The Real Lessons of the AMD's launch

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: lavaheadache

Originally posted by: Wreckage
🙂 😉 🙁 😱 :disgust: 😀 :| :Q 😛 😎 :frown: 😕 :heart: :brokenheart: :beer: :music: :wine: :lips: :camera: :gift:

:evil: :clock: :light: :sun: :moon: :roll: :laugh: :shocked: :thumbsup: :thumbsdown:

Lately, everytime I read a post from you I lose more and more respect for you and your childish antics

That's ok, it was only meant for people with a sense of humor and who understand why I would reply to Apop with all smilies.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: lavaheadache

Originally posted by: Wreckage
🙂 😉 🙁 😱 :disgust: 😀 :| :Q 😛 😎 :frown: 😕 :heart: :brokenheart: :beer: :music: :wine: :lips: :camera: :gift:

:evil: :clock: :light: :sun: :moon: :roll: :laugh: :shocked: :thumbsup: :thumbsdown:

Lately, everytime I read a post from you I lose more and more respect for you and your childish antics

That's ok, it was only meant for people with a sense of humor and who understand why I would reply to Apop with all smilies.

because you have no sense ?
😕

 

[golem]

Originally posted by: Creig

Originally posted by: apoppin
i should care ... but what have they ever done for me ?

nothing

Nothing except give us an excellent alternative to the Pentium lineup of Intel, drive down CPU prices for years and fuel development of new innovations for our computing pleasure. They (or at least their acquisition) also produced that X1950Pro I see in your sig.

So AMD didn't launch a GTX killer. It's not what most of us were hoping for and I daresay it's not what AMD had hoped for either. But the HD 2900 XT and its brethren will STILL whelp drive down prices of the majority of Nvidia's product line.

The only two it won't affect are the GTX and the Ultra. And you see what Nvidia has done with the prices of THOSE two in the absence of any competition? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. The GTX is still nearly as expensive today as when it first launched. And the Ultra? Well, the less said about ITS pricing the better.

So without AMD, we would never see ANY price reductions from Nvidia.




Ever.




That alone shows you what AMD has "done for you lately".

What you said in your first paragraph has some truth, but AMD didn't do this out of the goodness of their hearts, but to make a buck. On the CPU side, before the Core2 came out, AMD more or less acted like Intel by keeping the prices of the 939 chips artificially high and charging a premium for X2 chips. They have a right to to charge what the market will bear for their products, but to me at least, this makes me think that I shouldn't owe any loyalty to AMD, and just purchase the best product out there.

And your line about, "without AMD out there, we would never see price reductions from Nvidia ever", get real. Would price reductions slow down? Probably, but NEVER? If that happened, some other company would see the fat margins Nvidia was making with very little effort, come in and take marketshare in no time.

If you blindly support a company no matter what crap they come out with, then all they will come out with is more crap. What incentive do they have to innovate or improve if you don't tell them with your wallet that they have to? If people didn't flock to Core2, then AMD would have had no incentive to make Barcelona as good as it's rumoured to be. If people didn't did give AMD flack for the mistakes they made with the HD2900, then they would have no incentive to fix it in the inevitable refresh.

 

[apoppin]

time for the tired old but true cliche:

those who do not learn from lessons of the Past are doomed to repeat them

i wish our AMD viral marketers would forward this thread to their company

i want AMD to learn from this disaster
--for that is the purpose of this thread

but i am not "giving" them any ideas - or a marketing plan - to turn around the crap perception they created --even though i am certain i know "how" 😛

 

[josh6079]

*why* is HD2900xt a flop ?

I don't know about being a complete "flop", but the fact that the X1950XTX can best it in even one test doesn't help it's status in my book.

The 8800 GTS has never lost to a 7900 GTX in an a benchmark.

However, is there a review that's been able to get the 24x AA mode working? The ones I've seen either haven't been able to or just plain didn't use anything greater than 4x AA.

 

[KeithTalent]

I'm still a dopting a 'wait and see' attitude. I will wait and see if performance increases greatly with a new driver release, I will also wait and see if prices of these and/or the 8800 cards go down. Then, and only then, will I know what is going to be the best purchase for me.

Does this mean if I buy a 2900Xt I can't slap an "Apoppin approved" sticker on it? 🙁 ... 😛

KT

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: josh6079

*why* is HD2900xt a flop ?

I don't know about being a complete "flop", but the fact that the X1950XTX can best it in even one test doesn't help it's status in my book.

The 8800 GTS has never lost to a 7900 GTX in an a benchmark.

However, is there a review that's been able to get the 24x AA mode working? The ones I've seen either haven't been able to or just plain didn't use anything greater than 4x AA.

i didn't say that right

*why* is HD2900xt Perceived to be a flop ?

in this thread, i want to divorce the product - it is decent - from the launch, which was awful

and analyze what went wrong ... the *why* there is no positive 'buzz'

Does this mean if I buy a 2900Xt I can't slap an "Apoppin approved" sticker on it?

sure ... i'll send you a couple ... i am buying it .. i think it is decent

--in CONTRAST to the launch

 

[lavaheadache]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: lavaheadache

Originally posted by: Wreckage
🙂 😉 🙁 😱 :disgust: 😀 :| :Q 😛 😎 :frown: 😕 :heart: :brokenheart: :beer: :music: :wine: :lips: :camera: :gift:

:evil: :clock: :light: :sun: :moon: :roll: :laugh: :shocked: :thumbsup: :thumbsdown:

Lately, everytime I read a post from you I lose more and more respect for you and your childish antics

That's ok, it was only meant for people with a sense of humor and who understand why I would reply to Apop with all smilies.

I do have a sense of humor but your bashing the way he "talks"...... I for one like his "emtional" way of posting. I get a real sense of his attitude towards things due to his emoticons.


I bet you make fun of people who limp too.... huh

 

[Zstream]

For the love of God just shutup!

Oh and how did you hear about Barcelona being delayed?

Hardware Geeks

 

[Zstream]

Originally posted by: lavaheadache

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: lavaheadache

Originally posted by: Wreckage
🙂 😉 🙁 😱 :disgust: 😀 :| :Q 😛 😎 :frown: 😕 :heart: :brokenheart: :beer: :music: :wine: :lips: :camera: :gift:

:evil: :clock: :light: :sun: :moon: :roll: :laugh: :shocked: :thumbsup: :thumbsdown:

Lately, everytime I read a post from you I lose more and more respect for you and your childish antics

That's ok, it was only meant for people with a sense of humor and who understand why I would reply to Apop with all smilies.

I do have a sense of humor but your bashing the way he "talks"...... I for one like his "emtional" way of posting. I get a real sense of his attitude towards things due to his emoticons.


I bet you make fun of people who limp too.... huh

No most people do not but his style of posting is really overdone and quite frankly makes him look retarded.

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: golem
What you said in your first paragraph has some truth, but AMD didn't do this out of the goodness of their hearts, but to make a buck. On the CPU side, before the Core2 came out, AMD more or less acted like Intel by keeping the prices of the 939 chips artificially high and charging a premium for X2 chips. They have a right to to charge what the market will bear for their products, but to me at least, this makes me think that I shouldn't owe any loyalty to AMD, and just purchase the best product out there.

If I recall, during the P4 days the 939 offered not only greater performance but did it at a lower cost. AMD also helped us get through the Intel "RAMBUS is the way of the future" days when they did everything they could to force that uber expensive memory on us.

Originally posted by: golem
And your line about, "without AMD out there, we would never see price reductions from Nvidia ever", get real. Would price reductions slow down? Probably, but NEVER? If that happened, some other company would see the fat margins Nvidia was making with very little effort, come in and take marketshare in no time.

First of all, look at the price of the 8800GTX. When it was first released you could get it for what? $620? Here we are now six months later and the street price is still $550. That just seems like a slower drop in price for a newly released card than we've seen in the past when there was direct competition.

Secondly, I don't see how ANY company can simply just decide one day to jump into the high-end graphics business and expect to compete with AMD or Nvidia. These cards have gotten so complex that they literally take YEARS of design work before they're ready for production. The days of companies like PowerVR jumping into the fray with their Kyro are long gone. Now it takes many millions of dollars and untold thousands of hours of design work to get a card that is anywhere near the top performancewise. Just look at AMD/ATI. They've been doing this for YEARS and still managed to produce a card that couldn't take the performance crown from Nvidia.

No, I just don't see some dark horse company coming out of nowhere with a miracle high-performance video card anymore.

Originally posted by: golem
If you blindly support a company no matter what crap they come out with, then all they will come out with is more crap. What incentive do they have to innovate or improve if you don't tell them with your wallet that they have to? If people didn't flock to Core2, then AMD would have had no incentive to make Barcelona as good as it's rumoured to be. If people didn't did give AMD flack for the mistakes they made with the HD2900, then they would have no incentive to fix it in the inevitable refresh.

Ah, but I've never advocated to ANYONE to "blindly support a company no matter what". If you want the absolute fastest video card available, you buy an Nvidia 8800GTX or 8800 Ultra. That's all.

But if you're looking a rung down the performance ladder, we now have AMD and Nvidia competing against each other and giving us a choice of features and pricing. Which is as it should be.

If somebody is looking at both an 8800GTS and an HD2900XT and, in the end, decides the 8800GTS is the better choice for them, then great! There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. All I'm saying is don't dismiss the HD2900XT out of hand simply because it isn't faster than the 8800GTX. That is no way for anyone to make an "informed" purchasing decision.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Zstream

Originally posted by: lavaheadache

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: lavaheadache

Originally posted by: Wreckage
🙂 😉 🙁 😱 :disgust: 😀 :| :Q 😛 😎 :frown: 😕 :heart: :brokenheart: :beer: :music: :wine: :lips: :camera: :gift:

:evil: :clock: :light: :sun: :moon: :roll: :laugh: :shocked: :thumbsup: :thumbsdown:

Lately, everytime I read a post from you I lose more and more respect for you and your childish antics

That's ok, it was only meant for people with a sense of humor and who understand why I would reply to Apop with all smilies.

I do have a sense of humor but your bashing the way he "talks"...... I for one like his "emtional" way of posting. I get a real sense of his attitude towards things due to his emoticons.


I bet you make fun of people who limp too.... huh

No most people do not but his style of posting is really overdone and quite frankly makes him look retarded.

the difference between you and me is the lack of substance in your posts that are quite frankly what make you look retarded

 

[Zstream]

May I ask what substance you place in your post? I have never seen a post by you that informed the end user.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Zstream
May I ask what substance you place in your post? I have never seen a post by you that informed the end user.

and yet yet you read them and you are now posting more drivel
--in my thread 😛

 

[Zstream]

No I read the title and that is all. I can not even stand to read your drama queen post. I guess I will repeat myself. What have you done in the past month to inform the end user?

 

[Killrose]

How do you create buzz for a flop? I guess you offer games, built in sound card and some cables and lower the MSRP into the correct zone. The only thing that will bring this thing out of the ashes besides a total re-spin and successful move into 65nm would be some better performance from drivers, that is if there are any improvements left.

There have been several cards from both camps that were released with mediochre drivers that later saw great gains. This thing could be a GTS beater yet, or maybe see parity on a closer scale. GTX is just too far ahead though.

Maybe instead of games they should offer PSU coupons :laugh:

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Killrose
How do you create buzz for a flop? I guess you offer games, built in sound card and some cables and lower the MSRP into the correct zone. The only thing that will bring this thing out of the ashes besides a total re-spin and successful move into 65nm would be some better performance from drivers, that is if there are any improvements left.

There have been several cards from both camps that were released with mediochre drivers that later saw great gains. This thing could be a GTS beater yet, or maybe see parity on a closer scale. GTX is just too far ahead though.

Maybe instead of games they should offer PSU coupons :laugh:

i told you ... i worked with brilliant people in Radio
[radio IS "theater of the mind", btw]

we sold "turds" to people and they were overjoyed to just have them ...
they waited - for hours completely 'excited' - to do stupid things for crap 😉

it is the "presentation" ... the *excitement* ... the "gotta have it" feeling
-which the marketer strokes and stimulates

it is very primitive ... primal ... and it works

AMD doesn't have 'it' ... they pushed all the "wrong buttons" ... for months

they need a whole new marketing team who isn't afraid to take a chance with something completely off the wall and out of the box

 

[AnotherGuy]

Originally posted by: apoppin

they need a whole new marketing team who isn't afraid to take a chance with something completely off the wall and out of the box

for what? so they can sell a bad product to the ignorant that has money? Wow thats genius.

If their product sux wtf is their marketing gotta do with it... R600 does suck comparing to a GTS let alone higher products... I just dont see why u gotta attack the marketing team at this point... Its like the marketers engineered the card...
They made a bad choice in the design with this product.... it happens with every company... lets hope they dont screw up again... thats all

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Zstream

No most people do not but his style of posting is really overdone and quite frankly makes him look retarded.

the difference between you and me is the lack of substance in your posts that are quite frankly what make you look retarded

26,000 posts of emptiness. This thread alone is pure post whoring. Sometimes you just answer yourself. It's like you are talking to yourself in an online forum. Just create a thread in OT and post as fast as you can and then we won't have to wade through your numerous and yet somehow vacant posts.

 

[nullpointerus]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Zstream

No most people do not but his style of posting is really overdone and quite frankly makes him look retarded.

the difference between you and me is the lack of substance in your posts that are quite frankly what make you look retarded

26,000 posts of emptiness. This thread alone is pure post whoring. Sometimes you just answer yourself. It's like you are talking to yourself in an online forum. Just create a thread in OT and post as fast as you can and then we won't have to wade through your numerous and yet somehow vacant posts.

Y'know, when someone compared Internet arguments to the special olympics, somehow I don't think it was intended to be taken literally.

:roll:

Back on topic:

I tend to agree with AnotherGuy although I would have put it differently. Selling crap is unethical; doing it through marketing appealing to human nature is even worse. That said, I feel AMD could have represented the HD-2900XT better. I'm just not sure "how." The product is slow, misfeatured, guzzles power, acts as a space heater, and produces embarassing benchmark results with current drivers. IQ is at best on par with G80. So what is the "must-have" feature that AMD could have touted or at least teased us with?

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: lavaheadache
I do have a sense of humor but your bashing the way he "talks"...... I for one like his "emtional" way of posting. I get a real sense of his attitude towards things due to his emoticons.


I bet you make fun of people who limp too.... huh

Personally, I have never liked it, but I attempt to deal with it. I will admit that I've literally stopped reading his posts halfway through, because I just can't stand how they're broken up like someone jumping from thought to thought. Cohesion is cool in coding and it's cool in posts. 😛

Originally posted by: josh6079
The 8800 GTS has never lost to a 7900 GTX in an a benchmark.

Well, I'm no ATi fan, but that's not exactly a clear cut statement. That can refer to the 7900GTX being a bad card overall (relatively) and that's why the 8800GTS never loses to it. Then you could refer that the 1950XTX being faster than the 7900GTX makes it a strong contender for the HD2900XT because it's simply quite fast for its generation.

In other words, the 8800GTS being better than the 7900GTX doesn't necessarily speak words for the 8800GTS, it may refer to the power of the 7900GTX.

Originally posted by: apoppin
sure ... i'll send you a couple ... i am buying it .. i think it is decent

--in CONTRAST to the launch

I don't see why you're still interested in buying it after you've seen just how lackluster it is. You can just buy a low-end G80 (note, 8800GTS 320, the 8600 and lower are the G84 and G86) for cheaper and get just as much performance. It just doesn't make sense... Johnny Cochran should've used the R600 defense on South Park, not the Wookie defense 😛.

 

[swtethan]

Originally posted by: nullpointerus

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Zstream

No most people do not but his style of posting is really overdone and quite frankly makes him look retarded.

the difference between you and me is the lack of substance in your posts that are quite frankly what make you look retarded

26,000 posts of emptiness. This thread alone is pure post whoring. Sometimes you just answer yourself. It's like you are talking to yourself in an online forum. Just create a thread in OT and post as fast as you can and then we won't have to wade through your numerous and yet somehow vacant posts.

Y'know, when someone compared Internet arguments to the special olympics, somehow I don't think it was intended to be taken literally.

:roll:

Back on topic:

I tend to agree with AnotherGuy although I would have put it differently. Selling crap is unethical; doing it through marketing appealing to human nature is even worse. That said, I feel AMD could have represented the HD-2900XT better. I'm just not sure "how." The product is slow, misfeatured, guzzles power, acts as a space heater, and produces embarassing benchmark results with current drivers. IQ is at best on par with G80. So what is the "must-have" feature that AMD could have touted or at least teased us with?

HDMI! ZOMG!!!

 

[josh6079]

So what is the "must-have" feature that AMD could have touted or at least teased us with?

The only thing that I can see at this point is how much of an impact their drivers could do.

ATi can change quite a bit of their AA through drivers, nVidia can't at this point. When a driver update can change something as significant as AA it makes you wonder what exactly will be done with their Catalyst series.

However, that's just for IQ. If there's an iceberg of performance in the 2900XT and all we're seeing is the tip, the bulk of it will only come with time. But that's a big "if".

The hardware is here on both fronts now. The real fight is going to be with drivers.

 

[josh6079]

Well, I'm no ATi fan, but that's not exactly a clear cut statement. That can refer to the 7900GTX being a bad card overall (relatively) and that's why the 8800GTS never loses to it. Then you could refer that the 1950XTX being faster than the 7900GTX makes it a strong contender for the HD2900XT because it's simply quite fast for its generation.

In other words, the 8800GTS being better than the 7900GTX doesn't necessarily speak words for the 8800GTS, it may refer to the power of the 7900GTX.

True, and as I wrote that I was thinking what you just said as well. The X1950XTX is one hell of a card, still able to give an 8800 GTS a fight under certain settings and that's with a GPU core that's almost a year older.

However, if ATi/AMD had a card as good as the X1950XTX, it would have been logical to try and make sure they were making steady progression all across the board within their own product base.

If the 8800 GTS was for some reason losing against the 7900 GTX in some benches, it wouldn't have near the success or demand. NVidia's cards all show a steady upwards progression as you browse through their SKU's (Until the GTX ---> Ultra though. That's just a pathetic boost for an outrageous cost). ATi on the other hand has some progression, but then some overlapping between their previous high-end and their newest high-end. Again, that's not ideal in my book.

Whether it be because of the 1950's power or the 2900's lack of power, who knows. It's probably a combination of both at this point. Either way, it doesn't help influence a potential buyer.

 

[rise]

Originally posted by: Aikouka

Originally posted by: lavaheadache
I do have a sense of humor but your bashing the way he "talks"...... I for one like his "emtional" way of posting. I get a real sense of his attitude towards things due to his emoticons.


I bet you make fun of people who limp too.... huh

Personally, I have never liked it, but I attempt to deal with it. I will admit that I've literally stopped reading his posts halfway through, because I just can't stand how they're broken up like someone jumping from thought to thought.

yeah, or if i'm in a bad mood i just skip his posts all together. reading them feels like getting bitched at by my ex with all the over-emphatic BS.