The Official Xbox One Thread

[smackababy]

Xbox One in stock at Amazon right now, seems to have been for at least a couple of hours now.

They've been coming in and out of stock all day. Either Amazon got a new shipment, or returned ones are showing back up and are ready for processing. Either way, good for people who want one that didn't get in on the 22nd.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Cool that's good to know.

In an interview he joked about it. He said people asked him "why do you want us to pay for music unlimited and won't let us play MP3 files?" He said that isn't what happened and thought it was funny that people jumped to that conclusion. They had a brand new OS with all brand new software and they needed to prioritize what things to focus on first. It was decided by the group of engineers and the design team to make sure all the gaming aspects were working on day one. They wanted online play, day one digital from PSN, the PSN infrastructure, party chat, streaming through ustream and twitter, game DVR uploading to social media, and remote play to the vita worked. After that they would go back and determine what things they should work on next. He also mentioned that what seems easy from the outside, and that people say "but you can do it on PS3", isn't always so easy for the software programmers and engineers trying to make it work. He used the example of changing your PSN name and how you can't do it. He said it's not like there's an excell spreadsheet you can edit and bam, name changed. It's integrated into PSN differently and it's something the engineers haven't found an easy solution to.

I'd imagine Microsoft goes through similar things with what features to work on and prioritize. Not everything on the XB1 works on day one and there's still some work to be done to tighten up everything and add new features. Like twitch streaming.

They've been coming in and out of stock all day. Either Amazon got a new shipment, or returned ones are showing back up and are ready for processing. Either way, good for people who want one that didn't get in on the 22nd.

Yeah I told a few friends of mine who were looking for a new console. Dunno if they'll buy one but at least they have a heads up.

 

[smackababy]

He used the example of changing your PSN name and how you can't do it. He said it's not like there's an excell spreadsheet you can edit and bam, name changed. It's integrated into PSN differently and it's something the engineers haven't found an easy solution to..

Which makes absolutely zero sense. Everything else he has said should be discredited by this. A unique identifier is somehow incorporated so deep into the system, you can't change it? What?

And yes, the is an "excel" sheet; it's called a database.

Here is a simple solution: assign everyone a unique identification code and have everything use that rather than the display name. Now, instead of displaying that code, display the PSN name. Boom, code never changes, name can be whatever. That literally took me 3 seconds to "figure out".

 

[cmdrdredd]

Which makes absolutely zero sense. Everything else he has said should be discredited by this. A unique identifier is somehow incorporated so deep into the system, you can't change it? What?

And yes, the is an "excel" sheet; it's called a database.

Here is a simple solution: assign everyone a unique identification code and have everything use that rather than the display name. Now, instead of displaying that code, display the PSN name. Boom, code never changes, name can be whatever. That literally took me 3 seconds to "figure out".

It's actually not, it's a unique number linked to the name and the name can't be changed or it unlinks. They built it withought thinking about this. Just like you can't make a child account or whatever they call it on PSN, a full access adult account. You need to create a new one. He even apologized for this and said he feels sorry for people who go through this when they may have started that account when they were 15 and now are 19 and want to get access to everything but cannot without starting over.

You're talking as if you've looked at the code just as those who said removing the 24hour check in and Kinect requirement was simple.

 

[smackababy]

It's actually not, it's a unique number linked to the name and the name can't be changed or it unlinks.

You're talking as if you've looked at the code just as those who said removing the 24hour check in and Kinect requirement was simple.

That makes no sense though. If it is a unique number linked to something, how can the link not be changed? The name is stored somewhere, the number is stored somewhere; that somewhere is a database table. Something is linking X and Y; and if it so incredibly complicated that you can't change one without destroying the link, that is silly.

If they are using the unique number in code, just the link has to change. If they are using the name, switch it to the unique number already being generated.

I understand what he was trying to say, but his example either highlights his misunderstand of problem they are having or the incompetence of Sony developers.

 

[cmdrdredd]

That makes no sense though. If it is a unique number linked to something, how can the link not be changed? The name is stored somewhere, the number is stored somewhere; that somewhere is a database table. Something is linking X and Y; and if it so incredibly complicated that you can't change one without destroying the link, that is silly.

If they are using the unique number in code, just the link has to change. If they are using the name, switch it to the unique number already being generated.

I understand what he was trying to say, but his example either highlights his misunderstand of problem they are having or the incompetence of Sony developers.

He isn't a programmer but he tried to make people understand that you cannot just erase the name and input a new one. They never designed it in a way that makes it easy. It's not beyond hope but all he could do was apologize.

 

[smackababy]

Just like you can't make a child account or whatever they call it on PSN, a full access adult account. You need to create a new one. He even apologized for this and said he feels sorry for people who go through this when they may have started that account when they were 15 and now are 19 and want to get access to everything but cannot without starting over.

Which also makes zero sense. There has to be some sort of flag that denotes the account as a child account. A simple batch script run on their database could take their birth date (which is has to be stored somewhere as well, otherwise how do they know it is a child account), and remove that flag for every account over 18. I mean come on...

Perhaps the system was actually designed in such a moronic way nothing can be altered with permanently damaging all other information touching it; but that just highlights how awful Sony developers are. I'd rather not believe that. However, they did have their database hacked by a SQL injection...

 

[cmdrdredd]

Which also makes zero sense. There has to be some sort of flag that denotes the account as a child account. A simple batch script run on their database could take their birth date (which is has to be stored somewhere as well, otherwise how do they know it is a child account), and remove that flag for every account over 18. I mean come on...

Perhaps the system was actually designed in such a moronic way nothing can be altered with permanently damaging all other information touching it; but that just highlights how awful Sony developers are. I'd rather not believe that. However, they did have their database hacked by a SQL injection...

Well, when they were starting they didn't anticipate these things becoming a problem later I guess. Maybe they just did it the easiest way for them but it made it inconvenient in the long run. It's not the developers that touch the games, just the ones who designed the core of how PSN handles the accounts. I've always held the belief that the Japanese were generally pretty incompetent when it comes to network and account infrastructure. I found the same issues with Final Fantasy XI when I played it. It was a nightmare if you wanted to change the simplest things with an account.

 

[sze5003]

Sounds more like procedural programming rather than object oriented, pretty old school design at the time that it was created that it would just cause lots of issues if changed. Not to mention who knows who worked on it, say they do change it well how do you know it won't break anything else unknowingly.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Ok so I found this article. People claim that some XB1 games are scaled by the system to 1080p and have a filter applied that adds some type of AA and crushes the blacks. Specifically they mention Killer Instinct. They claim this because when they press the xbox guide button there is a split second where the image brightens and they make the assumption that whatever filter is applied, is removed. They also claim that setting the system to 720p fixes this "issue". Now...I'll post the link to the article and a couple comparison shots. I must say though that in the game when I set it to 1080p or 720p it looks exactly the same except for 720p having a few more jaggies on the image. There is no washed out look at 720p and there is no black crush at 1080p. Lucky for me I know how to calibrate my TV properly and know how to adjust the black level for my TV properly. I know many of you are playing KI and also have very good HT setups. Is this BS like I think it is because I cannot reproduce this black crush unless I set RGB to full on the XB1 settings and set my black level on the TV to low purposely darkening the image while also setting my contrast way down and the brightness of the TV way down. HDMI Black level has the most dramatic darkening effect. The image I get with the settings I use on my TV is somewhere in between the two images posted below. To me it appears that someone has no clue how to set up their display for the best image.

http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/171884-xbox-ones-1080p-upscaling-makes-games-look-worse

These are screen grabs from a capture device. The top images are supposedly what is seen at 1080p and the bottom is 720p (or when you press the xbox guide button and the filter is removed).

 

[ImpulsE69]

Does it flip through resolutions for some reason if it can't determine the correct one right away?

Also, unless I'm misunderstanding what you are saying, I can definitely see the black level difference in the two (720 not being as deep and appearing more washed out).

And on that note....isn't the filter part of the overlay?

 

[cmdrdredd]

Does it flip through resolutions for some reason if it can't determine the correct one right away?

Also, unless I'm misunderstanding what you are saying, I can definitely see the black level difference in the two (720 not being as deep and appearing more washed out).

And on that note....isn't the filter part of the overlay?

What I'm contesting is that there is any type of filter at all. With my set up I have zero black crush, and zero washed out look. The claim is that at 1080p the system looks like the top image, at 720p it looks like the bottom. I see the same image either way except 720p has a bit more jaggies which I believe is a byproduct of smaller pixel sizes at 1080p.

The console doesn't flip resolutions. I have it set to 1080p and my TV does not lose the signal, then come back at a different resolution. The PS3 would do this. The XMB would be 1080p then I play a game and the screen would flash then come back up at 720p. This doesn't happen on my XB1, it stays at 1080p.

I don't have a way to capture the image. I could take a picture of the screen but it wouldn't be a good representation of the image quality.

 

[Anteaus]

Using Full range RGB can crush blacks also. My TV supports it but I don't use it because it hurts image quality. Results may vary I guess.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Using Full range RGB can crush blacks also. My TV supports it but I don't use it because it hurts image quality. Results may vary I guess.

Yes and I believe this is someone who is using settings that are detrimental to the image to begin with and this particular title simply highlights them.

 

[railven]

Woof, gonna say right now I'd take the crushed blacks if just for the AA application.

On the issue of the article, the game is 720p native so setting it to output 1080p would introduce some image manipulation, to what level, assuming their capture device is not altering the picture at any level (and if it is altering both pictures equally) there is clearly some foul play on the blacks.

I can't say I've noticed this issue, but I'm not really setting my system to 720p and at this point seeing what the alternative is, I'll take the crushed blacks over the jaggies.

EDIT: You can even see it crushing the whites too, Jago has some "HDR Bloom" going on in the character selection screen that is missing from the 720p capture. But again, woof, them jaggies.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Woof, gonna say right now I'd take the crushed blacks if just for the AA application.

On the issue of the article, the game is 720p native so setting it to output 1080p would introduce some image manipulation, to what level, assuming their capture device is not altering the picture at any level (and if it is altering both pictures equally) there is clearly some foul play on the blacks.

I can't say I've noticed this issue, but I'm not really setting my system to 720p and at this point seeing what the alternative is, I'll take the crushed blacks over the jaggies.

EDIT: You can even see it crushing the whites too, Jago has some "HDR Bloom" going on in the character selection screen that is missing from the 720p capture. But again, woof, them jaggies.

The bloom is supposed to be there, I see it too on my TV but my blacks are not even close to crushed and the image is not close to being washed out. I see something between these shots and it looks better than either of their examples. It is dark where it should be and light where it should be and you can actually pick out the levels of grey. Both in 720p and 1080p.

 

[railven]

The bloom is supposed to be there, I see it too on my TV but my blacks are not even close to crushed and the image is not close to being washed out. I see something between these shots and it looks better than either of their examples. It is dark where it should be and light where it should be and you can actually pick out the levels of grey. Both in 720p and 1080p.

Well I'll assume you calibrated your TV, which introduces image manipulation. I can't verify that this article is intentionally manipulating the images to prove a point, but I'd give them the benefit of the doubt both images are captured with zero manipulation from their end or equal manipulation from their end.

What we see on our TV's is going to vary due to our different levels of calibration and subjective preference.

If this article is not messing with the images, there is clearly something happening when the console upscales from 720p to 1080p.

Now, I'd love it if they did a follow up and captured another non-1080p game such as Dead Rising 3 (which is also said to have the crushed blacks) and NFS: Rivals (which is a 1080p) game and see what each shows.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Well I'll assume you calibrated your TV, which introduces image manipulation. I can't verify that this article is intentionally manipulating the images to prove a point, but I'd give them the benefit of the doubt both images are captured with zero manipulation from their end or equal manipulation from their end.

What we see on our TV's is going to vary due to our different levels of calibration and subjective preference.

If this article is not messing with the images, there is clearly something happening when the console upscales from 720p to 1080p.

Now, I'd love it if they did a follow up and captured another non-1080p game such as Dead Rising 3 (which is also said to have the crushed blacks) and NFS: Rivals (which is a 1080p) game and see what each shows.

The thing I don't get is if I calibrate my TV and then don't get crushed blacks why do they claim to have a TV that shows crushed blacks and blame it on the console? They also claim the image changes when they set the console to 720p but I don't get any image changes, except as I noted the jaggies. So I need someone with a good setup to tell me if their image is like the ones I posted or not.

 

[railven]

The point I'm making is, if I calibrate my TV and then don't get crushed blacks why do they claim to have a TV that shows crushed blacks and blame it on the console?

These captures are by passing the TV, which shows there is an issue. You can calibrate the TV to "fix" it to a level you find acceptable.

Again, if they are capturing before the final image hits a TV, what you see on the TV is irrelevant and something is happening between the console, the capture device, and the display. I'm assuming they aren't tinkering at the capture device so the issue is at the console.

EDIT to your edit:

The thing I don't get is if I calibrate my TV and then don't get crushed blacks why do they claim to have a TV that shows crushed blacks and blame it on the console? They also claim the image changes when they set the console to 720p but I don't get any image changes, except as I noted the jaggies. So I need someone with a good setup to tell me if their image is like the ones I posted or not.

I don't know what else to say. Your TV is your TV and is setup to your liking. Same with mine. But this article is throwing the TVs out. These images clearly show something is happening. Why? That's the question to ask. Why I said throw in DR3 and Rivals, see if it shows up on other games that require upscaling or not.

EDIT #2: Take a picture of your TV, in the dark with no flash. Probably the best one can do to present their setup. I've yet to set the Xbone to 720p, so I can't say I've even noticed this issue personally.

 

[cmdrdredd]

No, my TV is calibrated to proper color space. This isn't me setting the gamma up and turning the backlight higher to compensate. This is a TV that was setup to have accurate color, whites, and blacks. As accurate as a Pioneer Kuro could be.

I know other people have calibrated stuff and again I'm not talking about forcing the image to be brighter. I'm talking about making the colors and everything accurate. I want to know if their picture shows these problems.

Again when you change to 720 they claim the brightness of the image changes. My TV doesn't show ANY change. That right there sets off my BS filter.

The people in the thread linked from the article say it happens on their TV. Not from a capture device. They claim it's happening on all devices. My experience says they are liars or have improperly setup stuff. Even Eurogamer admitted their capture device was setup wrong when they did the BF4 compairison so I don't always trust capture devices to have an unchanged image.

 

[railven]

No, my TV is calibrated to proper color space. This isn't me setting the gama up and turning the backlight higher. This is a TV that was setup to have accurate color, whites, and blacks. As accurate as a Pioneer Kuro could be.

Again, I can't explain why your specific setup isn't showing this. And I'm not assuming your setup is wrong.

But outside of your claim, this is not the first time I've heard/read about the crushed blacks/whites. There have been lots of people posting their own findings and experiments.

End of the day, if the capture device is not mucking things up, there is a clear issue at the console.

EDIT to your edit;

No, my TV is calibrated to proper color space. This isn't me setting the gamma up and turning the backlight higher to compensate. This is a TV that was setup to have accurate color, whites, and blacks. As accurate as a Pioneer Kuro could be.

I know other people have calibrated stuff and again I'm not talking about forcing the image to be brighter. I'm talking about making the colors and everything accurate. I want to know if their picture shows these problems.

Again when you change to 720 they claim the brightness of the image changes. My TV doesn't show ANY change. That right there sets off my BS filter.

That's all fine and dandy, but people are reporting issues and this is the first actual article I've seen capturing images directly from the console (actually the DF BF4 footage also showed crushed blacks and that was setup directly captured from the console). If you want to call BS, by all means.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Again, I can't explain why your specific setup isn't showing this. And I'm not assuming your setup is wrong.

But outside of your claim, this is not the first time I've heard/read about the crushed blacks/whites. There have been lots of people posting their own findings and experiments.

End of the day, if the capture device is not mucking things up, there is a clear issue at the console.

That's why I'm asking for people here to post what they see on their setup. Cause I cannot reproduce any of these issues without purposely setting the wrong things. Further the claim that 720p changes the image also doesn't appear for me.

 

[railven]

That's why I'm asking for people here to post what they see on their setup. Cause I cannot reproduce any of these issues without purposely setting the wrong things. Further the claim that 720p changes the image also doesn't appear for me.

Fix the bold, because you already said it has more jaggies. I guess I can go downstairs and test my setup sooooo brb.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Fix the bold, because you already said it has more jaggies. I guess I can go downstairs and test my setup sooooo brb.

They claim the colors change. They do not. There's nothing to fix in my post.

Also I'm looking at the BF4 comparison right now and the XB1 doesn't have any crushed blacks in the screenshots I've viewed as compared to the PS4 or PC.

 

[railven]

Okay, I can confirm, there is a change. I went into the game, Xbone is setup to 1080p, I'm at the character selection screen, it looks like the first image with Jago.

I press the Xbox logo button, the game freezes for a second, note the screen doesn't go black, but you can see it's taking a "buffer" style image for the metro UI, and in that split second when that image is frozen it most certainly looks like the second screen showing Jago.

The jaggies and color wash are present.

Seeing it in action though, I will assume this is capturing a still image for a thumbnail like preview for the UI Metro, thus it is lower quality (probably hard coded into the game.)

But right now I can confirm I see both examples of the two images shown. I doubt I can time it fast enough to capture a picture with my phone, but it is clearly there.

I will now test by setting the console to 720p.