The Real Lessons of the AMD's launch

[KeithTalent]

Originally posted by: josh6079

So what is the "must-have" feature that AMD could have touted or at least teased us with?

The only thing that I can see at this point is how much of an impact their drivers could do.

ATi can change quite a bit of their AA through drivers, nVidia can't at this point. When a driver update can change something as significant as AA it makes you wonder what exactly will be done with their Catalyst series.

However, that's just for IQ. If there's an iceberg of performance in the 2900XT and all we're seeing is the tip, the bulk of it will only come with time. But that's a big "if".

The hardware is here on both fronts now. The real fight is going to be with drivers.

I agree. I am also wondering if the new technology AMD incorporated into it's cards may be a difference maker down the road (for those who have not seen it, look at this trailer for a possible example Team Fortress 2, though it may be a case of too little, too late if Nvidia just incorporates something similar in a short while.

Anyway, at the very least I still think things will take a few weeks to sort themselves out.

KT


PS: Way too many jerks in this thread 🙁

 

[v8envy]

Originally posted by: Creig

No, I just don't see some dark horse company coming out of nowhere with a miracle high-performance video card anymore.

Let me present a hypothetical darkhorse competitor to a sole graphics card maker: Intel.

They completely own the ultra low end/integrated graphics chip market. The only thing that stops them from venturing into midrange and high end is they probably don't feel the profit margins are high enough with NV and ATI competing for the already lower sales volume. Lower volume demands higher profit margins to be worth bothering with.

Now, let's say AMD implodes and goes back to the niche of providing high value low performance CPUs, and the graphics arm just withers away to nothing. Basically, they become another VIA. Suddenly NV has the midrange and highend markets all to themselves, and can try for a 30-40% profit margin on their goods.

At that point Intel might be interested in growing their company ---> thataway.

Still think competition is impossible?

BTW, millions/billions of $ of R&D is not a dealbreaker to many conglomerates. It's just the ROI isn't there with current market conditions.

 

[Nightmare225]

Originally posted by: KeithTalent

Originally posted by: josh6079

So what is the "must-have" feature that AMD could have touted or at least teased us with?

The only thing that I can see at this point is how much of an impact their drivers could do.

ATi can change quite a bit of their AA through drivers, nVidia can't at this point. When a driver update can change something as significant as AA it makes you wonder what exactly will be done with their Catalyst series.

However, that's just for IQ. If there's an iceberg of performance in the 2900XT and all we're seeing is the tip, the bulk of it will only come with time. But that's a big "if".

The hardware is here on both fronts now. The real fight is going to be with drivers.

I agree. I am also wondering if the new technology AMD incorporated into it's cards may be a difference maker down the road (for those who have not seen it, look at this trailer for a possible example Tema Fortress 2, though it may be a case of too little, too late if Nvidia just incorporates something similar in a short while.

Anyway, at the very least I still think things will take a few weeks to sort themselves out.

KT


PS: Way too many jerks in this thread 🙁

It's not like those facial animations are impossible on NVIDIA hardware. ATI just paid of Valve to promote their games with the ATI brand, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[KeithTalent]

Originally posted by: Nightmare225

Originally posted by: KeithTalent

Originally posted by: josh6079

So what is the "must-have" feature that AMD could have touted or at least teased us with?

The only thing that I can see at this point is how much of an impact their drivers could do.

ATi can change quite a bit of their AA through drivers, nVidia can't at this point. When a driver update can change something as significant as AA it makes you wonder what exactly will be done with their Catalyst series.

However, that's just for IQ. If there's an iceberg of performance in the 2900XT and all we're seeing is the tip, the bulk of it will only come with time. But that's a big "if".

The hardware is here on both fronts now. The real fight is going to be with drivers.

I agree. I am also wondering if the new technology AMD incorporated into it's cards may be a difference maker down the road (for those who have not seen it, look at this trailer for a possible example Team Fortress 2, though it may be a case of too little, too late if Nvidia just incorporates something similar in a short while.

Anyway, at the very least I still think things will take a few weeks to sort themselves out.

KT


PS: Way too many jerks in this thread 🙁

It's not like those facial animations are impossible on NVIDIA hardware. ATI just paid of Valve to promote their games with the ATI brand, nothing more, nothing less.

I know it is not impossible with Nvidia hardware, I suppose what I should have said is it is apparently easier and more efficient to do so with the ATI tech which may be an advantage.

KT

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: AnotherGuy

Originally posted by: apoppin

they need a whole new marketing team who isn't afraid to take a chance with something completely off the wall and out of the box

for what? so they can sell a bad product to the ignorant that has money? Wow thats genius.

If their product sux wtf is their marketing gotta do with it... R600 does suck comparing to a GTS let alone higher products... I just dont see why u gotta attack the marketing team at this point... Its like the marketers engineered the card...
They made a bad choice in the design with this product.... it happens with every company... lets hope they dont screw up again... thats all

first of all ... it is not a *bad* product
--NO ONE - except for the nvidia viral marketeers and fanboys - say that ... not even HardOCP

the AMD marketing team *failed* to generate a buzz about a very decent product ... or even a very "fair" product ... their JOB is to even sell *crap* for their company

for example, nvidia did much better with the DustBuster then AMD is doing ... their fans were "able" to defend it ... unlike now when public opinion is against the HD2900xt

someone has packaged and "sold" Paris Hilton, for an example from earlier

**it's called "promotion"**
--it's what made sugar, colored water and flavor into an empire for CocaCola ... it took an EVIL product and made tobacco megaBusiness ...

So what is the "must-have" feature that AMD could have touted or at least teased us with?

the *amazing" thing is that is is already there ... present ...

No one ... no one is thinking outside the box 😛

if they did this promotion right, AMD's HD2900xt would become a household name, Barcelona's launch would be assured ... and we'd see the results of this on All 3 major networks news ... with a couple of weeks ... world news shortly thereafter

nvidia would have no answer whatsoever except to "copy" it 😛

they need to thimk
:light:

btw, i have learned to ignore trash, debris, fluff ... garbage ... and particularly wreckage

 

[v8envy]

Oh come ON. No site surviving on ad dollars would call the flagship product of a major player a complete pile of crap. Not a one. The best they can do is point out pros and cons, and hope the readers come to the correct conclusion.

I think you're also mistaken re: AMD's marketing. The high end video cards are more of a vertical than horizontal market. They influence the broader market, yes. Much like winning races for F1 cards influences purchases of Civics. The buzz isn't the issue here -- the HD2900 is simply an also-ran. Moreover, it's not a practical card for many people who don't want their PC to turn into an EZ Bake oven.

As of this writing the HD2900 is up another $10 on the egg, to a price of $446 shipped. That's about a 30% price premium over a 640 meg 8800GTS, and a 30% discount to a 768 meg 8800GTX.

Does that price movement (up 10% from release/MSRP price over 2 days) suggest a failed product to anyone else?

 

[apoppin]

do you think it is a success ... did you like this launch, v8envy?

no one is "making fun" of HD2900xt ... not like the reviewers did with the "DustBuster" ...
it was a JOKE and still nvidia successfully promoted it

and IF the FD2900xt "were" crap, they'd say so ... AMD has lost so much prestige ... and intel and nvidia are happy to provide ad dollars to replace cash-strapped AMD's crappy ads

 

[v8envy]

No, I do agree this launch was not the best I've seen by a long shot. It could have done better. I think Hector (or whomever convinced him it's a good idea to blame delays on a 'unified product launch strategy' being wanted by partners) won't be so desirous of a similar launch for Barcelona.

And you're proving my point. The dustbuster was a joke among those in the know, and NVidia *still* sold a metric assload of FX series cards. I was at a local computer shop picking up a heatsink with the salescritter racking up a $150 parts & labor upgrade of some poor schmuck from a ti4800 to an FX5200. The technophiles are not what drives this market. Many purchases are based off of previous personal experience. It's still possible for AMD to pull off a marketing coup, so long as they don't keep stumbling.

And if you worked in radio you know there's no such thing as replaced ad dollars. More ad dollars is better than fewer ad dollars. You sell as much ad space as you can to as many people as you can to cover the lean times, it's not like there's some way to ask competitors to pick up the slack. And it's not just ATI who advertises with you -- it's their partners, and retailers. If they think your content will cost them sales they simply won't run ads during that content.

 

[josh6079]

Well, the bundles seem like they're trying to make up for something:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161091

A nice mouse to go with the card. I think it'd be cool if it came with a hot pad or something.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: v8envy
Much like winning races for F1 cards influences purchases of Civics.

Not really on topic but if that were the case Civics would be some of the worst sellers cause how many races have Honda won in the last ~5 years?? I can only think of Button winning in Hungary in recent memory. Only time Honda was winning in F1 was in the late 80s and early 90s I think.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: apoppin
time for the tired old but true cliche:

those who do not learn from lessons of the Past are doomed to repeat them

i wish our AMD viral marketers would forward this thread to their company

i want AMD to learn from this disaster
--for that is the purpose of this thread

but i am not "giving" them any ideas - or a marketing plan - to turn around the crap perception they created --even though i am certain i know "how" 😛

Are you in between jobs? Seems like you're looking for one. Well, if so, don't get your hopes up. AMD won't hire anyone with any sort of marketing sense.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: v8envy
No, I do agree this launch was not the best I've seen by a long shot. It could have done better. I think Hector (or whomever convinced him it's a good idea to blame delays on a 'unified product launch strategy' being wanted by partners) won't be so desirous of a similar launch for Barcelona.

And you're proving my point. The dustbuster was a joke among those in the know, and NVidia *still* sold a metric assload of FX series cards. I was at a local computer shop picking up a heatsink with the salescritter racking up a $150 parts & labor upgrade of some poor schmuck from a ti4800 to an FX5200. The technophiles are not what drives this market. Many purchases are based off of previous personal experience. It's still possible for AMD to pull off a marketing coup, so long as they don't keep stumbling.

And if you worked in radio you know there's no such thing as replaced ad dollars. More ad dollars is better than fewer ad dollars. You sell as much ad space as you can to as many people as you can to cover the lean times, it's not like there's some way to ask competitors to pick up the slack. And it's not just ATI who advertises with you -- it's their partners, and retailers. If they think your content will cost them sales they simply won't run ads during that content.

world of difference in radio ... they own the ad space ... the websites also own ad space ... and amd doesn't have too much of it any more "reserved" to themselves ... not even advertising much on the websites that liked their HD2900xt 😛

As your radio station gets more successful, you get RID of the cheaper paying advertisiers and *replace* them with more expensive ads ... and actually there is "limited space" for ads ... or there would be NO music or talk ... 24hour a day advertisement - and then no one would listen ... plus the FCC tells you how many total hours of ad time you can run a day ... it's a "balance"
Radio stations also need to *self promote* ... that's why they do all that crazy stuff that gets the word out and generates excitement for your "mega hits" station


so ... as long as you ... and AMD are *satisfied* with the status quo .... and the way HDxt is being "accepted" ...

well, then - great ... they have an "assured" future ahead of them
[just not the one they are imagining] 😉

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: apoppin
time for the tired old but true cliche:

those who do not learn from lessons of the Past are doomed to repeat them

i wish our AMD viral marketers would forward this thread to their company

i want AMD to learn from this disaster
--for that is the purpose of this thread

but i am not "giving" them any ideas - or a marketing plan - to turn around the crap perception they created --even though i am certain i know "how" 😛

Are you in between jobs? Seems like you're looking for one. Well, if so, don't get your hopes up. AMD won't hire anyone with any sort of marketing sense.

no ... looking for a job in a company with no future ? 😛

you are 100% correct ... they are blaming the "entire mess" on ATi and firing THAT marketing department ...

OK ... they are 1/2 right ... next is the *bold* move to fire the REST of their marketing and PR ... not the 'grunts' ... the management gotta go

they haven't had a NEW idea .... or a decent promotion since ... since ...

... let me think ...

ever

it is AMAZING that they made it this far hobbling on that borked crutch

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: lavaheadache

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: lavaheadache

Originally posted by: Wreckage
🙂 😉 🙁 😱 :disgust: 😀 :| :Q 😛 😎 :frown: 😕 :heart: :brokenheart: :beer: :music: :wine: :lips: :camera: :gift:

:evil: :clock: :light: :sun: :moon: :roll: :laugh: :shocked: :thumbsup: :thumbsdown:

Lately, everytime I read a post from you I lose more and more respect for you and your childish antics

That's ok, it was only meant for people with a sense of humor and who understand why I would reply to Apop with all smilies.

I do have a sense of humor but your bashing the way he "talks"...... I for one like his "emtional" way of posting. I get a real sense of his attitude towards things due to his emoticons.


I bet you make fun of people who limp too.... huh

The emoticons are fine. But sometimes they convey a bit of schizophrenia. 😀 🙁 :|

 

[v8envy]

Ok, my analogy was a bit flawed. But, consider that Honda spins their *competing* in F1 as an advantage of buying their product. The implication is 1. they win 2. competitors don't even try. To the average riceboy this is good enough -- they've got the racing heritage under their hood.

So, while having the #1 product is a Good Thing, and as mentioned every hardware vendor would rather have one than not. Siimply being in the top 3, competing and consistency is good enough for marketing work with.

That's why we have the 8800 ultra. The HD2900 has to battle for the #3 or #4 spot. That's why we got the 320 meg 8800 earlier to do the same to the X1950. NV wants AMD's products out of the top 3, and out of the mind's eye of enthusiasts who may influence many buying decisions.

What interests me now is how stable the HD2900s will be in the rigs of people who buy them. According to a poll post very few enthusiasts from this community are lining up to buy those bad boys. Which leaves me guessing -- will the mainstream buyers have enough juice to run these cards stably, or is AMD in for a double whammy of not being top dog AND "I got it and it's unstable."

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

The emoticons are fine. But sometimes they convey a bit of schizophrenia. 😀 🙁 :|

it's a way to survive Video 😉
--and i am "cutting back"

and V8envy ... i am suggesting that AMD really - first recognize their launch is a flop - then really think outside the PR box in the most off-the-wall creative way possible to promote HD2900xt and get people to LINE up for them

to generate *excitement* which is completely missing now

i know how ... guaranteed ... but mine is just one of many ways to do this right
--they can always pick whatever is proven to work also ... just with a really smart - no, brilliant - PR team in charge


[1 emoticon]

 

[v8envy]

apop, you have at least succeeded in getting me curious re: what you'd do. The obvious solutions of celebrity endorsements and young people dancing don't seem as applicable when selling a high end product to a semi-vertical market.

Me, I'd just take every opportunity to put the brand in front of the customer. Fessing up to failure? HELL NO. Never. But I'd definitely start mentioning the coming midrange and low end parts every chance I got, leak some benchmarks, leak some pricing info, get some respected developers to start blogging about how nifty the unused features of the card are, etc etc.

Get people away from dwelling about the current card turning machines into kilns and caring about the future. Distract them with some silly monkey. And meanwhile, do what it takes to differentiate the product -- invent some 'killer must have feature' that only this product has. How? No idea, I'm not being paid to do this either. =)

 

[5150Joker]

Cool I'm glad the X2900 sucks, that means my 8800 GTX will last a bit longer as top dawg (I dont count the 8800 ultra).

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: v8envy
apop, you have at least succeeded in getting me curious re: what you'd do. The obvious solutions of celebrity endorsements and young people dancing don't seem as applicable when selling a high end product to a semi-vertical market.

Me, I'd just take every opportunity to put the brand in front of the customer. Fessing up to failure? HELL NO. Never. But I'd definitely start mentioning the coming midrange and low end parts every chance I got, leak some benchmarks, leak some pricing info, get some respected developers to start blogging about how nifty the unused features of the card are, etc etc.

Get people away from dwelling about the current card turning machines into kilns and caring about the future. Distract them with some silly monkey. And meanwhile, do what it takes to differentiate the product -- invent some 'killer must have feature' that only this product has. How? No idea, I'm not being paid to do this either. =)

no no OUTSIDE the box entirely and 'off' the wall

something no tech company has ever done
[other companies have ... but no tech co]

no singing nor dancing ... the CEO does that already ...😛
--and NO expensive commercials or ANY ads ...

just their website, new releases and the forums ...

a "real promotion ... from the New AMD"

--the mainstream news would pick up on it ... and best of all it is a 'set up' for Barcelona ---EVEN if AMD delays it further

 

[GEOrifle]

Some comments from another forum:

"again, ATI said XT only competition with GTS, just wait for XTX to battle GTX. But for right now, you still can overclocking your XT to complete GTX."

 

[nullpointerus]

Originally posted by: GEOrifle
Some comments from another forum:

"again, ATI said XT only competition with GTS, just wait for XTX to battle GTX. But for right now, you still can overclocking your XT to complete GTX."

Why not spend less on a GTS and overclock to near-GTX performance?

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: nullpointerus

Originally posted by: GEOrifle
Some comments from another forum:

"again, ATI said XT only competition with GTS, just wait for XTX to battle GTX. But for right now, you still can overclocking your XT to complete GTX."

Why not spend less on a GTS and overclock to near-GTX performance?

excuse me guys .. this thread is about "The Real Lessons of the AMD's launch"
-- about the LAUNCH mechanics a way to 'recover' from it and to "learn" so as to not repeat the 'negative buzz' when Barcelona releases ...

the same "bad taste" is still here ... reinforced by HD290xt's launch ... and the "main course" is next 😛

it isn't a pissing match between current HW ... there are plenty of other threads for that

 

[apoppin]

*UPDATE* - Sapphire has a Brand-New "promotion"

what is it? well, it's called

***** GO Vertical with Vista! ************

what do you get?

maybe a single HD 2900xt ?
:Q

a brand new xfire system?
:shocked:

nope ... their brain dead PR decide that YOU would LOVE

What can I win?

A comprehensive performance package to push Vista - Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate Edition, AMD Athlon X2 5000+, Cooled by ZEROtherm BFT90. [/b]
great ... a dead end system with no mention of the HD-XT

Sapphire is No1 AMD Graphics Partner

oh yeah .. you can win ...

http://www.sapphiretech.com/us/vista/

 

[swtethan]

you get 1950pros in xfire

 

[apoppin]

you get screwed

they are stupid ...

what is their NEW product ?

Hd2900xt

maybe they are ASHAMED of it --
it "implys" they don't trust it enough to not burn up 😛
:thumbsdown: