The real hero of the 507th.

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Shad0hawK

Banned
May 26, 2003
1,456
0
0
Originally posted by: Mardeth
Hah, this is nothing. Finnish soldiers kept an army 25 times bigger out for a year until the germans came to our help. Once, when russians were attacking with 4000 men to a hill with 34 finnish soldiers, the fins killed 400 of them before the russian fled and at that point 4 of the fins were alive. Killing 7 iraqians in a bunker or something, seems easy to me compared to this. By the end of the war for every finnish soldier that died, died 10 russians, literally. Even a russian general said: "We conquered just enough land to bury our dead".

I also read a biography of a guy called "White Death", that guy killed 500 russians with his sniper rifle (consider the technoogy of the 40's) and another 500 with his machine gun until his chin was shot out... Died a few years back. This is not a lie...

Yes, this happenened a long time ago but still wanted to share it, to get you back to earth... Youre not the only one doing heroic things you know...

his name was something like suamo haaya, i have the same weapon although a bit later, he shot a mosin nagant m38 with NO SCOPE getting confirmed kills at 500 plus yards. the weapon i have is a mosin nagant m44, abut the only real difference is the stock, both fire the 7.69x54r round which is considerably more potent than the 7.62x39 which the SKS and AK47 fire.

 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,079
15
81
Yup he was the man see 60 minutes Sunday before the crappy movie two different stories not even close...
 

Mardeth

Platinum Member
Jul 24, 2002
2,609
0
0
Originally posted by: Shad0hawK
Originally posted by: Mardeth
Hah, this is nothing. Finnish soldiers kept an army 25 times bigger out for a year until the germans came to our help. Once, when russians were attacking with 4000 men to a hill with 34 finnish soldiers, the fins killed 400 of them before the russian fled and at that point 4 of the fins were alive. Killing 7 iraqians in a bunker or something, seems easy to me compared to this. By the end of the war for every finnish soldier that died, died 10 russians, literally. Even a russian general said: "We conquered just enough land to bury our dead".

I also read a biography of a guy called "White Death", that guy killed 500 russians with his sniper rifle (consider the technoogy of the 40's) and another 500 with his machine gun until his chin was shot out... Died a few years back. This is not a lie...

Yes, this happenened a long time ago but still wanted to share it, to get you back to earth... Youre not the only one doing heroic things you know...

his name was something like suamo haaya, i have the same weapon although a bit later, he shot a mosin nagant m38 with NO SCOPE getting confirmed kills at 500 plus yards. the weapon i have is a mosin nagant m44, abut the only real difference is the stock, both fire the 7.69x54r round which is considerably more potent than the 7.62x39 which the SKS and AK47 fire.
Yep, if your ever seen enemy at the gates, kind of same just killed alot more :). Yes, hero is a man who saves people but with killing your enemys you save people, so its kind of the same. And fins and russians equipped about the same just that russians had thousands of tanks, planes and canons, when Finaland had practically none, althought it is true that russians werent really ready for winter most of them lived in winters which were at least as severe as in Finland.
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
All of you, come off it. This guy is no hero. The US is in Iraq killing people all over.

If you call the people being killed by the US as "militants", they are fighting against the US for their country. The US is in a sovereign nation illegally. Yes, get it right, the War was and is illegal. There are no weapons of mass destruction and no connection to Al-Qaeda. Stop with the crap about "liberation". The Iraqi people did not send out a letter to the Mr. Bush to liberate them from Saddam Hussein.

Read:
Link

This is what you call liberation???

Why dont all you war supporters go to Iraq and help the Iraqis liberate? If you can so conviniently justify the war with the "liberation" theme, you could also put your foot where your mouth is and contribute sizeable donations.

Donations

There you go all you "liberators".

kage69
emmm, no, actually, it's not. If you had bothered to read any of it you must have seen the commentary from other soldiers who were there. You seem to ignore the many explanations behind the Lynch incident, albeit there are details still left out in the open. Regardless, we can all feel perfectly secure in having pride in the US Armed Forces. If you choose not to, fine, but go be a smacktard troll elsewhere. With a handle like sultan, I can guess why you might be uptight over a 9:1 kill ratio in favor of the Americans.
So what is the exact explanation about the Lynch incident? Are there other explanations about this schmuck too? 9:1 ratio? Ha! I think its more like 13000:250 odd. Thats your pride in the US Armed Forces? What exactly DID they achieve other than ending lives of 13000 human beings? Are you safer now that there have no WMD found? Wait, wasnt that what Iraq was saying all along?

If you read the article (and I've heard reports of this from other places), the Army did intercept radio transmissions of a blonde "woman" fighting heroically but now they think it was a blonde male soldier whose body they later found with bullet wounds and knife wounds.

You guys have got to remember that it was really frantic and hectic during the war and the Army was getting all sorts of confusing information. Remember 911 and all those reports of follow up hi-jackers? Turned out to be false. Was the media lying? Or was it just a confusing situation and know one knew what was going on?

Also, just because Lynch doesn't remember being raped, it doesn't mean it didn't happened or that the Army is lying. She could be blocking it out mentally because it was so tramatic or because she was unconcious when it happened. I've heard of lots of cases where the woman doesn't remember being raped because she was drugged. I guess if the woman doesn't remember it, it didn't happen, huh?

Our medics suspected she was rape because of physical evidence of trauma in a certain area of her body. The Iraqi doctors found no evidence of rape -- but they themselves said that they were not looking for any evidence of that sort. Our doctors did look for evidence of rape (because that is something we fear would happen to our female soldiers
So it wasnt Ms Lynch who was the hero, there was someone else. Well, someone just HAS to be hero going into Iraq and fighting this illegal war.

Oh right, six months later comes the story that medical reports say Jessica Lynch was raped. For how many months did she have "selective amnesia" again? Pretty convinient WHEN she recalled almost all of it. I'm sure thats what her Iraqi "captors" were doing in the midst of a war. I guess thats what Americans are stuck at, Lynch being raped. No one posted any single message thanking the Iraqi people for not killing her, for treating her for her wounds, for keeping her from physical harm.

Get a grip of reality.
 

StormRider

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2000
8,324
2
0
Originally posted by: Sultan
All of you, come off it. This guy is no hero. The US is in Iraq killing people all over.

If you call the people being killed by the US as "militants", they are fighting against the US for their country. The US is in a sovereign nation illegally. Yes, get it right, the War was and is illegal. There are no weapons of mass destruction and no connection to Al-Qaeda. Stop with the crap about "liberation". The Iraqi people did not send out a letter to the Mr. Bush to liberate them from Saddam Hussein.

Read:
Link

This is what you call liberation???

Why dont all you war supporters go to Iraq and help the Iraqis liberate? If you can so conviniently justify the war with the "liberation" theme, you could also put your foot where your mouth is and contribute sizeable donations.

Donations

There you go all you "liberators".

kage69
emmm, no, actually, it's not. If you had bothered to read any of it you must have seen the commentary from other soldiers who were there. You seem to ignore the many explanations behind the Lynch incident, albeit there are details still left out in the open. Regardless, we can all feel perfectly secure in having pride in the US Armed Forces. If you choose not to, fine, but go be a smacktard troll elsewhere. With a handle like sultan, I can guess why you might be uptight over a 9:1 kill ratio in favor of the Americans.
So what is the exact explanation about the Lynch incident? Are there other explanations about this schmuck too? 9:1 ratio? Ha! I think its more like 13000:250 odd. Thats your pride in the US Armed Forces? What exactly DID they achieve other than ending lives of 13000 human beings? Are you safer now that there have no WMD found? Wait, wasnt that what Iraq was saying all along?

If you read the article (and I've heard reports of this from other places), the Army did intercept radio transmissions of a blonde "woman" fighting heroically but now they think it was a blonde male soldier whose body they later found with bullet wounds and knife wounds.

You guys have got to remember that it was really frantic and hectic during the war and the Army was getting all sorts of confusing information. Remember 911 and all those reports of follow up hi-jackers? Turned out to be false. Was the media lying? Or was it just a confusing situation and know one knew what was going on?

Also, just because Lynch doesn't remember being raped, it doesn't mean it didn't happened or that the Army is lying. She could be blocking it out mentally because it was so tramatic or because she was unconcious when it happened. I've heard of lots of cases where the woman doesn't remember being raped because she was drugged. I guess if the woman doesn't remember it, it didn't happen, huh?

Our medics suspected she was rape because of physical evidence of trauma in a certain area of her body. The Iraqi doctors found no evidence of rape -- but they themselves said that they were not looking for any evidence of that sort. Our doctors did look for evidence of rape (because that is something we fear would happen to our female soldiers
So it wasnt Ms Lynch who was the hero, there was someone else. Well, someone just HAS to be hero going into Iraq and fighting this illegal war.

Oh right, six months later comes the story that medical reports say Jessica Lynch was raped. For how many months did she have "selective amnesia" again? Pretty convinient WHEN she recalled almost all of it. I'm sure thats what her Iraqi "captors" were doing in the midst of a war. I guess thats what Americans are stuck at, Lynch being raped. No one posted any single message thanking the Iraqi people for not killing her, for treating her for her wounds, for keeping her from physical harm.

Get a grip of reality.
Ummm, I think a lot of people thanked them -- especially that Iraqi lawyer who supposedly notified us about Lynch being held at the hospital. He got a hero's welcome at Lynch's hometown. I personally think the doctors who treated her were kind and a tribute to humans everywhere.

As for the "selective amnesia", why is this so hard to believe? If a rape did occur, it probably occurred right after her jeep crashed -- I wouldn't be surprised that she doesn't remember any of it. Most people don't remember much after losing consciousness. I'm not saying that she was raped -- all I'm trying to say is why are so many people so quick to believe it's a lie?

Finally, as for your comment about the "The Iraqi people did not send out a letter to the Mr. Bush to liberate them from Saddam Hussein." -- you are technically incorrect. Some Iraqis (I think some of them are on the Iraqi Council) did ask Bush to liberate them from Saddam Hussein. I personally feel that they might have feed us some bad intelligence overstating (and perhaps lying) about Hussein's weapons of mass destruction.

I personally was initially against this war and felt it was a mistake (whose root cause is that Bush Sr. did not finnish the job). I was worried that all it will do is to contribute more hatred towards us and so far this seems to be the case. But we're in there now and we have to do our best to make it right and help the Iraqi people. Hopefully, things will turn out right in the end and the Iraqi people can forgive us and both countries will be friends. That's my hope.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
23,607
25,359
136
Neither are heros, according to my definition. Anyone with half a brain in their head would have understood the point I was trying to make. Quit your flag waving and think next time.
Typical P&N bullsh!t tactics: generalize, then divert. Nice. You're the water head here if you really expect to be taken seriously with an incredibly obtuse, self-defeating argument. Did you even make it past 5th grade? If you're to come into a forum and spew your opinionated crap you ought to have read the article to completeion first - you obviously didn't. You define a hero as someone who saves lives, well ol Miller here saved quite a few. Then you say the guy who shot odwn the chinook is a hero - by ending the lives of a dozen or more US soldiers on their way to R&R. Tell me asshat, how many lives did this al- Qaeda/Feydayeen guy save?
You are a worthless troll - calling me a flag waver does nothing to cover up you idiocy, especially as how I'm fond of comparing Bush to a retarded ape. Yeah, some flag waver I am.
Go off and play little one, I think I hear BOOOOOOOOOB calling your name.



Yep, if your ever seen enemy at the gates, kind of same just killed alot more . Yes, hero is a man who saves people but with killing your enemys you save people, so its kind of the same. And fins and russians equipped about the same just that russians had thousands of tanks, planes and canons, when Finaland had practically none, althought it is true that russians werent really ready for winter most of them lived in winters which were at least as severe as in Finland
The Fins and the Russians were not equipped with the same. The Fins had better cold weather gear, were practically all accomplished skiiers, and had rifles and vehicles better suited to winter warfare than the Russians. The Russians, despite being native from a similar climate, were hampered by, again a horrible winter, poor logistical support, low moral, and to top it off commanders who believed in the tactics of attrition (not a great idea against an enemy who is prepared and no stranger to guerilla tactics).

The Vietnam era jamming issues were mainly due to ammo loaded with "dirty" powder and a chamber that was not chrome lined. The ammo issue was rectified and we took a clue from the Soviet's and chromed the chamber
Actually, we didn't take a clue from the Soviets on this, the chromed barrel idea was a direct lesson from our own boys in WWII, and was included in the original design. The exclusion of the chrome barrel and higher-quality smokeless powder were cost-saving cuts introduced before the escalation of the Vietnam conflict. I believe I remember hearing one analyst attributing that to McNamara economics, but I'm not sure.


If you call the people being killed by the US as "militants", they are fighting against the US for their country. The US is in a sovereign nation illegally. Yes, get it right, the War was and is illegal. There are no weapons of mass destruction and no connection to Al-Qaeda. Stop with the crap about "liberation". The Iraqi people did not send out a letter to the Mr. Bush to liberate them from Saddam Hussein
Yes, we know you hate the US for going in and kicking Saddam out, we get it. The "militants" are former Baathists and foreign terrorists there to partake in the party. If you really think they are fighting for Iraq persay, you're falling for their own propaganda and are too gullible for the topic to give an objective opinion, sorry. If I had a cushy life under Sadaam, I might be pretty mad at it being ruined too. If I were a radical Muslim terrorist, I would want to show up to gt in a few licks at the Great Satan. If I were a true Iraqi concerned with the wellbeing of my country, I would have done something while it was being run (edit: sh!tcanned) by a sadistic madman. If a coallition showed up and booted him out, I'd be giving all assistance to the enemy of my enemy,in order to quickly facilitate his departure.
Since you need to put it in infants terms, it's true that "no letter was sent to Mr. Bush to liberate them." So by this flawed and infantile 'logic,' the Iraqis must have truely adored Sadaam & Co. for their penchant of brutal governing. Then how do you explain all the Iraqi exiles, all the groups set up in other countries with the aim of overthrowing that tyrant? You can't, because you're just another generalizing, US hating ideologue who will b!tch about anything the US does.

So what is the exact explanation about the Lynch incident? Are there other explanations about this schmuck too? 9:1 ratio? Ha! I think its more like 13000:250 odd. Thats your pride in the US Armed Forces? What exactly DID they achieve other than ending lives of 13000 human beings? Are you safer now that there have no WMD found? Wait, wasnt that what Iraq was saying all along?
Gee, more subject changing, what a shock! We started off discussing the ambush (pertaining to my 9:1 comment) and now all of a sudden you change to the subject to the ratio of casualties of the war in general. What's your point? You assume a lot of things, like that somehow I'm not upset by no WMD being found. Guess what retard??? I AM! But that has nothing to do with the topic at hand! I'm glad you've realized that you didn't read the article in full, but next time just have the balls to say it instead of bringing up weak attempts at an argument to cover it up or draw attention away from it.

So it wasnt Ms Lynch who was the hero, there was someone else. Well, someone just HAS to be hero going into Iraq and fighting this illegal war.
Yep, it's obvious you have an axe to grind with the Bushies, that much is clear.

Oh right, six months later comes the story that medical reports say Jessica Lynch was raped. For how many months did she have "selective amnesia" again? Pretty convinient WHEN she recalled almost all of it. I'm sure thats what her Iraqi "captors" were doing in the midst of a war. I guess thats what Americans are stuck at, Lynch being raped. No one posted any single message thanking the Iraqi people for not killing her, for treating her for her wounds, for keeping her from physical harm
I guess we'll all just have to assume you not only have a medical degree but that you examined Jessica Lynch to arrive at these conclusions. A petite lass like that gets pulverized in a Humvee flip, and here you are berating her for not spitting out the answers you want to hear quickly enough. *laughs*
You seem to be hung up on this rape thing: are you aware that's what happens to pretty female POWs in wartime? Why do you think they have POW training in all branches of the military? How do explain the trauma she received to her ass? Is it so hard for you to accept she could have been raped while unconscious? Oh I see now, you're one of these "if she doesn't remember it, it didn't happen" types. You too, are pathetic.

The heros where the man on the other side of that berm.
Really? How many lives did they save? Please, do tell. Or was it beacause they fought for the "legitimate" government of Iraq? Just another troll.....
 

VioletAura

Banned
Aug 28, 2003
302
0
0
Originally posted by: kage69
Neither are heros, according to my definition. Anyone with half a brain in their head would have understood the point I was trying to make. Quit your flag waving and think next time.
Typical P&N bullsh!t tactics: generalize, then divert. Nice. You're the water head here if you really expect to be taken seriously with an incredibly obtuse, self-defeating argument. Did you even make it past 5th grade? If you're to come into a forum and spew your opinionated crap you ought to have read the article to completeion first - you obviously didn't. You define a hero as someone who saves lives, well ol Miller here saved quite a few. Then you say the guy who shot odwn the chinook is a hero - by ending the lives of a dozen or more US soldiers on their way to R&R. Tell me asshat, how many lives did this al- Qaeda/Feydayeen guy save?
You are a worthless troll - calling me a flag waver does nothing to cover up you idiocy, especially as how I'm fond of comparing Bush to a retarded ape. Yeah, some flag waver I am.
Go off and play little one, I think I hear BOOOOOOOOOB calling your name.
I read it. More people would have survived the attack if he had surrendered in the first place instead acting like an ass. That is why hes nothing. He prolonged a fight the unit couldn't win then went about annoying the captors, PUTTING THE LIVES OF EVERYONE AT RISK. They are damn lucky to get out it alive. Maybe you should have used your pea brain instead of just accepting him as a hero because he killed a few people. It wasn't as if the Iraqis would have lobbed more motars their way if he put up a white flag and if he had any idea that the troops would be killed anyway he would have fought to the death and died a true and honorable death, but he didn't, he chose to surrender.
Since you fail to understand my sarcastic comparison, clarify it for your simple mind... this guy is not a hero and the guy with the rocket launcher wasn't a hero. They are nothing but killers, heros save lives, put no one at risk but their own and don't kill, but then maybe my standards are too high people like you.
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
kage69

Yes, we know you hate the US for going in and kicking Saddam out, we get it. The "militants" are former Baathists and foreign terrorists there to partake in the party. If you really think they are fighting for Iraq persay, you're falling for their own propaganda and are too gullible for the topic to give an objective opinion, sorry. If I had a cushy life under Sadaam, I might be pretty mad at it being ruined too. If I were a radical Muslim terrorist, I would want to show up to gt in a few licks at the Great Satan. If I were a true Iraqi concerned with the wellbeing of my country, I would have done something while it was being run (edit: sh!tcanned) by a sadistic madman. If a coallition showed up and booted him out, I'd be giving all assistance to the enemy of my enemy,in order to quickly facilitate his departure.
Since you need to put it in infants terms, it's true that "no letter was sent to Mr. Bush to liberate them." So by this flawed and infantile 'logic,' the Iraqis must have truely adored Sadaam & Co. for their penchant of brutal governing. Then how do you explain all the Iraqi exiles, all the groups set up in other countries with the aim of overthrowing that tyrant? You can't, because you're just another generalizing, US hating ideologue who will b!tch about anything the US does.
I'm sure you're using the same intelligence to confirm these "militants" are former Baathists and foreign terrorists as the US Government did to quote existence of WMD and links between Iraq and Al-Qaeda. Very enlightening. Just a few days ago, the US Commander in Iraq himself quoted he didnt think there was a significant presence of foreigners fighting against the US. I think you're really insane if you think ANY Iraqi had a life worse than it is now under the US Occupation Forces even under Saddam Hussein. Saddam was no angel, but if you think the US is doing the Iraqi people a favor, you're a total fvcktard. By coalition you mean which countries? Oh right, the Iraqi exile group... you mean people like Chalabi who had criminal cases pending in his country of exile. You're a total joke.

If you are a true American, you would be concerned about the well-being of YOUR country and fellow countrymen who are dying in Iraq in this illegal war. That would be patriotism. To speak the honest truth. Not lipsynch the false foreign policy any administration sets.

Gee, more subject changing, what a shock! We started off discussing the ambush (pertaining to my 9:1 comment) and now all of a sudden you change to the subject to the ratio of casualties of the war in general. What's your point? You assume a lot of things, like that somehow I'm not upset by no WMD being found. Guess what retard??? I AM! But that has nothing to do with the topic at hand! I'm glad you've realized that you didn't read the article in full, but next time just have the balls to say it instead of bringing up weak attempts at an argument to cover it up or draw attention away from it.
By quoting the figure, I merely wished to point whether anyone is really a hero after 13000 deaths. So Mr. Jack@ass, no need to be a confrontational pig, be rational and YOU read.

Yep, it's obvious you have an axe to grind with the Bushies, that much is clear.
I dont care what President Bush does. Its the American people who matter. President Bush's tenure can be a maximum of 8 years. The people's opinons reflects the nation's opinion. If iodine-deficient people like you can get some sense knocked in their underdeveloped brains, that would be a step forward. Being a Bush-basher serves no purpose.

I guess we'll all just have to assume you not only have a medical degree but that you examined Jessica Lynch to arrive at these conclusions. A petite lass like that gets pulverized in a Humvee flip, and here you are berating her for not spitting out the answers you want to hear quickly enough. *laughs*
You seem to be hung up on this rape thing: are you aware that's what happens to pretty female POWs in wartime? Why do you think they have POW training in all branches of the military? How do explain the trauma she received to her ass? Is it so hard for you to accept she could have been raped while unconscious? Oh I see now, you're one of these "if she doesn't remember it, it didn't happen" types. You too, are pathetic.
Yes, she just remembers it 6 months later AFTER she was offered a million bucks for her story. *laughs* I think you need to redo your junior high.
Raped?

I am sure the Iraqi soldiers quickly ran out to Ms. Lynch, stripped her and raped her while the The 1st Battalion, 2nd Marine regiment, known as 1/2 marines, took their time approaching from the south, who incidentally were ordered to speed up to try and rescue any survivors.
Link2

Trauma to her ass = rape. You must definitely be speaking from experience :D
LOSER!
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
23,607
25,359
136
read it. More people would have survived the attack if he had surrendered in the first place instead acting like an ass. That is why hes nothing. He prolonged a fight the unit couldn't win then went about annoying the captors, PUTTING THE LIVES OF EVERYONE AT RISK. They are damn lucky to get out it alive. Maybe you should have used your pea brain instead of just accepting him as a hero because he killed a few people. It wasn't as if the Iraqis would have lobbed more motars their way if he put up a white flag and if he had any idea that the troops would be killed anyway he would have fought to the death and died a true and honorable death, but he didn't, he chose to surrender.
You're nothing - you're letting your distaste for the conflict get in the way of giving credit where credit is due, I can't think of anything more petty or childish. I never considered Lynch a hero, mainly because she never did anything heroic. I also resent the hell out of her being decorated, it's a terrible slap in the face for vets that actually earned their metals. You can hypothesize all you want about what the Iraqis would or wouldn't have done, it doesn't change anything - going on the past history of the Iraqi military and their treatment of prisoners, I think I would have done the same thing in his shoes. I guess you'll just have to hold a personal grudge against him for not knowing they were outnumbered 33 to 200 or so. That and him not being French. Gee, the nerve - you'd think there was a war on or something! Miller displayed leadership and courage under fire, and put himself at risk to save the lives of his comrades. His individual initiative is what leaders want in soldiers - it's what got the job done at Normandy, the Ardennes, Korea, etc. While I do have a problem with how Bush handled quite a lot, I'm not about to be an ass like you and belittle a man with far more balls than you'll ever know over how he conducted himself (quite honorably I might add) while bullets were whizzing about. Sorry BrownAura, you need to find something else to be bitter over. Given the way Washington is handling the majority of this, it shouldn't be hard.



I'm sure you're using the same intelligence to confirm these "militants" are former Baathists and foreign terrorists as the US Government did to quote existence of WMD and links between Iraq and Al-Qaeda. Very enlightening. Just a few days ago, the US Commander in Iraq himself quoted he didnt think there was a significant presence of foreigners fighting against the US. I think you're really insane if you think ANY Iraqi had a life worse than it is now under the US Occupation Forces even under Saddam Hussein. Saddam was no angel, but if you think the US is doing the Iraqi people a favor, you're a total fvcktard. By coalition you mean which countries? Oh right, the Iraqi exile group... you mean people like Chalabi who had criminal cases pending in his country of exile. You're a total joke
S'funny, I'm the one still laughing at your first post, and you're still talking out your ass I see. Has Bremer been allowing his underlings to go around raping Iraqi women? How about torturing people? Gasing people? Denying them due-process under the law? Has the interim government put water and power down to pre-war levels? How exactly are the Iraqi's worse off? I don't think I can take anything you say seriously now. Is sultan BOBDN's new account?
Coalition, yes, as in countires...US, Britain, Poland, Qatar, etc...
Jeebus you don't know a damn thing do you? Chalabi had the charges brought against him by Jordan, but resided in England! You are apparently unaware of the anti-Sadaam groups found in Europe, Iran, and the US.

YOU ARE THE JOKE. GO BACK AND PLAY WITH YOUR LEGOS SON.
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
S'funny, I'm the one still laughing at your first post, and you're still talking out your ass I see. Has Bremer been allowing his underlings to go around raping Iraqi women? How about torturing people? Gasing people? Denying them due-process under the law? Has the interim government put water and power down to pre-war levels? How exactly are the Iraqi's worse off? I don't think I can take anything you say seriously now. Is sultan BOBDN's new account?
Coalition, yes, as in countires...US, Britain, Poland, Qatar, etc...
Jeebus you don't know a damn thing do you? Chalabi had the charges brought against him by Jordan, but resided in England! You are apparently unaware of the anti-Sadaam groups found in Europe, Iran, and the US.

YOU ARE THE JOKE. GO BACK AND PLAY WITH YOUR LEGOS SON.
Link

You call this better off? Saddam was a murderous b@stard. Is the US any better after this civilian casualty, let alone the physical infrastructre damage?

Do you think a small minority of the population comprising of Baathists and "foreign militants" could mount this sort of guerilla warfare against the might of the US forces? If they can, I am sure the sizeable Iraqi population could have fought against Saddam's regime. No one invited the US. All the initial objectives of going to war HAVE been proven to be false. Stop justifying this war. UNDERSTAND that this government LIED to you and all of us.

By last count, ONLY the US, Britain and Australia waged this war. Out of 250+ nations of the world, these three had the "moral" obligation to rid Iraq of Saddam. Ha!

This is Chalabi: Chalabi

Do YOU know anything about him???

You're such a fanny.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
23,607
25,359
136
You call this better off? Saddam was a murderous b@stard. Is the US any better after this civilian casualty, let alone the physical infrastructre damage?
The question begs to be asked, what do you consider a more pressing problem for the average Iraqi? Being kidnapped and tortured by the Mukhaburat, or getting the runs from dirty water? You give no credit to the allies for restoring power and water, to higher levels than were available before the war no less, whilst still mopping up resistance fighters.
From your own link: "Environmental degradation and smoke from oil fires are adding to the health problems of Iraqis, it reports. "
Yeah, that's what I thought, oil fires started by Sadaam. The overall decline in the health of the Iraqi populace seems always to lead to that, according to both Iraqi and Western doctors. He never gave a rats ass about his people, but that's not even an issue, everyone knows that. When the Iraqi military was done with equipment, they'd just junk it outside of a desert town. Hazardous materials were simply poured into holes in the ground, to hell what it does to the surrounding inhabitants. The same article repeatedly covers how insurgents are to blame for exacerbating the problem - so let me get this straight: Sadaam ruins everything, and his insurgents make it worse. The US is to blame for trying to fix it all while combating the same insurgents. Call me whatever lame name you want, but your ridiculous reasoning speaks for itself chum.

Do you think a small minority of the population comprising of Baathists and "foreign militants" could mount this sort of guerilla warfare against the might of the US forces? If they can, I am sure the sizeable Iraqi population could have fought against Saddam's regime. No one invited the US. All the initial objectives of going to war HAVE been proven to be false. Stop justifying this war. UNDERSTAND that this government LIED to you and all of us.
Yes, I do. In guerilla warfare, the smaller you are the more manueverable you are, thus being harder to combat. The sizeable Iraqi population wouldn't rise up as Sadaam and his cronies had the entire place living in fear. You know, fear? The result of watching your wife raped and your children tortured in front of you? Do you by chance recall what happened to the general who suggested Sadaam step down prior to the first war just to get the UN off his back? Are you aware of how many family members Sadaam has had killed? Oh well the French didn't invite us into France, therefore taking it back from the Germans was just simply uncalled for. Iraqi dissidents have been pleading for assistance against Sadaam for decades, just deal with it. I'm not justifying this war, I know full well Bush lied and that's why I'm voting for whomever has a chance of beating him. Why are you trying to change the subject again? No confidence in your previous statements? Admiring Miller's actions in no way justifies this war, no matter how much you wish it would. UNDERSTAND that YOUR goverment worked side by side with ours, and was just as misleading.

By last count, ONLY the US, Britain and Australia waged this war. Out of 250+ nations of the world, these three had the "moral" obligation to rid Iraq of Saddam. Ha!
Wow, now you can't count either! "ONLY" eh? So why were Poland's GROM units tasked with seizing a number of oil wells? Do all the nations who provided logistical, medical, and monetary support not count somehow? Ha! indeed.


Do YOU know anything about him???
Apparently I do, that link mirrors both what I said and what I know of him. Thanks for proving me right! :)

You sir, are an ignorant tit. Thanks for showing everyone.
 

Rogue

Banned
Jan 28, 2000
5,774
0
0
I have a neighbor whose husband beats her all the time, but when confronted, she asks that I not call the police because he will brutalize her more.

Do I call the police and risk her being killed by her husband in anger with the ultimate interest of saving her life?

Or do I let it happen in the hope that she doesn't get killed in the process and I've done nothing?

Therein lies the issue in Iraq, no matter how you want to spin it to suit your agenda. When you can answer either question above, provided you've actually experienced or will experience something of that nature in your lifetime and then you can close your eyes and go to sleep at night without thinking about it at all, then come talk to me.
 

hagbard

Banned
Nov 30, 2000
2,775
0
0
Originally posted by: Lucky
Originally posted by: hagbard
Originally posted by: Gaard
Pfc. Patrick Miller
The heros where the man on the other side of that berm.
Not only is your grammar and spelling incredibly bad, it's clear that you sympathize with terrorists as well. :|
You're right about my spelling and grammar, but you're wrong about who are the terrorist here. You (Americans) are INVADING and occupying another country for which you have no (zero) right to be there. You are the terrorists, not the Iraqis who defend their homeland.
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
I have a neighbor whose husband beats her all the time, but when confronted, she asks that I not call the police because he will brutalize her more.

Do I call the police and risk her being killed by her husband in anger with the ultimate interest of saving her life?

Or do I let it happen in the hope that she doesn't get killed in the process and I've done nothing?

Therein lies the issue in Iraq, no matter how you want to spin it to suit your agenda. When you can answer either question above, provided you've actually experienced or will experience something of that nature in your lifetime and then you can close your eyes and go to sleep at night without thinking about it at all, then come talk to me.
I very much agree.

A solution to Iraq's problem could have been, and could still be letting the legitimate authority to take care of Iraq, which would be the United Nations. Maybe all these war supporters would understand that is the only way the US soldiers in Iraq would stop dying. Please dont put up the argument that the UN wasnt taking any action when they should have. They didnt take the action because it was wrong to have done so without conclusive proof of the US allegations. Now there is no proof. Iraq is no longer a threat to any Western nation. Cede authority to the UN.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Sultan
I have a neighbor whose husband beats her all the time, but when confronted, she asks that I not call the police because he will brutalize her more.

Do I call the police and risk her being killed by her husband in anger with the ultimate interest of saving her life?

Or do I let it happen in the hope that she doesn't get killed in the process and I've done nothing?

Therein lies the issue in Iraq, no matter how you want to spin it to suit your agenda. When you can answer either question above, provided you've actually experienced or will experience something of that nature in your lifetime and then you can close your eyes and go to sleep at night without thinking about it at all, then come talk to me.
I very much agree.

A solution to Iraq's problem could have been, and could still be letting the legitimate authority to take care of Iraq, which would be the United Nations. Maybe all these war supporters would understand that is the only way the US soldiers in Iraq would stop dying. Please dont put up the argument that the UN wasnt taking any action when they should have. They didnt take the action because it was wrong to have done so without conclusive proof of the US allegations. Now there is no proof. Iraq is no longer a threat to any Western nation. Cede authority to the UN.
OK - you need to get some things straight.

*Our soldiers won't "stop dying" if they spraypaint their hat Blue.
*And yes - the UN did NOT follow through with Iraq, but I see why you don't want that discussed;)
*The "US allegations" were not just ours;) The UN made alot of the statements, and there were many different nation's intel agencies that were relied upon.

Have you read ANY of the UN statements on Iraq?
What will handing things over to the UN solve? So France, Germany, and Russia can have their way? Didn't the UN pull out of Baghdad because they couldn't take the heat? What makes you think they'll have the resolve to see the rebuilding and structuring through?

CkG
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
Originally posted by: Mardeth
Hah, this is nothing. Finnish soldiers kept an army 25 times bigger out for a year until the germans came to our help. Once, when russians were attacking with 4000 men to a hill with 34 finnish soldiers, the fins killed 400 of them before the russian fled and at that point 4 of the fins were alive. Killing 7 iraqians in a bunker or something, seems easy to me compared to this. By the end of the war for every finnish soldier that died, died 10 russians, literally. Even a russian general said: "We conquered just enough land to bury our dead".

I also read a biography of a guy called "White Death", that guy killed 500 russians with his sniper rifle (consider the technoogy of the 40's) and another 500 with his machine gun until his chin was shot out... Died a few years back. This is not a lie...

Yes, this happenened a long time ago but still wanted to share it, to get you back to earth... Youre not the only one doing heroic things you know...
Lauri Thoni (Larry Thorne) was another brave and famous Finn who fought in WWII for Finland and in Vietnam as an American.
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
kage69

I know full well Bush lied and that's why I'm voting for whomever has a chance of beating him.
Okay, atleast we have a consensus on this.

Now explain in a non-piggy way why you admire this soldier who was part of the army that invaded a sovereign country based on falls premise? And why the "militants" who shot down the Blackhawks NOT heroes?

The question begs to be asked, what do you consider a more pressing problem for the average Iraqi? Being kidnapped and tortured by the Mukhaburat, or getting the runs from dirty water? You give no credit to the allies for restoring power and water, to higher levels than were available before the war no less, whilst still mopping up resistance fighters.
I meet a ton or Iraqis at the local masjid. Trust me on this (if you wish to), the hyped up media which proclaims all the kidnapping and torturing are HIGHLY exaggerated. I am not saying they arent true; they are VERY MUCH true albeit quite exaggerated. Saddam was a b@stard. I said it before and I will say it again, if you are such a firm believer in the "liberation" theme, you COULD help out with some donations. I have provided the link above. Have it in your heart to do so.

Sadaam ruins everything, and his insurgents make it worse. The US is to blame for trying to fix it all while combating the same insurgents.
Saddam did not ruin the waterworks, electricial systems, immunisation programmes, blah blah blah. 12 years of sanctions did. Saddam was to blame as much as the UN on that. There arent WMD now, there werent any then. The US as occupying powers have the obligation to provide security. If they cannot handle it, they should atleast allow the UN to have some say in these matters (as the article I posted suggests), but this government is too pig-headed about it. And bro, the first line reads: "Medical charity Medact says this year's conflict disrupted immunisation programmes and destroyed water systems, increasing levels of disease". Why are you only blaming Saddam and the "insurgents"? Doesnt the US get any share in this blame?

Wow, now you can't count either! "ONLY" eh? So why were Poland's GROM units tasked with seizing a number of oil wells? Do all the nations who provided logistical, medical, and monetary support not count somehow? Ha! indeed.
Btw, to offer correction, Poland went in after the President declared the hostilites were over. If you recall, the VP of Poland had frankly said they were sending troops to get a piece of the oil pie. Yes, thats exactly what he said. The other nations who provided all that support you mention also stepped in after the US declared hostilites over. Anyways, thats besides the point of this thread, so I apologise for mentioning it here.

UNDERSTAND that YOUR goverment worked side by side with ours, and was just as misleading.
By my government you mean?
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: Sultan
I have a neighbor whose husband beats her all the time, but when confronted, she asks that I not call the police because he will brutalize her more.

Do I call the police and risk her being killed by her husband in anger with the ultimate interest of saving her life?

Or do I let it happen in the hope that she doesn't get killed in the process and I've done nothing?

Therein lies the issue in Iraq, no matter how you want to spin it to suit your agenda. When you can answer either question above, provided you've actually experienced or will experience something of that nature in your lifetime and then you can close your eyes and go to sleep at night without thinking about it at all, then come talk to me.
I very much agree.

A solution to Iraq's problem could have been, and could still be letting the legitimate authority to take care of Iraq, which would be the United Nations. Maybe all these war supporters would understand that is the only way the US soldiers in Iraq would stop dying. Please dont put up the argument that the UN wasnt taking any action when they should have. They didnt take the action because it was wrong to have done so without conclusive proof of the US allegations. Now there is no proof. Iraq is no longer a threat to any Western nation. Cede authority to the UN.
OK - you need to get some things straight.

*Our soldiers won't "stop dying" if they spraypaint their hat Blue.
*And yes - the UN did NOT follow through with Iraq, but I see why you don't want that discussed;)
*The "US allegations" were not just ours;) The UN made alot of the statements, and there were many different nation's intel agencies that were relied upon.

Have you read ANY of the UN statements on Iraq?
What will handing things over to the UN solve? So France, Germany, and Russia can have their way? Didn't the UN pull out of Baghdad because they couldn't take the heat? What makes you think they'll have the resolve to see the rebuilding and structuring through?

CkG
Right Cad. Why have a REAL international coalition to defeat Saddam/rebuild Iraq, when you can have a PRETEND coalition where the U.S. can do whatever it wants and only has to bribe some half-assed countries to throw in their token "support?" That way, the entire world, and especially the Arabs, can see the U.S. as the occupying force that it really is. We can become Israel with our very own Palestinians practically overnight!
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: Sultan
I have a neighbor whose husband beats her all the time, but when confronted, she asks that I not call the police because he will brutalize her more.

Do I call the police and risk her being killed by her husband in anger with the ultimate interest of saving her life?

Or do I let it happen in the hope that she doesn't get killed in the process and I've done nothing?

Therein lies the issue in Iraq, no matter how you want to spin it to suit your agenda. When you can answer either question above, provided you've actually experienced or will experience something of that nature in your lifetime and then you can close your eyes and go to sleep at night without thinking about it at all, then come talk to me.
I very much agree.

A solution to Iraq's problem could have been, and could still be letting the legitimate authority to take care of Iraq, which would be the United Nations. Maybe all these war supporters would understand that is the only way the US soldiers in Iraq would stop dying. Please dont put up the argument that the UN wasnt taking any action when they should have. They didnt take the action because it was wrong to have done so without conclusive proof of the US allegations. Now there is no proof. Iraq is no longer a threat to any Western nation. Cede authority to the UN.
OK - you need to get some things straight.

*Our soldiers won't "stop dying" if they spraypaint their hat Blue.
*And yes - the UN did NOT follow through with Iraq, but I see why you don't want that discussed;)
*The "US allegations" were not just ours;) The UN made alot of the statements, and there were many different nation's intel agencies that were relied upon.

Have you read ANY of the UN statements on Iraq?
What will handing things over to the UN solve? So France, Germany, and Russia can have their way? Didn't the UN pull out of Baghdad because they couldn't take the heat? What makes you think they'll have the resolve to see the rebuilding and structuring through?

CkG
Right Cad. Why have a REAL international coalition to defeat Saddam/rebuild Iraq, when you can have a PRETEND coalition where the U.S. can do whatever it wants and only has to bribe some half-assed countries to throw in their token "support?" That way, the entire world, and especially the Arabs, can see the U.S. as the occupying force that it really is. We can become Israel with our very own Palestinians practically overnight!
Ah yes - the old "real" coalition BS...I suppose without any of those 3 it's "unilateral" too.


CkG
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
0
OK - you need to get some things straight.

*Our soldiers won't "stop dying" if they spraypaint their hat Blue.
*And yes - the UN did NOT follow through with Iraq, but I see why you don't want that discussed
*The "US allegations" were not just ours The UN made alot of the statements, and there were many different nation's intel agencies that were relied upon.

Have you read ANY of the UN statements on Iraq?
What will handing things over to the UN solve? So France, Germany, and Russia can have their way? Didn't the UN pull out of Baghdad because they couldn't take the heat? What makes you think they'll have the resolve to see the rebuilding and structuring through?

CkG
1. Our soldiers DONT need to be there if the UN takes control. India and Pakistan and many other countries have stated that they are willing to send in soldiers under the UN mandate. Our soldiers can stop dying before the number touches 500.
2. I did discuss why the UN did not follow through with Iraq. I said that they didnt follow through because no conclusive evidence was found about the US allegations.
3. The allegations about Aluminium Tubes for Nuclear bomb construction and about the Biological vans was made by the US. The yellow cake imported from a Northern African country was made by the UK, which the US used in the Presidents State of the Union address. These three allegations are what I could come up with at this moment. They were allegations then, and the UN found no proof. If there were allegations from other states, the UN still had no proof. Not then, not now. Thats all I was trying to say.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
23,607
25,359
136
Okay, atleast we have a consensus on this.
Not that it has any bearing on the subject, it never did, I was just trying to stop you from dancing around admiting that your diverting...again. But we're in agreement, yayyyyyy...

meet a ton or Iraqis at the local masjid. Trust me on this (if you wish to), the hyped up media which proclaims all the kidnapping and torturing are HIGHLY exaggerated. I am not saying they arent true; they are VERY MUCH true albeit quite exaggerated. Saddam was a b@stard. I said it before and I will say it again, if you are such a firm believer in the "liberation" theme, you COULD help out with some donations. I have provided the link above. Have it in your heart to do so
Oh a ton eh? So far your info and quotes have been far from factual, so yeah you'll just have to excuse me if I don't trust you. I have Kuwaiti and Saudi friends who have told me things that have made my skin crawl, and that's in addition to the things reported on the various investigative reporting programs I've seen on Sadaam (A&E Biography, for instance) You seem to be under the impression that my opinion only counts somehow if I've made contributions to aid programs - not only is that utter bullsh!t, but you're being a sanctimonious ass in the process. Not that it's any of your damn business, but I've made 3 personal donations to UNICEF towards Iraq and Afghanistan, all within the last 2 years.


Saddam did not ruin the waterworks, electricial systems, immunisation programmes, blah blah blah. 12 years of sanctions did. Saddam was to blame as much as the UN on that. There arent WMD now, there werent any then. The US as occupying powers have the obligation to provide security. If they cannot handle it, they should atleast allow the UN to have some say in these matters (as the article I posted suggests), but this government is too pig-headed about it. And bro, the first line reads: "Medical charity Medact says this year's conflict disrupted immunisation programmes and destroyed water systems, increasing levels of disease". Why are you only blaming Saddam and the "insurgents"? Doesnt the US get any share in this blame?
No, Sadaam is to blame for that. He had the means to provide a better life for his people after the first war, but decided if the UN wasn't going to let him have his toys he'd make it hell for the Iraqi populace in order to incite blame on his enemies. Like all Arab despots, he needed a scapegoat. We had to pressure him for years to accept the Food For Oil program, christ even the French were in the end with us on that!
The Bush Administration IS pigheaded though, about a great many things I'm sorry to say.
Yeah, I can tell it's only the first line of an article that interests you, your selective consideration speaks volumes about your agenda. War disrupting water systems and immunization programs, go figure! Sadaam is widely believed to be orchestrating resistance, unplug your ears. The US does deserve some blame in this, but I'm not going to bash the US for combating the very people responsible for continuing to make the Iraqi people live in fear and discomfort. You need to re-assess your priorities, as well as ponder the concept of "cause and affect." Just a suggestion.


Btw, to offer correction, Poland went in after the President declared the hostilites were over. If you recall, the VP of Poland had frankly said they were sending troops to get a piece of the oil pie. Yes, thats exactly what he said. The other nations who provided all that support you mention also stepped in after the US declared hostilites over. Anyways, thats besides the point of this thread, so I apologise for mentioning it here.
No correction has been offered, only a blatant falsehood. Poland's elite GROM units were tasked with securing a number of Iraqi oil wells in the OPENING HOURS of the invasion, as everyone feared a repeat of Sadaam's last little bonfire strategy. As I recall, Warsaw got pissed at Washington for disclosing this as well, saying something to the effect of "GROM doesn't need or want publicity." Anyway, paramilitary troops are still troops, so you're wrong.

By my government you mean?
My apologies, I've never heard a non-Brit use the word 'fanny' before (it did make me laugh though). Are you Irish? Perhaps just an affected American? I assumed, my bad.
 

VioletAura

Banned
Aug 28, 2003
302
0
0
You're nothing - you're letting your distaste for the conflict get in the way of giving credit where credit is due, I can't think of anything more petty or childish. I never considered Lynch a hero, mainly because she never did anything heroic. I also resent the hell out of her being decorated, it's a terrible slap in the face for vets that actually earned their metals. You can hypothesize all you want about what the Iraqis would or wouldn't have done, it doesn't change anything - going on the past history of the Iraqi military and their treatment of prisoners, I think I would have done the same thing in his shoes. I guess you'll just have to hold a personal grudge against him for not knowing they were outnumbered 33 to 200 or so. That and him not being French. Gee, the nerve - you'd think there was a war on or something! Miller displayed leadership and courage under fire, and put himself at risk to save the lives of his comrades. His individual initiative is what leaders want in soldiers - it's what got the job done at Normandy, the Ardennes, Korea, etc. While I do have a problem with how Bush handled quite a lot, I'm not about to be an ass like you and belittle a man with far more balls than you'll ever know over how he conducted himself (quite honorably I might add) while bullets were whizzing about. Sorry BrownAura, you need to find something else to be bitter over. Given the way Washington is handling the majority of this, it shouldn't be hard.
Someone who behaves recklessly and puts other peoples lives at risk doesn't deserve a medal. It is a shame you still can't see that. I don't know whether I should be laughing at you or feeling sorry for you. He was given that medal for political reasons in an attempt to create heros in a war where there are none. He didn't go above and beyond the call of duty and used poor judgement in his handling of the entire situation, including his time in captivity. More balls... apparently he was thinking with that part like almost all men, obsessed with being macho and not seeing the big picture. More balls than brains.

The "individual initiative" is not "what got the job done" in Normandy and the Ardennes. The Allies simple overwhelmed the Germans with more tanks, more soldiers and more guns. It is no big secret the Germans fought way better than them. I don't see what "job got done" in korea. The US lost there, apparently human wave attacks where too much for the "individual initiative".
 

308nato

Platinum Member
Feb 10, 2002
2,674
0
0
Someone who behaves recklessly and puts other peoples lives at risk doesn't deserve a medal. It is a shame you still can't see that. I don't know whether I should be laughing at you or feeling sorry for you. He was given that medal for political reasons in an attempt to create heros in a war where there are none. He didn't go above and beyond the call of duty and used poor judgement in his handling of the entire situation, including his time in captivity. More balls... apparently he was thinking with that part like almost all men, obsessed with being macho and not seeing the big picture. More balls than brains.

The "individual initiative" is not "what got the job done" in Normandy and the Ardennes. The Allies simple overwhelmed the Germans with more tanks, more soldiers and more guns. It is no big secret the Germans fought way better than them. I don't see what "job got done" in korea. The US lost there, apparently human wave attacks where too much for the "individual initiative".
That has to be one of the most misguided and uninformed spoutings about military conflict I have ever seen. Congratulations.

 

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