's shortcomings.

i'm sorry but you have presented a genuine crackpot tinfoil conspiracy theory ---

the very ridiculous kind that you decry when someone else posts it

IF it were true, there would be someone besides yourself that discovered it.

I don't think many knew even at the time. It was very hushed up. Of course, thats precisely the way ATi and M$ would like it.

i tried everyting to get you to back that up

how about

please

there is NOTHING turning up in search . . . no topics on forums even . . . SURELY you can provide some kind of a link

something to support your conspiracy theory

Surely you would demand proof - in no uncertain terms - if the situation were reversed - from anybody suggesting something so insidious as this "insider crap" being done by nvidia


again . . . please . . . some shred of evidence


give me something other than to think you are just making it up to disrupt the thread

i wanna believe

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
You can deny it all you like apoppin & josh. Fact is the head of the DX team left m$ for ATi before DX9 launched. Its also a fact that nvidia & microsoft worked together to produce DX9.0c, which corrected a lot of the intial DX9's shortcomings.

i'm sorry but you have presented a genuine crackpot tinfoil conspiracy theory ---

the very ridiculous kind that you decry when someone else posts it

IF it were true, there would be someone besides yourself that discovered it.

I don't think many knew even at the time. It was very hushed up. Of course, thats precisely the way ATi and M$ would like it.

Then again, maybe Nvidia knew they fvkd up and went and got the one guy they knew could fix their problem?

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
You can deny it all you like apoppin & josh. Fact is the head of the DX team left m$ for ATi before DX9 launched. Its also a fact that nvidia & microsoft worked together to produce DX9.0c, which corrected a lot of the intial DX9's shortcomings.

i'm sorry but you have presented a genuine crackpot tinfoil conspiracy theory ---

the very ridiculous kind that you decry when someone else posts it

IF it were true, there would be someone besides yourself that discovered it.

I don't think many knew even at the time. It was very hushed up. Of course, thats precisely the way ATi and M$ would like it.

i believe YOU made it up

verrrry "hush hush"

 

[Gstanfor]

Believe me apoppin I would LOVE to be able to produce a working link to the article for you (you have NO IDEA how much I'd love that...). When I get time I might check through my archives to see if I saved a local copy, but I don't think I did, (there was a lot from that era I should have preserved).

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
Believe me apoppin I would LOVE to be able to produce a working link to the article for you (you have NO IDEA how much I'd love that...). When I get time I might check through my archives to see if I saved a local copy, but I don't think I did, (there was a lot from that era I should have preserved).

i'd really love it too

well . . . letsee . . . FOUR separate occasions you broke into this thread to insist it is true . . . without any documentation whatsoever

i DID get a little annoyed because i posted links ... and facts . . . and attempted to back up my opinion with "something" . . .

and i got attacked over-and-over with unsupported speculation by a 'mob'

and quoted out of context again and again ... just to make me look extra unreasonable

is it "fair"?

nope, it's video



from now on, i am gonna copy Josh's irritatingly "calm" method of posting .... you guys will really hate it
:laugh:

 

[Centurin]

Incase this wasn't already posted.

New AMD May Withdraw from Discrete GPU Business

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: Centurin
Incase this wasn't already posted.

New AMD May Withdraw from Discrete GPU Business

Yeah, I have been saying that. Apoppin did not believe me. Now there is a link (which I am sure he will discredit). Actually there have been several sites saying this, the R600 will be the last one.

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: Centurin
Incase this wasn't already posted.

New AMD May Withdraw from Discrete GPU Business

Yeah, I have been saying that. Apoppin did not believe me. Now there is a link (which I am sure he will discredit). Actually there have been several sites saying this, the R600 will be the last one.

This is no proof, it's the musings of a single analyst.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: Centurin
Incase this wasn't already posted.

New AMD May Withdraw from Discrete GPU Business

Yeah, I have been saying that. Apoppin did not believe me. Now there is a link (which I am sure he will discredit). Actually there have been several sites saying this, the R600 will be the last one.

i did not say i did not believe you . . . i asked for "support" . . . links . . .
... what you just gave us!
:thumbsup:

thank-you

and it's pretty unfair to say i will simply discount it out of hand.

he does make some points . . . but i believe they are based on insufficient info he had to work with . . . i.e.

The analyst believes that the market share for ATI Radeon discrete graphics processing units (GPUs) will be limited to the market share of AMD?s own microprocessors, thus, will not be really large.

Mr. Freedman believes that ATI will be difficult to push its multi-GPU technology into the marketplace, which will reduce the company?s potential for success.

on these TWO things is based his analysis:
1) ATi will only produce video cards for AMD
2) X-fire will fail

if either of them proves wrong - and i believe he is wrong on both counts - his analysis is faulty.

look at the opposite POV presented in the same link:

At this point discrete GPU business accounts for 50% of ATI Technologies? quarter revenue of about $650 million, whereas core-logic sets account for about 26% of the company?s quarterly sales. ATI Technologies uses graphics cores and other technologies it develops for discrete GPUs in its chipsets and other products. By ceasing to develop leading edge graphics processors, the company may find itself significantly behind rivals and lose its advantages it may have over market leader Intel Corp.

that is the REASON AMD bought ATi . . . to kick ass on Intel.
:Q

AMD will never allow itself to fall behind . . . therefore discrete gfx will be a focal point for them and will Drive their technology ... at least until their platform is complete . . . years from now.

and his last analysis is really questionable:

ExtremeTech web-site further quotes Mr. Freedman as saying that AMD can sign technology licenses for its GPU technology, creating a revenue stream. Finally, ditching the standalone business would lower AMD?s revenue by ?only? $1.4 billion while increasing its gross margins to over 50%.

that's a real stretch with the margins.

 

[Wreckage]

Well right or wrong, it could be a few years before we see exactly what AMD is going to do with ATI. I expect that for the first year we really won't see much of a change.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
Well right or wrong, it could be a few years before we see exactly what AMD is going to do with ATI. I expect that for the first year we really won't see much of a change.

i haven't agreed with you in a long time . . .
:Q

guess it's 'time'
:thumbsup:



and i guess we all want the same thing - more-or-less ...
competition ...

creating cutting edge technology at a reasonable price

let's hope there is more beyond r600.

 

[Vinnybcfc]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
Yeah, I have been saying that. Apoppin did not believe me. Now there is a link (which I am sure he will discredit). Actually there have been several sites saying this, the R600 will be the last one.

No im in the mood for discrediting it actually im getting sick of seeing this crap floating around claiming 'ATI are dead oh noes ZOMG!!!!!!'

Here are some quotes that this analyst has said (http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20061029130237.html:

Originally posted by: X-bit Labs Article
However, Mr. Freedman believes that ATI will be difficult to push its multi-GPU technology into the marketplace, which will reduce the company?s potential for success.

Wow I never knew Crossfire was the be all and end all maybe he should see how many enthusiasts have it; a Valve survey would be a good start

Originally posted by: X-bit Labs Article
?This will be a marketing issue more so than a technical issue. However, it is unlikely that Intel or Nvidia will support CrossFire in their chipsets, thereby reducing the total available market (for ATI). While the performance/enthusiast PC market has been a small but lucrative niche, recent acquisitions of boutique PC suppliers by Dell (Alienware) and HP (VoodooPC) will bring this technology to a wider audience. Neither these large OEMs nor the smaller boutiques want to be bound to a single GPU supplier,? Mr. Freedman claims.

Right two points here:

1) My ATI card works without Crossfire amazingly how is this going to limit ATI market share for single cards - not one bit

2) "Neither these large OEMs nor the smaller boutiques want to be bound to a single GPU supplier"

So there must be a demand hence a market if companies do not want to be bound to single GPU supplier

Originally posted by: X-bit Labs Article
The analyst believes that the market share for ATI Radeon discrete graphics processing units (GPUs) will be limited to the market share of AMD?s own microprocessors, thus, will not be really large.

This comment is just plain stupid; I can put my ATI X850 or X1900 or R600 single card into a Intel board

So answer me this: How will the Radeons be limited by AMD's market share?

Basically he is trying to say you have to have a AMD board to run a ATI card

 

[Creig]

I guess Mr. Freedman is under the impression that there are Nvidia PCI-E slots and ATi PCI-E slots.

And god help you if you want to use a Matrox PCI-E card. Almost NO motherboard company offers a Matrox PCI-E slot these days.