"The pool is deceptively shallow."

[Turin39789]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN

Originally posted by: jonks
Strong majority voice thus far for 'shallower'. Consider this argument for 'deeper':

p1: "I'm going to hike up my pants and walk across that stream. It aint but a foot or so deep."
p2: "I wouldn't recommend that friend, the water is deceptively shallow, you'll be in over your head by midstream."

The experts that read this sentence and could not agree do not seem to be very expert at English. They seem to be forgetting that shallow in these sentence is not a verb.

Here is a breakdown of the sentence.

The pool = subject

is = the verb

deceptively = adverb

shallow = adjective

So, deceptively is modifying the word IS not SHALLOW.
What IS the pool? Shallow.
So what is deceptive about the pool? That it IS shallow instead of appearing shallow.
Therefore, the pool actually is shallow, but it deceives by not appearing that way.

Adverbs can modify verbs or adjectives. How do you determine whether the adverb in this case (DECEPTIVELY) is modifying the verb (IS) or the adjective (SHALLOW)?

You asked: What IS the pool? What if what the pool is "deceptively shallow", i.e. not shallow?

you mean what if the pool is shallow in a deceptive manner

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Turin39789

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN

Originally posted by: jonks
Strong majority voice thus far for 'shallower'. Consider this argument for 'deeper':

p1: "I'm going to hike up my pants and walk across that stream. It aint but a foot or so deep."
p2: "I wouldn't recommend that friend, the water is deceptively shallow, you'll be in over your head by midstream."

The experts that read this sentence and could not agree do not seem to be very expert at English. They seem to be forgetting that shallow in these sentence is not a verb.

Here is a breakdown of the sentence.

The pool = subject

is = the verb

deceptively = adverb

shallow = adjective

So, deceptively is modifying the word IS not SHALLOW.
What IS the pool? Shallow.
So what is deceptive about the pool? That it IS shallow instead of appearing shallow.
Therefore, the pool actually is shallow, but it deceives by not appearing that way.

Adverbs can modify verbs or adjectives. How do you determine whether the adverb in this case (DECEPTIVELY) is modifying the verb (IS) or the adjective (SHALLOW)?

You asked: What IS the pool? What if what the pool is "deceptively shallow", i.e. not shallow?

you mean what if the pool is shallow in a deceptive manner

that's putting it more accurately than I did, yes. It's shallowness is illusory, i.e. it's actually deep.

Check it:

http://www.esldesk.com/grammar/adverbs.htm
My brother is completely fearless. ('completely' modifies adjective 'fearless')

I've read that adverbs are "syntactically free" meaning they can be placed almost anywhere in a sentence. Figuring out what is being modified can sure lead to confusion.

As the 'expert group' recommends, the best route would be to reformulate the sentence to avoid confusion.

 

[MrPickins]

Originally posted by: Garet Jax

Originally posted by: MrPickins
Smogzinn has it right:

The pool is (deceptively) shallow.
The pool is shallow, but it looks deep.

Fixed.

So you agree with me? That didn't really need fixing.

 

[Turin39789]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Turin39789
[


you mean what if the pool is shallow in a deceptive manner

that's putting it more accurately than I did, yes. It's shallowness is illusory, i.e. it's actually deep.

No. The pool is still shallow, but it decieves you and appears deep. The shallowness is not illusory.

If it is obviously shallow, it is shallow in an obvious way. If it is deceptively shallow, it is shallow in a deceptive way. It is still shallow.

 

[MrPickins]

Originally posted by: jonks
that's putting it more accurately than I did, yes. It's shallowness is illusory, i.e. it's actually deep.

Check it:

http://www.esldesk.com/grammar/adverbs.htm
My brother is completely fearless. ('completely' modifies adjective 'fearless')

I've read that adverbs are "syntactically free" meaning they can be placed almost anywhere in a sentence. Figuring out what is being modified can sure lead to confusion.

As the 'expert group' recommends, the best route would be to reformulate the sentence to avoid confusion.

No:

My brother is completely fearless. -> My brother is fearless.

The pool is deceptively shallow. -> The pool is shallow.

Modifying the adjective doesn't negate it.

 

[ruu]

Originally posted by: Turin39789
No. The pool is still shallow, but it decieves you and appears deep. The shallowness is not illusory.

If it is obviously shallow, it is shallow in an obvious way. If it is deceptively shallow, it is shallow in a deceptive way. It is still shallow.

Well, my take on it is that the topical content of the sentence was addressed to the real nature of the pool, not the apparent nature. So if it's shallow in a deceptive way, I would assume that it's shallowness is not as it looks. My mind goes automatically to the opposite of shallow---deep.

I can see how some people would conclude that the "deceptive" part would indicate that it's even more so than it seems, but that's not my personal interpretation.

 

[ruu]

Originally posted by: MrPickins
No:

My brother is completely fearless. -> My brother is fearless.

The pool is deceptively shallow. -> The pool is shallow.

Modifying the adjective doesn't negate it.

True, but "to deceive" implies a negation of what is being presented. Therefore, I don't think it's a stretch to assume the opposite.

"completely," on the other hand, is just a reinforcement of the word it modifies.

 

[darkxshade]

This thread is deceptively deceiving.

 

[MrPickins]

Originally posted by: ruu

Originally posted by: MrPickins
No:

My brother is completely fearless. -> My brother is fearless.

The pool is deceptively shallow. -> The pool is shallow.

Modifying the adjective doesn't negate it.

True, but "to deceive" implies a negation of what is being presented. Therefore, I don't think it's a stretch to assume the opposite.

"completely," on the other hand, is just a reinforcement of the word it modifies.

I can see your point, but I have always heard the word "deceptively" used in the manner I noted above. Instead of negating the adjective, it reinforces it, while stating that the property of the adjective may go unnoticed.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Originally posted by: jonks

Check it:

http://www.esldesk.com/grammar/adverbs.htm
My brother is completely fearless. ('completely' modifies adjective 'fearless')

I've read that adverbs are "syntactically free" meaning they can be placed almost anywhere in a sentence. Figuring out what is being modified can sure lead to confusion.

As the 'expert group' recommends, the best route would be to reformulate the sentence to avoid confusion.

This grammatical error actually has a name, a squinting modifier, where an adverb is placed between a verb and an adjective. The normal resolution for this would be to assume that the adverb can be removed from the sentence and the sentence still has the same basic meaning. So, in this case we would assume that the pool is shallow. But in any case, the sentence as it stands is grammatically incorrect and can not be understood.
This is why grammar is important.

 

[Insomniator]

Its freakin shallow.

 

[dullard]

Remove the word 'deceptively' and you still should have a correct sentence. You should always be able to remove adverbs and adjectives and still have the true meaning. The adverbs and adjectives just make the true meaning more clear or are there just to make the sentence more pleasant.

The pool is shallow.

That is the ultimate truth. There isn't much water there.

Now, we have to ask what is the deception? Lets say the pool is a 6 inch deep hole in the ground. Would this pool actually ever deceive someone into thinking it was only 3 inches? And if so, does it ever matter if the hole is 3" or 6"? Probably not. The warning just doesn't make sense in that case. But if the pool is actually 6" deep but LOOKS far deeper, you could be deceived and that could be a problem if you decide to dive into it. The warning now makes sense and is important.

Thus, the pool is shallow and the adverb is useful only if it appears deeper than that. The pool is shallower than it appears.

 

[ConstipatedVigilante]

Originally posted by: skyking
As written, I would assume a headfirst dive into that pool would break my neck.

Edit: To elaborate further, the sentence as written means "The pool deceives you into thinking it's deep, but it's shallow." Saying "deceptively shallow" still means it's shallow - it just means it's deceptive.

 

[skyking]

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN

Originally posted by: jonks

Check it:

http://www.esldesk.com/grammar/adverbs.htm
My brother is completely fearless. ('completely' modifies adjective 'fearless')

I've read that adverbs are "syntactically free" meaning they can be placed almost anywhere in a sentence. Figuring out what is being modified can sure lead to confusion.

As the 'expert group' recommends, the best route would be to reformulate the sentence to avoid confusion.

This grammatical error actually has a name, a squinting modifier, where an adverb is placed between a verb and an adjective. The normal resolution for this would be to assume that the adverb can be removed from the sentence and the sentence still has the same basic meaning. So, in this case we would assume that the pool is shallow. But in any case, the sentence as it stands is grammatically incorrect and can not be understood.
This is why grammar is important.

Nice post, that clarifies the problem.

 

[ruu]

Originally posted by: MrPickins

Originally posted by: ruu

Originally posted by: MrPickins
No:

My brother is completely fearless. -> My brother is fearless.

The pool is deceptively shallow. -> The pool is shallow.

Modifying the adjective doesn't negate it.

True, but "to deceive" implies a negation of what is being presented. Therefore, I don't think it's a stretch to assume the opposite.

"completely," on the other hand, is just a reinforcement of the word it modifies.

I can see your point, but I have always heard the word "deceptively" used in the manner I noted above. Instead of negating the adjective, it reinforces it, while stating that the property of the adjective may go unnoticed.

Ah, I see what you mean. I guess in a situation where the adjective is even more so than it seems, I would expect the rest of the sentence to be more complex and a testament to that. Short sentences, on the other hand, I automatically negate.

For example:

"She's deceptively nice."

I would take that to mean that she's actually batshit and will eat your babies given the first opportunity.

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: dullard
Remove the word 'deceptively' and you still should have a correct sentence. You should always be able to remove adverbs and adjectives and still have the true meaning. The adverbs and adjectives just make the true meaning more clear or are there just to make the sentence more pleasant.

The pool is shallow.

That is the ultimate truth. There isn't much water there.

Now, we have to ask what is the deception? Lets say the pool is a 6 inch deep hole in the ground. Would this pool actually ever deceive someone into thinking it was only 3 inches? And if so, does it ever matter if the hole is 3" or 6"? Probably not. The warning just doesn't make sense in that case. But if the pool is actually 6" deep but LOOKS far deeper, you could be deceived and that could be a problem if you decide to dive into it. The warning now makes sense and is important.

Thus, the pool is shallow and the adverb is useful only if it appears deeper than that. The pool is shallower than it appears.

Counter-argument: hardly.

"The pool is hardly shallow."

Take away hardly

"The pool is shallow"

Completely different meaning.

 

[CRXican]

you "shallow" people are wacky

 

[CRXican]

you "shallow" people are wacky

 

[MrPickins]

Originally posted by: ruu

Originally posted by: MrPickins

Originally posted by: ruu

Originally posted by: MrPickins
No:

My brother is completely fearless. -> My brother is fearless.

The pool is deceptively shallow. -> The pool is shallow.

Modifying the adjective doesn't negate it.

True, but "to deceive" implies a negation of what is being presented. Therefore, I don't think it's a stretch to assume the opposite.

"completely," on the other hand, is just a reinforcement of the word it modifies.

I can see your point, but I have always heard the word "deceptively" used in the manner I noted above. Instead of negating the adjective, it reinforces it, while stating that the property of the adjective may go unnoticed.

Ah, I see what you mean. I guess in a situation where the adjective is even more so than it seems, I would expect the rest of the sentence to be more complex and a testament to that. Short sentences, on the other hand, I automatically negate.

For example:

"She's deceptively nice."

I would take that to mean that she's actually batshit and will eat your babies given the first opportunity.

Great counterpoint.

 

[mugs]

The pool is deceptively shallow = it's shallower than it appears to be
The pool looks deceptively shallow = it's deeper than it appears to be

 

[Garet Jax]

Originally posted by: MrPickins

Originally posted by: Garet Jax

Originally posted by: MrPickins
Smogzinn has it right:

The pool is (deceptively) shallow.
The pool is shallow, but it looks deep.

Fixed.

So you agree with me? That didn't really need fixing.

I guess I don't agree with you.

shallow != deceptively shallow

While they are both shallow one is clearly shallow while the other is not.

 

[Garet Jax]

This thread is deceptively stupid.

While the thread seems to be intelligent, in reality it is not.

 

[Leafy]

The pool is deceptively shallow - deceptively is modifying shallow, which is modifying the actual state of the pool. It doesn't negate, it just undermines. It could be rephrased strictly as The pool is shallow - deceptively so., and loosely as You would think it was deeper, but it's actually shallow.

The pool looks deceptively shallow - deceptively is modifying shallow, which is modifying the appearance of the pool relative to the viewer. deceptively is not modifying the actual depth of the pool, but the speaker's impression, deceived as it is, of the depth. It could be rephrased strictly as The pool is deep, but looks deceptively shallow., and loosely as The pool is deep, but it looks to me like it's shallow

*sigh* People are terrible at reading comprehension.

The confusion arises from you idiots being idiots and using is to mean that the speaker is conveying their view of the pool's depth and the actual depth at the same time, which it's not.

 

[MrPickins]

Originally posted by: Garet Jax

Originally posted by: MrPickins

Originally posted by: Garet Jax

Originally posted by: MrPickins
Smogzinn has it right:

The pool is (deceptively) shallow.
The pool is shallow, but it looks deep.

Fixed.

So you agree with me? That didn't really need fixing.

I guess I don't agree with you.

shallow != deceptively shallow

While they are both shallow one is clearly shallow while the other is not.

I was just showing that taking the adverb out of the sentence didn't change its overall meaning. We both agree. :thumbsup:

 

[herm0016]

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN

Originally posted by: jonks
Strong majority voice thus far for 'shallower'. Consider this argument for 'deeper':

p1: "I'm going to hike up my pants and walk across that stream. It aint but a foot or so deep."
p2: "I wouldn't recommend that friend, the water is deceptively shallow, you'll be in over your head by midstream."

The experts that read this sentence and could not agree do not seem to be very expert at English. They seem to be forgetting that shallow in these sentence is not a verb.

Here is a breakdown of the sentence.

The pool = subject

is = the verb

deceptively = adverb

shallow = adjective

So, deceptively is modifying the word IS not SHALLOW.
What IS the pool? Shallow.
So what is deceptive about the pool? That it IS shallow instead of appearing shallow.
Therefore, the pool actually is shallow, but it deceives by not appearing that way.

agreed. good explanation.