The Official Xbox One Thread

[cmdrdredd]

You're right! You can loan your games to a friend and play with him... oh wait. Can't do that. You can install your games to your HDD and never use the disc again... oh wait. Can't do that either. But those aren't consumer friendly, because Sony didn't do them.

Adding tons of Kinect features, all of which that can be turned off... nope, that is bad too.

So, besides the "omg no used games!!!! omg I am poor and buy a $400 system so I can 'save' $100 a year buying used games", "omg my internet might go out for more than a day once every 5 years", and the "omg what if MS shuts off their servers in 5 years, because that is likely that MS will go out of business or something stupid like that" arguments, there is really no issue other than gamers being whiny because the landscape is changing, again. PC gamers went through this a good while ago, and they whined, and then it ended up being better for everyone.

I can see Microsoft has you bought and paid for... I want control of my fucking game. I want to know that if I keep my console for 15 years it will still work with the disk inside. If you are too damn blind to see that there is no hope.


To whoever is saying it is hypocritical to love steam and hate xbone let me tell you a secret. DRM is not on every steam game. DRM is built into the xbone's system.

You can use steam offline...cannot use xbone offline more than a day. Many games on steam just authenticate once and never again.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

hope you realize this is exactly what you will be getting on ps4 as well.

It doesn't much matter to me; I haven't played online multiplayer on a console since doing a couple Forza races over a year ago. I do my online gaming via PC. But, yes, it's frustrating that companies are charging an access fee for multiplayer when that fee is not going towards the cost of dedicated servers that would explain the additional cost. It seems like a cash grab, and a rather petty one at that. At least PSN puts apps like Netflix outside the pay wall (part of the reason my 360 hasn't been plugged in in months; if only HBO Go would release a PS3 app).

 

[smackababy]

Not all games on steam are DRM. That is the difference. Every game on xbone is drm

Every single game that requires Steam is DRM. Steam is DRM. Any game that uses Steamworks has a form of DRM. Some have additional forms as well, and some don't. There are a few games that are available DRM free that are also available on Steam. Every game on every console has some form of DRM. The consoles themselves cannot run unsigned content, which is DRM. I guess the only exception is the Dreamcast, which is why you can burn any game onto a CD and play it.

 

[smackababy]

To whoever is saying it is hypocritical to love steam and hate xbone let me tell you a secret. DRM is not on every steam game. DRM is built into the xbone's system.

You can use steam offline...cannot use xbone offline more than a day. Many games on steam just authenticate once and never again.

You cannot activate and play a game that uses Steamworks without activating that game on Steam or using a crack. Requiring authentication of any type, any number of times, is DRM. I think you are confused.

Now, I am not saying it is hypocritical to hate the Xbox One and love Steam, but to hate it because of "DRM" is ignorant. If you hate it because of the constant requirement of being online, that is different.

 

[DaveSimmons]

Every single game that requires Steam is DRM. Steam is DRM.

Agreed, Steam is DRM. "No extra DRM" still means Steam itself must be running and authenticating you. And "offline mode" works for some people but not others.

I'd never argue that Steam is better than X1 in that way. Steam is even more "always on" for most people since you can't even go 24 hours without checking in.

A difference (to repeat myself) is Steam has competition for your PC's digital store, and if they start mistreating customers you can (often but not always) take your PC game business elsewhere.

Many games now use Steam as their DRM, but if Steam became too obnoxious the publishers could either switch to another method or just drop DRM. MS has a lock on publishing for the life of the X1.

Also, as we've agreed on above, people love Steam for the prices, and put up with Steam's DRM to get them. They accept the DRM tradeoff to get a game for $5 instead of $50.

If MS does end up having Steam-like prices people may learn to love MS' store too, aside from a bit of uneasiness over what will happen to their games and the X1 DRM servers when MS stops making X1 consoles in 10 years. Major Nelson saying "Don't worry be happy" isn't the same as a promise from MS.

 

[jrphoenix]

There are 3 key differences: Fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.

1. Steam has a track record, we know what to expect.

2. Steam has awesome sales, so for many of us the bulk of our library was picked up at a steep discount.

3. (Most important to me): Steam does not have a monopoly on PC game sales. There is competition from many other sources to keep them honest.

So liking Steam and not trusting MS with a zero-competition monopoly is not hypocritical.

Edit: and from past history, MS has a tendency to get arrogant and lazy once they've "won" a battle. See for example the history of their Internet Explorer and Media Player development. Once they win, they lose interest until someone shows up to compete with them again. IE rotted for years until Firefox gained market share and made MS start competing again.

I see what you are saying now that STEAM has been around for years.

1. Every company / business model has to start somewhere. We all heard the exact same arguments (anti-steam) when valve first rolled out their service. If it were not for service like STEAM / D to D... I honestly don't think we would have any meaningful gaming on the PC due to rampant piracy.

2. This is too early to judge. When STEAM first rolled out there were not awesome sales (not even every publisher was there). It took time to get to where it is now. MS may have a strategy of free DLC (because of charges for used games) or large sales.. we can't judge the 360 model to evaluate the xbox one system.

3. MS doesn't have a monopoly either, there is a Wii & PS4. I get what you are saying here. I honestly believe that PS will rollout their DRM direct download service after MS takes a beating. The competition will be between the two platforms.

 

[KaOTiK]

Actually to clear one thing up. Steam is simply a client at its most basic level. You can purchase games on Steam that do not require Steam to be running at all to play. You can launch the game from its exe with Steam closed and the game will play. There is a list of games (can't remember where, I think the GOG forums funny enough has the list) are truly 100% DRM free on Steam.

In 99% of the cases though, yes a game makes use of the Steam DRM.

 

[cmdrdredd]

You cannot activate and play a game that uses Steamworks without activating that game on Steam or using a crack. Requiring authentication of any type, any number of times, is DRM. I think you are confused.

Now, I am not saying it is hypocritical to hate the Xbox One and love Steam, but to hate it because of "DRM" is ignorant. If you hate it because of the constant requirement of being online, that is different.

There are games on Steam that run without steam.

http://www.gog.com/forum/general/list_of_drmfree_games_on_steam/page1

It's a large list and that's as of September 2012

 

[cmdrdredd]

Agreed, Steam is DRM. "No extra DRM" still means Steam itself must be running and authenticating you. And "offline mode" works for some people but not others.

I'd never argue that Steam is better than X1 in that way. Steam is even more "always on" for most people since you can't even go 24 hours without checking in.

A difference (to repeat myself) is Steam has competition for your PC's digital store, and if they start mistreating customers you can (often but not always) take your PC game business elsewhere.

Many games now use Steam as their DRM, but if Steam became too obnoxious the publishers could either switch to another method or just drop DRM. MS has a lock on publishing for the life of the X1.

Also, as we've agreed on above, people love Steam for the prices, and put up with Steam's DRM to get them. They accept the DRM tradeoff to get a game for $5 instead of $50.

If MS does end up having Steam-like prices people may learn to love MS' store too, aside from a bit of uneasiness over what will happen to their games and the X1 DRM servers when MS stops making X1 consoles in 10 years. Major Nelson saying "Don't worry be happy" isn't the same as a promise from MS.

For the record... Steam allows you to use offline mode for TWO WEEKS. Which is way more than 24 hours. You are right that it's not a monopoly and you don't have to use steam at all really.

http://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/1/828937979095845728/

I see what you are saying now that STEAM has been around for years.

1. Every company / business model has to start somewhere. We all heard the exact same arguments (anti-steam) when valve first rolled out their service. If it were not for service like STEAM / D to D... I honestly don't think we would have any meaningful gaming on the PC due to rampant piracy.

2. This is too early to judge. When STEAM first rolled out there were not awesome sales (not even every publisher was there). It took time to get to where it is now. MS may have a strategy of free DLC (because of charges for used games) or large sales.. we can't judge the 360 model to evaluate the xbox one system.

3. MS doesn't have a monopoly either, there is a Wii & PS4. I get what you are saying here. I honestly believe that PS will rollout their DRM direct download service after MS takes a beating. The competition will be between the two platforms.

3) The difference is on PS4, if you have the disk the only authentication you need is to have the disk in the drive. On the Xbone you need to check in every 24 hours and likely authenticate the disk online. Sony already does day one digital downloads on PS3. If you don't wanna get the disk you can buy and download it from PSN. The only authentication you need is your PSN account.

 

[purbeast0]

<-- has never used steam and probably never will.

i feel like such an outsider

 

[smackababy]

Actually to clear one thing up. Steam is simply a client at its most basic level. You can purchase games on Steam that do not require Steam to be running at all to play. You can launch the game from its exe with Steam closed and the game will play. There is a list of games (can't remember where, I think the GOG forums funny enough has the list) are truly 100% DRM free on Steam.

In 99% of the cases though, yes a game makes use of the Steam DRM.

I was unaware there were games like that. As far as I could tell Steam was required to be running to run any of the games purchased on there.

 

[Skel]

The pro-X1 complaint was: why do we like Steam but not like MS' store, and how could you not like MS without being a hypocrite?

The answers were that we like Steams' sales and policies better, and trust Steam more than MS because Steam has competition. Pointing out that the PS4 and iOS app stores are walled gardens too doesn't contradict liking Steam more than MS's store.

Fair enough, I missed that point. I got confused by the arguments you were putting out on why St. Steam is a better service than the upcoming Xbox One Store. Personally I think you can love St. Steam (who wouldn't??) and not like the upcoming Xbox One Store as they're really apples and oranges. PC Gaming is a completely different beast than console, that's one of the reasons it has it's own forums.

 

[AMDZen]

Torchlight is 100% free on GOG right now with no DRM

 

[smackababy]

For the record... Steam allows you to use offline mode for TWO WEEKS. Which is way more than 24 hours. You are right that it's not a monopoly and you don't have to use steam at all really.

http://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/1/828937979095845728/

The problem is Steam's offline mode is extremely spotty. People always complain about how it doesn't work properly. But, yes, it has a better policy than MS's current policy. Either could change though.

3) The difference is on PS4, if you have the disk the only authentication you need is to have the disk in the drive. On the Xbone you need to check in every 24 hours and likely authenticate the disk online. Sony already does day one digital downloads on PS3. If you don't wanna get the disk you can buy and download it from PSN. The only authentication you need is your PSN account.

With the Xbox One, it is believed the disc authenticates automatically and works just like you purchased the game DD. The disc is only an easy content delivery device and not something other than that. They require some authentication, because I could just install a game and give it away without ever registering it, thus "pirating" in a way. PC gaming went through this already.

 

[cmdrdredd]

The problem is Steam's offline mode is extremely spotty. People always complain about how it doesn't work properly. But, yes, it has a better policy than MS's current policy. Either could change though.


With the Xbox One, it is believed the disc authenticates automatically and works just like you purchased the game DD. The disc is only an easy content delivery device and not something other than that. They require some authentication, because I could just install a game and give it away without ever registering it, thus "pirating" in a way. PC gaming went through this already.

PS4 don't need to check in...all I need is the disk. The disk is enough to say to the system "play the game".

I've used Steam's offline mode and it has always worked for me. I have not found any of the problems people seem to have with steam.

 

[Skel]

PS4 don't need to check in...all I need is the disk. The disk is enough to say to the system "play the game".

I've used Steam's offline mode and it has always worked for me. I have not found any of the problems people seem to have with steam.

How does the PS4 handle Digital copies of the game? Wouldn't that need to call somewhere to verify that the game wasn't just copied over from a thumb drive?

 

[Tweak155]

How does the PS4 handle Digital copies of the game? Wouldn't that need to call somewhere to verify that the game wasn't just copied over from a thumb drive?

Tied to PSN+ account I believe.

EDIT:

Nvm I see what you meant. Not sure.

 

[cmdrdredd]

How does the PS4 handle Digital copies of the game? Wouldn't that need to call somewhere to verify that the game wasn't just copied over from a thumb drive?

You need your PSN account logged in. Just like the PS3. My thing is if I have the disk I should never need to check or verify. It should just play. If I bring my console to a hotel and they don't offer free internet there, I will be able to use the system with the disk if I want.

 

[Tweak155]

You need your PSN account logged in. Just like the PS3. My thing is if I have the disk I should never need to check or verify. It should just play. If I bring my console to a hotel and they don't offer free internet there, I will be able to use the system with the disk if I want.

I'm not familiar with PSN accounts like I am XBL - can you be logged into your PSN account on the console itself without actually being online? I know obviously at least the first login would require internet...

 

[smackababy]

I'm not familiar with PSN accounts like I am XBL - can you be logged into your PSN account on the console itself without actually being online? I know obviously at least the first login would require internet...

Last time I used my PS3, the system was broken. You could download the game on any PS3, and even delete that account, and the game or DLC would still be available for everyone that used that system. I did this with the SF4 DLC and it worked with games purchased on PSN as well from what I read.

Assuming they got it fixed, you have to authenticate when you purchased and it probably authenticates each time you get online. So, in theory, you could buy and never log back in to reauthenticate. I am not sure if there was a time limit though.

 

[cmdrdredd]

I'm not familiar with PSN accounts like I am XBL - can you be logged into your PSN account on the console itself without actually being online? I know obviously at least the first login would require internet...

I turned on my PS3 with the network cable unplugged and I launched my digital copy of Street Fighter 2 Turbo just now. I had to select which PSN account I was using (I have two, one for Japanese region to get some of their demos).

If I log in to another account and try to use content it works too.

 

[smackababy]

PS4 don't need to check in...all I need is the disk. The disk is enough to say to the system "play the game".

I've used Steam's offline mode and it has always worked for me. I have not found any of the problems people seem to have with steam.

And that is a valid concern, but it doesn't apply to a lot of people. Being able to connect every 24 hours isn't a huge concern for most people who would be purchasing a console. Yes, that does impose some limitations, but we don't know exactly what happens if you don't check in yet. Major Nelson said in some interview quoted today it was a "Must connect or you're a brick" type of situation, but I don't think we will know until someone gets one and doesn't connect for 24 hours or MS gives a real, clear answer.

 

[cmdrdredd]

And that is a valid concern, but it doesn't apply to a lot of people. Being able to connect every 24 hours isn't a huge concern for most people who would be purchasing a console. Yes, that does impose some limitations, but we don't know exactly what happens if you don't check in yet. Major Nelson said in some interview quoted today it was a "Must connect or you're a brick" type of situation, but I don't think we will know until someone gets one and doesn't connect for 24 hours or MS gives a real, clear answer.

It's not at home where it matters. It's when I'm away from home and happen to bring my system (which I sometimes do).

 

[BoberFett]

But the problem is you are liking Steam because of their aggressive pricing. That is fair. You put up with the DRM because the value of getting cheaper games. But disliking MS because they might not have sales on a platform not yet introduced is kind of silly. And MS doesn't set the prices anyway, publishers do. And I can tell you this, the market will dictate how long a game sells for $60. The reason COD goes for $60 for like 6+ months is because it sells. It is the same on PC. The hope is that being able to cut out the B&Ms and the physical costs of moving the games will lead to pricing being aggressively dropped. In fact, publishers would make a killing by just selling for whatever it is they currently make selling to B&M. Gamestop and the like would have a fit, but who cares? If every new game on Xbox One DD was $40 or whatever new, people would eat that up. Sadly, publishers aren't as forward thinking as forum posters and will probably have games for $60 regardless of the savings and see it as profit, and gamers will still buy them.

You are painfully ignorant.

http://gamepolitics.com/2011/10/26/...t-developers-handle-game-pricing#.UcDDydjNm2M

 

[Skel]

You need your PSN account logged in. Just like the PS3. My thing is if I have the disk I should never need to check or verify. It should just play. If I bring my console to a hotel and they don't offer free internet there, I will be able to use the system with the disk if I want.

I honestly don't disagree with you. I really think that MS should have forked the physical disk from the digital version this gen and then rolled out the all or nothing version next gen, they'd have had an entire gen to train it's users to go digital. I also see that in MS' eyes they're all now digital versions and the physical disk has become a delivery system than a full version. Maybe that's why I'm not as in arms about what they're doing as a lot of people around here. I really think they made a mistake about rushing it, not the direction.

I don't know much about how the PS3/4 does it's thing on verification of rights, which it has to have. ALL consoles have it in one form or another. I would assume that you have to verify your account to Sony when you purchase it, and that copies something into the device that prevents you from just pulling it via thumb and installing it on a different device/account. Can you go to your friends house, log in and install the game? When you leave can your friend play it? Can you sell or share digital copies of the games? I should point out I honestly want to know, and not attempting to make MS seem better than they are.