"The pool is deceptively shallow."

[mugs]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: dullard
Remove the word 'deceptively' and you still should have a correct sentence. You should always be able to remove adverbs and adjectives and still have the true meaning. The adverbs and adjectives just make the true meaning more clear or are there just to make the sentence more pleasant.

The pool is shallow.

That is the ultimate truth. There isn't much water there.

Now, we have to ask what is the deception? Lets say the pool is a 6 inch deep hole in the ground. Would this pool actually ever deceive someone into thinking it was only 3 inches? And if so, does it ever matter if the hole is 3" or 6"? Probably not. The warning just doesn't make sense in that case. But if the pool is actually 6" deep but LOOKS far deeper, you could be deceived and that could be a problem if you decide to dive into it. The warning now makes sense and is important.

Thus, the pool is shallow and the adverb is useful only if it appears deeper than that. The pool is shallower than it appears.

Counter-argument: hardly.

"The pool is hardly shallow."

Take away hardly

"The pool is shallow"

Completely different meaning.

Counter-argument - replace deceptively with its dictionary definition:

The pool is shallow in a deceptive manner.

The pool is still shallow. I'd compare that to the dictionary definition of hardly, but your usage of hardly was idiomatic and replacing it with its definition would change the meaning. Dullard's example works, because adding the adverb deceptively doesn't reverse the meaning of the word that it modifies. Your idiomatic usage of hardly reverses the meaning of the word it modifies.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN

Originally posted by: jonks
Strong majority voice thus far for 'shallower'. Consider this argument for 'deeper':

p1: "I'm going to hike up my pants and walk across that stream. It aint but a foot or so deep."
p2: "I wouldn't recommend that friend, the water is deceptively shallow, you'll be in over your head by midstream."

The experts that read this sentence and could not agree do not seem to be very expert at English. They seem to be forgetting that shallow in these sentence is not a verb.

Here is a breakdown of the sentence.

The pool = subject

is = the verb

deceptively = adverb

shallow = adjective

So, deceptively is modifying the word IS not SHALLOW.
What IS the pool? Shallow.
So what is deceptive about the pool? That it IS shallow instead of appearing shallow.
Therefore, the pool actually is shallow, but it deceives by not appearing that way.

I agree with your conclusion, but not how you got there. Adverbs can modify adjectives, and I believe deceptively is modifying shallow.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

The pool is shallow, deceptively.

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: dullard
Remove the word 'deceptively' and you still should have a correct sentence. You should always be able to remove adverbs and adjectives and still have the true meaning. The adverbs and adjectives just make the true meaning more clear or are there just to make the sentence more pleasant.

The pool is shallow.

That is the ultimate truth. There isn't much water there.

Now, we have to ask what is the deception? Lets say the pool is a 6 inch deep hole in the ground. Would this pool actually ever deceive someone into thinking it was only 3 inches? And if so, does it ever matter if the hole is 3" or 6"? Probably not. The warning just doesn't make sense in that case. But if the pool is actually 6" deep but LOOKS far deeper, you could be deceived and that could be a problem if you decide to dive into it. The warning now makes sense and is important.

Thus, the pool is shallow and the adverb is useful only if it appears deeper than that. The pool is shallower than it appears.

Counter-argument: hardly.

"The pool is hardly shallow."

Take away hardly

"The pool is shallow"

Completely different meaning.

Counter-argument - replace deceptively with its dictionary definition:

The pool is shallow in a deceptive manner.

The pool is still shallow. I'd compare that to the dictionary definition of hardly, but your usage of hardly was idiomatic and replacing it with its definition would change the meaning. Dullard's example works, because adding the adverb deceptively doesn't reverse the meaning of the word that it modifies. Your idiomatic usage of hardly reverses the meaning of the word it modifies.

"The pool is hardly shallow" has the same meaning when using the related dictionary replacement.

A dictionary replacement for hardly could be:

The pool is shallow to almost no degree.
The pool is probably or almost surely not shallow.

I was not offering a counter argument to the overall contention that in this specific case, removing the adverb informs one how to interpret the sentence with it. Rather, I was disputing the statement that "you should always be able to remove adverbs [...] and still have the true meaning."

 

[SMOGZINN]

I fall back to my original statement. There is no pool, and we are all shallow.

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN
I fall back to my original statement. There is no pool, and we are all shallow.

There is a pool. It's our gene pool. And it is shallow.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Shallower. Why would there be warnings that it is deeper than you think? If it is over 6' deep or 106' deep...what's the difference? I can swim though so to me a shallow pool would be more of a danger than a deeper pool.

 

[Chronoshock]

I would rather be deceptively shallow than shallowly deceptive or shallow and deceptive

 

[vshah]

deceptively shallow = looks shallow, but is actually deep

 

[Specop 007]

From Jonks sig.

Click (NSFW)

Deceptively

People think it means:
Nobody is sure.

Actually means:
Nobody is sure.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Shallower. Why would there be warnings that it is deeper than you think? If it is over 6' deep or 106' deep...what's the difference? I can swim though so to me a shallow pool would be more of a danger than a deeper pool.

I gave an ex in my op:

p1: "I'm going to hike up my pants and walk across that stream. It only looks like it's a foot or so deep."
p2: "I wouldn't recommend that friend, the water is deceptively shallow, you'll be in over your head by midstream."

 

[Tiamat]

deeper.

I take it to mean: The layman would think the pool is shallow, however, there is some trickery involved that misleads the layman into thinking this. The pool is actually deep.


An English language usage panel concluded that such warnings are worded in a way that would be misinterpreted by people who read it:

"Fifty percent thought the pool is shallower than it appears. Thirty-two percent thought the pool deeper than it appears. And 18 percent said it was impossible to decide." 1

It seems our poll here at AT also agrees with the findings.

 

[nakedfrog]

Cannot be determined.

 

[yankeesfan]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Cannot be determined.