The problem with conservatism.

[Corn]

Your conclusion is a gross misunderstanding of words taken out of context.

I'm afraid not. At a young age my parents became "born again" Christians and I was sent to a "non-denominational" Christian junior and high school. The very nature of this school lent itself to a diverse group religious fanatics.

The hot topics of debate during my time at that school were the "predestination" vs. "free will" and whether or not a christian could wind up in hell by falling from grace. Good times.

Ok, well maybe not.

If god exists, he gave you talents and abilities for a reason, just as he gave you your faults. Relying on god to keep you safe will net the same results as betting the farm on a poker game. Hey, you can live with the results after all, because whatever the outcome it is "His will". Who can argue with that?

In any event, you claiming this was in the "liberal" section means nothing when you qualify it with: "Only in politics today would these views be considered liberal.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: glugglug

Originally posted by: busmaster11

In the 80's, conservatism meant fiscally responsible.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA!!!! ROFLMAO! Tell me you're not trying to say Reagonomics is fiscally responsible!

Although..... maybe conservatism would be.... by the true definition, the Republicans haven't been conservative for a long time.

True, the Republicans have basically abandoned true fiscal conservatism in favor of political pandering, but I can't see myself voting for Kerry (or any Dem) because of that - after all, if I don't like Bush for creating another massive entitlement program (the prescription drug program, which was supposed to cost $400 billion but will likely cost $523 billion or more, according to the latest gov't estimates), how can I support the Dems, who faulted Bush for not making the program even bigger (the Democratic plan had a 'projected' price tag of $800 billion, and at this point, we should all know not to trust projections!)?

 

[smashp]

Gods Greatest gift to Man was Free Will.


So why do conservative religious types wish to make our will theirs.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: busmaster11
I believe in peace and in putting things in God's hands instead of relying on my own abilities, thats why I support strict gun control.

Let me get this straight. Because YOU look at the world through pussy-colored glasses YOU think everyone should be disarmed? And disarmed by the freaking STATE, with their "good" guns? That's insane.

It looks like you don't disagree with me as much as you might like to
Here - have a :beer: (but don't expect it often)

CkG

 

[glugglug]

Originally posted by: Mursilis
(the prescription drug program, which was supposed to cost $400 billion but will likely cost $523 billion or more, according to the latest gov't estimates)

A case of :beer::beer::beer: says the actual price proves to be over $2 trillion within the next 3 years.

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: Corn

Your conclusion is a gross misunderstanding of words taken out of context.

I'm afraid not. At a young age my parents became "born again" Christians and I was sent to a "non-denominational" Christian junior and high school. The very nature of this school lent itself to a diverse group religious fanatics.

The hot topics of debate during my time at that school were the "predestination" vs. "free will" and whether or not a christian could wind up in hell by falling from grace. Good times.

Ok, well maybe not.

If god exists, he gave you talents and abilities for a reason, just as he gave you your faults. Relying on god to keep you safe will net the same results as betting the farm on a poker game. Hey, you can live with the results after all, because whatever the outcome it is "His will". Who can argue with that?

In any event, you claiming this was in the "liberal" section means nothing when you qualify it with: "Only in politics today would these views be considered liberal.

Good question. Corn, if you are a Christian, I ask that you ask this question to your pastor or small group Bible study. If not, then it won't matter.

But I believe being a Christian is more than rituals or saying "Jesus I believe you are my savior". It involves dedicating your life to Him and loving Him and understanding what He did for you - what He really did for you. When you pray and integrate Him into the center of your life, He will bless you and give you the best of everything -even when you don't feel its best for you because your agenda is shortsighted compared to His. In light of this, I believe one should act and do his best after lots of prayer, and in the end, humbly acknowledge that the end result is His will which will prepare you best for your eternal life in his presence.

God calls us to lie down, and be humble. I forgot the verse, but there's a quote, if someone smacks your cheek, turn the other cheek so he can smack it as well...

I don't interpret this as saying leave yourself vulnerable so that people can come and shoot you and take your things, but just this: Owning many weapons and attempting to take everything into your own hands indicates a love for your life, and Jesus calls for us to let it go readily if we love Him.

 

[Corn]

.....if I don't like Bush for creating another massive entitlement program (the prescription drug program, which was supposed to cost $400 billion but will likely cost $523 billion or more, according to the latest gov't estimates), how can I support the Dems, who faulted Bush for not making the program even bigger (the Democratic plan had a 'projected' price tag of $800 billion, and at this point, we should all know not to trust projections!)?

Bingo, we have da winnah!!!!!!

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: busmaster11
I believe in peace and in putting things in God's hands instead of relying on my own abilities, thats why I support strict gun control.

Let me get this straight. Because YOU look at the world through pussy-colored glasses YOU think everyone should be disarmed? And disarmed by the freaking STATE, with their "good" guns? That's insane.

It looks like you don't disagree with me as much as you might like to
Here - have a :beer: (but don't expect it often)

CkG

Well hello CAD!

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: smashp
Gods Greatest gift to Man was Free Will.


So why do conservative religious types wish to make our will theirs.

How so?
I know in the case of abortion, pro-choicers try to suggest pro-lifers are "forcing their will on others", but really, there is a long history in this country of use of the law to protect third parties who cannot protect themselves (for example, laws against child abuse). See Libertarians for Life or the Athiest and Agnostic Pro-Life League for pro-life perspectives from a non-religious basis.
In what other ways are religious conservatives guilty of "making their will yours"? List specific issues; don't just throw around vague accusations.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: glugglug

Originally posted by: Mursilis
(the prescription drug program, which was supposed to cost $400 billion but will likely cost $523 billion or more, according to the latest gov't estimates)

A case of :beer::beer::beer: says the actual price proves to be over $2 trillion within the next 3 years.

Maybe; why would it be any different from any other gov't program, most of which end up costing far more than was projected?
But you didn't address the point - if Bush's program was bad for costing too much money we don't have, how are the Democrats a better alternative, when they proposed an even bigger program?!? To me, the parties are a choice between bad and worse, and at this point, the Republicans are merely bad, so they usually get my vote.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: busmaster11

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: busmaster11
I believe in peace and in putting things in God's hands instead of relying on my own abilities, thats why I support strict gun control.

Let me get this straight. Because YOU look at the world through pussy-colored glasses YOU think everyone should be disarmed? And disarmed by the freaking STATE, with their "good" guns? That's insane.

Ditto what HardWarrior said. I believe in peace as well, but I also believe in reality. Busmaster11, if you are a Christian, then you believe in the fallen nature of Man, and existance of sin, right? So if criminals are always going to exist, don't we need some mechanism to protect ourselves from them?

See my sig for an interesting view of gun control.

God calls on us to rely on Him. Of course, that can be interpretted in different ways.

I believe if people proven to be law-abiding citizens want to keep a handgun in their homes thats fine. Any more than that is not, IMO.

Nope, "god" calls on YOU to rely on him and I don't care HOW it's "interpreted." Be smart, don't try to time my religious conversion for me. This is SUPPOSED to be free society, not one based on mysticism. If you think it's just peachy to venture about with nothing but ass and face, then okay. But don't try to choose for me, based on who you vote for, when and where I carry. That's rude. The only difference between your views and mine on the subject of personal defense is a good mugging, my hands-clasped-to-the-heavens friend.

 

[Witling]

Busmaster11. I am a godless person. But, after reading most of the posts, I'd like to tell the board about Ted and Fred.

Fred went over to Ted's house. Ted had a horseshoe hanging over the door.

"Oh, Ted!. You don't believe that horseshoe brings luck, do you?" asked Fred.

"Not for a moment!" replied Ted. "But fortunately, it brings luck whether you believe it or not."

This is the thread that has the JohnGalt quote "Hegel once said, "What is well-known is not necessarily known merely because it is well-known." I admire this quote ("Hey, John. There's always a first time for everything).

I think there is much to chew on here. But then, I'm often mistaken.

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: busmaster11

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: busmaster11
I believe in peace and in putting things in God's hands instead of relying on my own abilities, thats why I support strict gun control.

Let me get this straight. Because YOU look at the world through pussy-colored glasses YOU think everyone should be disarmed? And disarmed by the freaking STATE, with their "good" guns? That's insane.

Ditto what HardWarrior said. I believe in peace as well, but I also believe in reality. Busmaster11, if you are a Christian, then you believe in the fallen nature of Man, and existance of sin, right? So if criminals are always going to exist, don't we need some mechanism to protect ourselves from them?

See my sig for an interesting view of gun control.

God calls on us to rely on Him. Of course, that can be interpretted in different ways.

I believe if people proven to be law-abiding citizens want to keep a handgun in their homes thats fine. Any more than that is not, IMO.

Nope, "god" calls on YOU to rely on him and I don't care HOW it's "interpreted." Be smart, don't try to time my religious conversion for me. This is SUPPOSED to be free society, not one based on mysticism. If you think it's just peachy to venture about with nothing but ass and face, then okay. But don't try to choose for me, based on who you vote for, when and where I carry. That's rude. The only difference between your views and mine on the subject of personal defense is a good mugging, my hands-clasped-to-the-heavens friend.

I can understand your frustration because my views, if they were all implemented as I described, would violate what you believe to be your freedoms. If I were you I would be upset too.

I assure you we have deeper differences than gun control. If not, then I would be obliged to apologize and retract.

 

[smashp]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: smashp
Gods Greatest gift to Man was Free Will.


So why do conservative religious types wish to make our will theirs.

How so?
I know in the case of abortion, pro-choicers try to suggest pro-lifers are "forcing their will on others", but really, there is a long history in this country of use of the law to protect third parties who cannot protect themselves (for example, laws against child abuse). See Libertarians for Life or the Athiest and Agnostic Pro-Life League for pro-life perspectives from a non-religious basis.
In what other ways are religious conservatives guilty of "making their will yours"? List specific issues; don't just throw around vague accusations.

Fair enough, The statement also applies to Liberals out there wishing to force their will on others, yet the level of hypocracy is low due to the fact that they arent holding up the bible to support their positions. when the bible is used as a defence against a certain behavior (abortion) or lifestyle (gay) and the bible is used as the sole reasoningin the "Its Sin" argument, it gets under my skin.

It is in mans nature to sin hence the nature of a free will. It is up to the individual to to live the life they decide, not up to a church or group of individuals to force you to their belief structure. The bible is used as a reasoning to their beliefs, yet many other beliefs they hold as a group actually contradict wit the teachings of the bible. (death sentence vs abortion)

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: smashp
Gods Greatest gift to Man was Free Will.


So why do conservative religious types wish to make our will theirs.

How so?
I know in the case of abortion, pro-choicers try to suggest pro-lifers are "forcing their will on others", but really, there is a long history in this country of use of the law to protect third parties who cannot protect themselves (for example, laws against child abuse).

That's all well and good, but you have to admit that conservative views on the subject of abortion just reek of hypocrisy. That same child they near-deify in the womb becomes a liability the second its born if its parent(s) require some assistance in its care. What about those 40k kids that die worldwide from preventable illnesses every day? Don't they represent a clear and present target for all the conservative calls for "protecting the innocent?" Leave women to control their own bodies. We DON'T want to go back to the days of coat-rack abortions because some people can't tend to their own affairs.

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: Witling
Busmaster11. I am a godless person. But, after reading most of the posts, I'd like to tell the board about Ted and Fred.

Fred went over to Ted's house. Ted had a horseshoe hanging over the door.

"Oh, Ted!. You don't believe that horseshoe brings luck, do you?" asked Fred.

"Not for a moment!" replied Ted. "But fortunately, it brings luck whether you believe it or not."

This is the thread that has the JohnGalt quote "Hegel once said, "What is well-known is not necessarily known merely because it is well-known." I admire this quote ("Hey, John. There's always a first time for everything).

I think there is much to chew on here. But then, I'm often mistaken.

How can Ted say matter-of-factly that it does bring luck when he doesn't believe it? Isn't that contradictory?

I freely admit my ignorance. Please explain the JohnGalt quote to me. I thought I understood it with my initial reply, but maybe not?

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: smashp

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: smashp
Gods Greatest gift to Man was Free Will.


So why do conservative religious types wish to make our will theirs.

How so?
I know in the case of abortion, pro-choicers try to suggest pro-lifers are "forcing their will on others", but really, there is a long history in this country of use of the law to protect third parties who cannot protect themselves (for example, laws against child abuse). See Libertarians for Life or the Athiest and Agnostic Pro-Life League for pro-life perspectives from a non-religious basis.
In what other ways are religious conservatives guilty of "making their will yours"? List specific issues; don't just throw around vague accusations.

Fair enough, The statement also applies to Liberals out there wishing to force their will on others, yet the level of hypocracy is low due to the fact that they arent holding up the bible to support their positions. when the bible is used as a defence against a certain behavior (abortion) or lifestyle (gay) and the bible is used as the sole reasoningin the "Its Sin" argument, it gets under my skin.

It is in mans nature to sin hence the nature of a free will. It is up to the individual to to live the life they decide, not up to a church or group of individuals to force you to their belief structure. The bible is used as a reasoning to their beliefs, yet many other beliefs they hold as a group actually contradict wit the teachings of the bible. (death sentence vs abortion)

Which is why I'm wavering on capital punishment - I see nothing capital punishment does that life imprisonment without parole doesn't also accomplish. But regarding inconsistencies, we can probably agree that both sides have their fair share, which is why I generally identify more with the 'libertarian' label rather than the 'conservative' label.

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: smashp

Fair enough, The statement also applies to Liberals out there wishing to force their will on others, yet the level of hypocracy is low due to the fact that they arent holding up the bible to support their positions. when the bible is used as a defence against a certain behavior (abortion) or lifestyle (gay) and the bible is used as the sole reasoningin the "Its Sin" argument, it gets under my skin.

I can understand if you're not a Christian, but if you are, why does that get under your skin?

It is in mans nature to sin hence the nature of a free will. It is up to the individual to to live the life they decide, not up to a church or group of individuals to force you to their belief structure. The bible is used as a reasoning to their beliefs, yet many other beliefs they hold as a group actually contradict wit the teachings of the bible. (death sentence vs abortion)

This exactly my point from a Christian perspective. I cite well-established liberal and conservative institutions as likely being pleasing to God, and vice versa. You can't equate the Bible's teachings with that of every church to what the religious right believes... There are many differences, and they are mostly politically motivated.

Many Christians are indeed hypocritical. But if we are genuine to God, He will draw us closer to the truth.

 

[smashp]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: smashp

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: smashp
Gods Greatest gift to Man was Free Will.


So why do conservative religious types wish to make our will theirs.

How so?
I know in the case of abortion, pro-choicers try to suggest pro-lifers are "forcing their will on others", but really, there is a long history in this country of use of the law to protect third parties who cannot protect themselves (for example, laws against child abuse). See Libertarians for Life or the Athiest and Agnostic Pro-Life League for pro-life perspectives from a non-religious basis.
In what other ways are religious conservatives guilty of "making their will yours"? List specific issues; don't just throw around vague accusations.

Fair enough, The statement also applies to Liberals out there wishing to force their will on others, yet the level of hypocracy is low due to the fact that they arent holding up the bible to support their positions. when the bible is used as a defence against a certain behavior (abortion) or lifestyle (gay) and the bible is used as the sole reasoningin the "Its Sin" argument, it gets under my skin.

It is in mans nature to sin hence the nature of a free will. It is up to the individual to to live the life they decide, not up to a church or group of individuals to force you to their belief structure. The bible is used as a reasoning to their beliefs, yet many other beliefs they hold as a group actually contradict wit the teachings of the bible. (death sentence vs abortion)

Which is why I'm wavering on capital punishment - I see nothing capital punishment does that life imprisonment without parole doesn't also accomplish. But regarding inconsistencies, we can probably agree that both sides have their fair share, which is why I generally identify more with the 'libertarian' label rather than the 'conservative' label.

i view my self also as a liberatarian somewhat also, i dont like the mixture of church and state, yet i am a christian. Im rather socially liberal, but am a strong fiscal conservative and semi-isolationist. I am also a stong capitalist who believes we should regulate to prevent coruption, as it makes the system flawed and rigged and I believe in the power of organized labor yet view it as often abused for other means.

I dont see much that eiher party offers me.

I just want them to both leave me the hell alone.

 

[Witling]

How can Ted say matter-of-factly that it does bring luck when he doesn't believe it? Isn't that contradictory?

I freely admit my ignorance. Please explain the JohnGalt quote to me. I thought I understood it with my initial reply, but maybe not?

Of course Ted's view is contradictory. That's what makes this humorous. As a rational intellectual, he denies that the horseshoe brings luck. As a person, he believes it brings luck. It points out the inherent contradictions in most humans.

Frankly, I think JohnGalt's quote is much harder for me. I have to think about that.

 

[Corn]

Corn, if you are a Christian....

I don't consider myself to be one BM. In a schitzophrenic way I am both thankful and resentful for my upbringing. My mother was the root cause for the family conversion to born again christianity, my pops loves my mom, and as such his conversion was out of loyalty and respect for my mother, moreso than any real foundation of faith in the almighty.

My mother is a fanatic. Over the edge. I won't go over the details, just know that I understand extreme religious fundamentalism. My pops is a saint for what he has had to endure, but he loves her so he doesn't see the sacrifice for what it is. I respect my father more than anyone I could imagine.

That same respect prohibits me from ridiculing the faith of others. We all have our quirks. You have your interpretation of "turn the other cheek", and I disagree. Humility doesn't extend into the realm of self-preservation or protecting your family.

As a result of the dangers I face because of the duties of my employment, I have a CCW permit (obtained when it was required to prove a need) and do carry. I have been threatened and accosted on occasion, and if I were a Chrisitian, I doubt the fact that I pack heat for mine and my family's protection would be frowned upon by the almighty--being pragmatic is not a sin. In my opinion, of course.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: smashp

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: smashp

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: smashp
Gods Greatest gift to Man was Free Will.


So why do conservative religious types wish to make our will theirs.

How so?
I know in the case of abortion, pro-choicers try to suggest pro-lifers are "forcing their will on others", but really, there is a long history in this country of use of the law to protect third parties who cannot protect themselves (for example, laws against child abuse). See Libertarians for Life or the Athiest and Agnostic Pro-Life League for pro-life perspectives from a non-religious basis.
In what other ways are religious conservatives guilty of "making their will yours"? List specific issues; don't just throw around vague accusations.

Fair enough, The statement also applies to Liberals out there wishing to force their will on others, yet the level of hypocracy is low due to the fact that they arent holding up the bible to support their positions. when the bible is used as a defence against a certain behavior (abortion) or lifestyle (gay) and the bible is used as the sole reasoningin the "Its Sin" argument, it gets under my skin.

It is in mans nature to sin hence the nature of a free will. It is up to the individual to to live the life they decide, not up to a church or group of individuals to force you to their belief structure. The bible is used as a reasoning to their beliefs, yet many other beliefs they hold as a group actually contradict wit the teachings of the bible. (death sentence vs abortion)

Which is why I'm wavering on capital punishment - I see nothing capital punishment does that life imprisonment without parole doesn't also accomplish. But regarding inconsistencies, we can probably agree that both sides have their fair share, which is why I generally identify more with the 'libertarian' label rather than the 'conservative' label.

i view my self also as a liberatarian somewhat also, i dont like the mixture of church and state, yet i am a christian. Im rather socially liberal, but am a strong fiscal conservative and semi-isolationist. I am also a stong capitalist who believes we should regulate to prevent coruption, as it makes the system flawed and rigged and I believe in the power of organized labor yet view it as often abused for other means.

I dont see much that eiher party offers me.

I just want them to both leave me the hell alone.

Who was it who said that "He who governs least governs best"? That's probably my philosophy as well, but I think it pretty clearly aligns me with the Republican party (not that the match is perfect by any means). The Democratic platform is just too much creeping socialism for me, not to mention it'll bankrupt the country. A key component of freedom is economic freedom; if you can't keep most of what you make, what good is the right to complain about it?

 

[xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx]

Originally posted by: Witling

Frankly, I think JohnGalt's quote is much harder for me. I have to think about that.

I am glad you can appreciate that quote; it's one of my favorites. Sadly, however, it takes a lifetime of learning to truly understand the meaning of that passage.

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: Corn

Corn, if you are a Christian....

I don't consider myself to be one BM. In a schitzophrenic way I am both thankful and resentful for my upbringing. My mother was the root cause for the family conversion to born again christianity, my pops loves my mom, and as such his conversion was out of loyalty and respect for my mother, moreso than any real foundation of faith in the almighty.

My mother is a fanatic. Over the edge. I won't go over the details, just know that I understand extreme religious fundamentalism. My pops is a saint for what he has had to endure, but he loves her so he doesn't see the sacrifice for what it is. I respect my father more than anyone I could imagine.

That same respect prohibits me from ridiculing the faith of others. We all have our quirks. You have your interpretation of "turn the other cheek", and I disagree. Humility doesn't extend into the realm of self-preservation or protecting your family.

As a result of the dangers I face because of the duties of my employment, I have a CCW permit (obtained when it was required to prove a need) and do carry. I have been threatened and accosted on occasion, and if I were a Chrisitian, I doubt the fact that I pack heat for mine and my family's protection would be frowned upon by the almighty--being pragmatic is not a sin. In my opinion, of course.

I don't disagree with anything you said. I respect it a great deal in fact. The truth is, my beliefs may be drawn from the Bible, but they are my interpretations. Some I consider rather obvious interpretations, but some may be up for debate. I thank you for your respect.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: busmaster11

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: busmaster11

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: busmaster11
I believe in peace and in putting things in God's hands instead of relying on my own abilities, thats why I support strict gun control.

Let me get this straight. Because YOU look at the world through pussy-colored glasses YOU think everyone should be disarmed? And disarmed by the freaking STATE, with their "good" guns? That's insane.

Ditto what HardWarrior said. I believe in peace as well, but I also believe in reality. Busmaster11, if you are a Christian, then you believe in the fallen nature of Man, and existance of sin, right? So if criminals are always going to exist, don't we need some mechanism to protect ourselves from them?

See my sig for an interesting view of gun control.

God calls on us to rely on Him. Of course, that can be interpretted in different ways.

I believe if people proven to be law-abiding citizens want to keep a handgun in their homes thats fine. Any more than that is not, IMO.

Nope, "god" calls on YOU to rely on him and I don't care HOW it's "interpreted." Be smart, don't try to time my religious conversion for me. This is SUPPOSED to be free society, not one based on mysticism. If you think it's just peachy to venture about with nothing but ass and face, then okay. But don't try to choose for me, based on who you vote for, when and where I carry. That's rude. The only difference between your views and mine on the subject of personal defense is a good mugging, my hands-clasped-to-the-heavens friend.

I can understand your frustration because my views, if they were all implemented as I described, would violate what you believe to be your freedoms. If I were you I would be upset too.

I assure you we have deeper differences than gun control. If not, then I would be obliged to apologize and retract.

Absolutely we differ, to a degree I think you'd find hard to imagine. An apology from you would mean nothing to me anyway. This isn't THAT sort of discussion. And just for the record, I'm not at all frustrated by your views on self-defense. I'm contemptuos of them, and it has NOTHING to do with your obvious religious leanings. Something else for you to consider: When you vote for someone who wants to make me helpless in the face of barbarity, you're voting for someone who wants to disarm my wife as well. At that point you move past being "rude" and firmly place yourself in the mortal enemy category. And there are millions of people who feel just as I do. Think about that in between sermons, sir.