The Pro-Illegal Immigration crowd in its finest hour.

[Svnla]

I've said here many times that I think all the illegals should be deported. I've talked to others about the problem and never heard anyone express the view that they feel the immigration laws should be ignored.

While I can respect the opinions of people that argue for changes with the laws (even if I disagree with them on various points), the OP calling them "Pro-Illegal Immigration" is just an attempt to collectively demonize all those who do not agree with his views. Such attempts always take something away from any rational discussion.

I am a LEGAL immigrant.

I and millions of LEGAL immigrants like me believe in following existing Federal laws and immigration regulations, sensible immigration policies and NOT massive ILLEGAL invasion.

Groups like La Raza and people like in the OP's story do NOT believe in follow the laws and want AMNESTY/paths to citizenship for ILLEGALS (i.e. rewarding for BREAKING the laws). Is it rational?

See the HUGE differences?

ILLEGAL is a crime, not a race/ethnicity.

 

[Svnla]

You are either with them or agin them. But you definitely can not question xenophobia.

Millions of LEGAL immigrants like me (of ALL races and I am NOT white) are against ILLEGAL invasion. We believe in follow EXISTING immigration laws and no amnesty for ILLEGALS.

ILLEGAL is a crime, NOT a ethnicity/race.

 

[jackschmittusa]

Svnla

First, nowhere have I supported illegal immigration.

Second, how does "AMNESTY/paths to citizenship equate to pro-illegal? Pro-illegal implys a total disregard for the laws. They are proposed solutions that I disagree with, but your use of caps suggests you are being emotional, rather than rational.

 

[Svnla]

Svnla

First, nowhere have I supported illegal immigration.

Second, how does "AMNESTY/paths to citizenship equate to pro-illegal? Pro-illegal implys a total disregard for the laws. They are proposed solutions that I disagree with, but your use of caps suggests you are being emotional, rather than rational.

I never said you did.

They want to reward ILLEGALS, the same kind that BREAKING existing laws and regulations..i.e. total disregard for immigration laws. I don't see anything about following the laws from La Raza and similar groups or people in the OP's story or ILLEGALS and their lovers. I never hear about "well, let follow the existing laws first and then we can discuss further". All I hear is "oh well, they ILLEGALS are here, let make ways for them to become citizens and if you don't agree then you are racist scums" from those group.

Here is one of my many examples: http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/07/31/1755918/ariz-ruling-may-backfire-for-immigrants.html Read the article and then the comment section below.

Prove me wrong by give me some links/sources show that they want to follow existing laws.

Yes, I am pissed off. I and millions of LEGAL immigrants worked so hard and wait so long to be LEGAL and US citizens. Those ILLEGALS want to have the same benefits without any hard work and dedication.

And I will always put caps on LEGALS and ILLEGALS because there is no such thing as "undocumented"

 

[Tom]

the focus on "illegal" is not a legitimate argument. Any time a law can be passed that would make the "illegals", legal, therefore making that point moot.

The real discussion is about what law you want, not just throwing a word around.

 

[shiner]

Where is Rick Monday when you need him?

 

[Kappo]

Svnla

First, nowhere have I supported illegal immigration.

Second, how does "AMNESTY/paths to citizenship equate to pro-illegal? Pro-illegal implys a total disregard for the laws. They are proposed solutions that I disagree with, but your use of caps suggests you are being emotional, rather than rational.

Oh, so you want to make a law that legalizes what is currently illegal and call it fixed? I guess we could do that for murders too. Just legalize it, call it "Adult Euthanization" and BAM! We have fixed all of the murder crimes in the US. Brilliant plan there, buddy.

 

[jackschmittusa]

Kappo

Do you have a reading comprehension problem? Please point out my stand on the issue. What you quoted certainly does not.

I simply stated that a rational discussion may involve points that you disagree with. You somehow mangle that into the idea that I support such ideas. I can't even figure out how you got from A to B.

I guess the possibility of a rational discussion is not an option here.

edit:

How to NOT get a consensus for a solution to a problem:

make up derogatory names to call others whose support you might need

make wild assumptions about their beliefs

assume that no one with ideas contrary to your own belongs in the discussion

assert that compromise is weakness

assume that only your solution is valid or desirable

For the record, I have long suggested that illegals should be deported. I do not favor a general amnesty. I think employers of illegals should be punished. These things all support current law. But it is obvious that the current system does not work as we would like it to. There are myriad ideas of what to do next. If large numbers of people cannot come together to form a solution, we will remain where we are. No ideas are invalid or false until they are presented for analysis by others. The "I'm right, you're wrong" approach does not win many converts.

 

[DesiPower]

a a Obama, dont deport my mama

 

[BoomerD]

"Pro-Illegal Immigration" crowd?

Never heard of that.

Some question they way we currently do things, but I think "Pro-Illegal Immigration" is something you made up.

While I doubt that folks call themeslves "Pro-Illegal Immigration" supporters, there is a large faction who believes that the US has no right to restrict immigration, especially from south of the border. Those same people seem to believe that the US has no right to try to catch and deport those who have come here illegally.

I'm one of the hard-case bastards who believes that ANY illegal immigrant, whether they snuck across the border or simply have overstayed their visa, should be deported to their native country immediately. IF they want to return, they have to get in line just like everyone else. I have no problem with seizing any property they own to help defray their deportation costs and the costs incurred by the various governmental agencies while they were here. I also believe that the Constitution needs to have the 14th Amendment wording changed...or clarified to stop the "anchor baby" provision. Children born to illegal immigrants should NOT automatically become US citizens...but instead, should be citizens of the country of their parents.

Do I think any of this will ever happen? Hell no. Too many bleeding-hearts to ever allow such a thing.

The USA does NOT have to tolerate illegal immigration...nor illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants have NO RIGHT to demand any fucking thing in this country.

 

[ShawnD1]

Oh, so you want to make a law that legalizes what is currently illegal and call it fixed? I guess we could do that for murders too. Just legalize it, call it "Adult Euthanization" and BAM! We have fixed all of the murder crimes in the US. Brilliant plan there, buddy.

That's exactly what I was thinking.

Their being in the country is not the problem. The problem is that illegal immigrants are criminals. They broke the law, so they should be punished in a way that is appropriate. That doesn't mean jail or death camps; just send them back home. It's really not that complicated. Legal immigrants remain in the country because they haven't done anything wrong. They followed the laws, entered the country legally, so they can stay legally.

I always wonder if people in the pro-illegal crowd have kids or dogs or anything like that. If your kid breaks a window and calls the neighbor a i love you, do you punish the kid to make sure he follows the rules in the future, or do you give the kid amnesty and not punish anything they've done? Just let the kid do whatever he wants? Follow whatever random rules he wants and ignore the ones he doesn't like?

 

[Kappo]

Kappo

Do you have a reading comprehension problem? Please point out my stand on the issue. What you quoted certainly does not.

I simply stated that a rational discussion may involve points that you disagree with. You somehow mangle that into the idea that I support such ideas. I can't even figure out how you got from A to B.

I guess the possibility of a rational discussion is not an option here.

edit:

How to NOT get a consensus for a solution to a problem:

make up derogatory names to call others whose support you might need

make wild assumptions about their beliefs

assume that no one with ideas contrary to your own belongs in the discussion

assert that compromise is weakness

assume that only your solution is valid or desirable

For the record, I have long suggested that illegals should be deported. I do not favor a general amnesty. I think employers of illegals should be punished. These things all support current law. But it is obvious that the current system does not work as we would like it to. There are myriad ideas of what to do next. If large numbers of people cannot come together to form a solution, we will remain where we are. No ideas are invalid or false until they are presented for analysis by others. The "I'm right, you're wrong" approach does not win many converts.

This MIGHT sound crazy, but... how about we start by enforcing the laws we DO have? I wasn't singling you out, by the way. It was more of an answer to the amnesty or "path to citizenship while you break the law" part

And yeah, I'm right in this case. So are the other 70% of the US who agree with me.

Want to stop illegal immigration? Follow these steps:

1) Repeal anchor baby law.
2) Refuse any and all government assistance (medical, living, social, schools, anything)
3) Make it unprofitable to hire illegals (ie - a fine high enough to put you out of business if you do it more than once or twice)

There are alot of different ways to get to the point where you can do all of this and a few things need to be cleaned up (faster green cards, better tracking for the people on visa, etc), but that is the overall basics.

Remove the free shit, people stop coming. Funny how that works.

 

[RabidMongoose]

I still don't get the whole Mexican flag thing. If you came to America because it was so much better than the shithole you are from, why do you insist on acting like this is Mexico. I am cool with seasonal/local ethnic pride (irish, polish, mexican etc...), but at the end of the day those folks fly an American flag at home. The problem with the immigration supporters is that they really seem to think that they are taking the Southwest back over in the name of Mexico. This is really the one thing about this whole mess that bothers the hell out of me. If you want to come here to work, play, whatever, cool, but realise you are a guest and don't push your BS third world nationality on us.

You must be joking. My old roommate had a giant Italian flag in his room. I used to see so many Irish flags when I was in Boston. There's basically a double standard when it comes to Mexican flags, I guess.

 

[ShawnD1]

T
Want to stop illegal immigration? Follow these steps:

1) Repeal anchor baby law.

It seems like the only real problem is that the law is done in a way that does not break apart families. As a result, illegals are allowed to stay because their baby is a US citizen. How about this: the baby has US citizenship but the parents are still kicked out. You can take the baby with you or you can leave it behind in foster care, but you are not allowed to stay here.

The trick is that some people might still cross the border so their kid gets a chance at living in the US even if the parents can't. What is Mexican culture like? Would anyone do that?

 

[hal2kilo]

You must be joking. My old roommate had a giant Italian flag in his room. I used to see so many Irish flags when I was in Boston. There's basically a double standard when it comes to Mexican flags, I guess.

I'll say it again. Columbus Day ring any bells!

Hint read up on history of Columbus day.

 

[Tom]

That's exactly what I was thinking.

Their being in the country is not the problem. The problem is that illegal immigrants are criminals. They broke the law, so they should be punished in a way that is appropriate. That doesn't mean jail or death camps; just send them back home. It's really not that complicated. Legal immigrants remain in the country because they haven't done anything wrong. They followed the laws, entered the country legally, so they can stay legally.

I always wonder if people in the pro-illegal crowd have kids or dogs or anything like that. If your kid breaks a window and calls the neighbor a i love you, do you punish the kid to make sure he follows the rules in the future, or do you give the kid amnesty and not punish anything they've done? Just let the kid do whatever he wants? Follow whatever random rules he wants and ignore the ones he doesn't like?

if being in the country isn't a problem, why is sending them back the appropriate punishment ?

 

[rpanic]

You must be joking. My old roommate had a giant Italian flag in his room. I used to see so many Irish flags when I was in Boston. There's basically a double standard when it comes to Mexican flags, I guess.

Try living in LA or other border cities that have been taken over. The Mexicans think this is their land; it’s not the same as the Irish pub or Italian deli with a flag somewhere. To them it’s about being Mexican first, which is why you occasionally see it fly above the US flag in front of public buildings around here. How many Illegal Italians and Irish are waving the flag saying this is their land part of Ireland or Italy?

 

[Kappo]

It seems like the only real problem is that the law is done in a way that does not break apart families. As a result, illegals are allowed to stay because their baby is a US citizen. How about this: the baby has US citizenship but the parents are still kicked out. You can take the baby with you or you can leave it behind in foster care, but you are not allowed to stay here.

The trick is that some people might still cross the border so their kid gets a chance at living in the US even if the parents can't. What is Mexican culture like? Would anyone do that?

No, they should not be afforded citizenship, IMO. As I see it, they are gaining something by using deception. Should not be allowed. That would stop ALOT of illegal immigration alone.

if being in the country isn't a problem, why is sending them back the appropriate punishment ?

The problem IS that they are here. Not themselves as a person, but as a whole. We have immigration laws so that we can limit the number of people we need/want coming into the country. When the floodgates open, our infrastructure takes a huge hit.

They are NOT all here to work. Some come to squirt out kids, some come to commit crimes that are more profitable, some also come here for free social services. Many of them do get jobs and work, but they don't pay taxes (and raise my taxes in the process) unless they are using a fake ID.

 

[hal2kilo]

Try living in LA or other border cities that have been taken over. The Mexicans think this is their land; it’s not the same as the Irish pub or Italian deli with a flag somewhere. To them it’s about being Mexican first, which is why you occasionally see it fly above the US flag in front of public buildings around here. How many Illegal Italians and Irish are waving the flag saying this is their land part of Ireland or Italy?

I lived in Orange and Anaheim from 2002 to 2005, definately a culture shock (65 to 70% hispanic). They even have theri own grocery stores that have buses that pick them up since I guess alot of them don't have cars. I will admit I was a bit intimidated in the beginning, but it was my problem and I found out that the hispanics work their butts off. Try getting your car completely hand dried off and almost mini-detailed by some snot nose caucasion teenager elsewhere for less than $25 bucks.

In that situation there's no way to tell who is legal or illegal. The AZ law would be an obscenity there.

 

[ShawnD1]

if being in the country isn't a problem, why is sending them back the appropriate punishment ?

What happens when you catch someone trying to sneak into a movie? You boot their ass out. You don't just let them stay there and say "well he would have got in anyway if he had just waited, so I might as well let him stay".
That's bullshit. It undermines the entire system. Anyone trying to jump the line should be booted out.

No, they should not be afforded citizenship, IMO. As I see it, they are gaining something by using deception. Should not be allowed. That would stop ALOT of illegal immigration alone.

Not granting citizenship unless their parents are citizens would make millions of Americans suddenly not-American. Suppose a family from Ireland is legally living in the US with a work visa and they do not have citizenship. If they have a baby in the US, which country does this kid belong to? Ireland doesn't want him since he wasn't born in Ireland, and the US wouldn't want him because his parents are Irish. The kid would have no real citizenship and would be treated as an immigrant in either country.

 

[Rainsford]

I don't really get the anti-illegal immigration arguments that stem from outrage over the fact that illegal immigration is illegal. That seems like circular logic to me. You support keeping illegal immigration illegal, because it's illegal and illegal immigrants are breaking the law. Call me crazy, but I like the idea of laws having a REASON for existing.

 

[Double Trouble]

I don't really get the anti-illegal immigration arguments that stem from outrage over the fact that illegal immigration is illegal. That seems like circular logic to me. You support keeping illegal immigration illegal, because it's illegal and illegal immigrants are breaking the law. Call me crazy, but I like the idea of laws having a REASON for existing.

Not circular logic at all. Illegal immigration is just that -- illegal. Laws should be enforced just like we expect any law to be enforced. The discussion over what the law should be is completely separate from whether existing law should be enforced. Everyone should be subject to the same laws, and existing laws should be enforced. Then there is a documented process for changing laws if society wants to change immigration law.

There isn't a nation in the world (that I know of) that doesn't have immigration laws. They are laws that dictate how people can enter the country or immigrate to it. I'm not sure what part of that doesn't seem like a "REASON" for existing.

 

[ShawnD1]

I don't really get the anti-illegal immigration arguments that stem from outrage over the fact that illegal immigration is illegal. That seems like circular logic to me. You support keeping illegal immigration illegal, because it's illegal and illegal immigrants are breaking the law. Call me crazy, but I like the idea of laws having a REASON for existing.

You're right, there should be absolutely no requirements to enter the country. No background check, no criminal record check, no medical records, no quotas of any kind, nothing. People should be allowed to come and go as they please, with absolutely no documentation proving who they are.

There's a reason their applications were rejected and they had to sneak into the country.
1 - they might have a criminal record
2 - they might be diseased
3 - they might not have any tangible skills
4 - they might not have any education

 

[Kappo]

What happens when you catch someone trying to sneak into a movie? You boot their ass out. You don't just let them stay there and say "well he would have got in anyway if he had just waited, so I might as well let him stay".
That's bullshit. It undermines the entire system. Anyone trying to jump the line should be booted out.


Not granting citizenship unless their parents are citizens would make millions of Americans suddenly not-American. Suppose a family from Ireland is legally living in the US with a work visa and they do not have citizenship. If they have a baby in the US, which country does this kid belong to? Ireland doesn't want him since he wasn't born in Ireland, and the US wouldn't want him because his parents are Irish. The kid would have no real citizenship and would be treated as an immigrant in either country.

The issue is illegal immigration. I don't mind people who are here legally being given a choice on which citizenship they prefer. It's more to stop some family to sneak over here, pop out 4 or 5 pieces crotch fruit and they all have citizenship. At that point it's more expensive to care for her kids than to just let her stay.

If they don't have citizenship, then they just go back to where she came from, kids in tow.

 

[BoomerD]

I don't really get the anti-illegal immigration arguments that stem from outrage over the fact that illegal immigration is illegal. That seems like circular logic to me. You support keeping illegal immigration illegal, because it's illegal and illegal immigrants are breaking the law. Call me crazy, but I like the idea of laws having a REASON for existing.

How about this...instead of looking at it as crossing the border illegally, let's look at it like it's your house...

Let’s say I break into your house. Let’s say that when you discover me in your house, you insist that I leave.

But I say, ‘No! I like it here. It’s better than my house. I’ve made all the beds and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors. I’ve done all the things you don’t like to do. I’m hard-working and honest (except for when I broke into your house).’

According to the protesters:

You are Required to let me stay in your house
You are Required to feed me
You are Required to add me to your family’s insurance plan
You are Required to educate my kids
You are Required to provide other benefits to me & to my family

(I will do all of your yard work because I am also hard-working and honest, except for that breaking in part).

If you try to call the police or force me out, I will call my friends who will picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my RIGHT to be there.

It’s only fair, after all, because you have a nicer house than I do, and I’m just trying to better myself. I’m a hard-working and honest, person, except for well, you know, I did break into your house And what a deal it is for me!!!

I live in your house, contributing only a fraction of the cost of my keep, and there is nothing you can do about it without being accused of cold, uncaring, selfish, prejudiced, and bigoted behavior.

Oh yeah, I DEMAND that you learn MY LANGUAGE!!! so you can communicate with me.

Why can’t people see how ridiculous this is?!

Every nation has the right to limit how many people enter and what character and job skills those people have.

Unfettered and uncontrolled immigration would turn the USA into another 3rd world shit-hole just like the places many of them are trying to escape.