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The Official PS4 Thread

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KaOTiK said:
You forgot a huge reason why. The cell is a pain in the ass to program for. When devs have been able to truly tap into it, they have made the best looking games this gen on consoles (Uncharted series).

This time around, both consoles are using a well known platform for development that devs know very well and from the get go will get to take advantage from. It is going to mean differences this time, and not by a small number of games. You're probably going to see sharper textures, better effects, higher frame rates. It is going to be real easy to see who the lazy devs are this time around.
Click to expand...

I hope so. Right now it's all theoretical though, so all I can go off of is what happened in the past.
 
Vaux said:
Are we ever going to see what this damn PS4 even looks like?
Click to expand...
You've seen one half of it, the controller. The other half is this:

images


The entire purchased system is just a controller that uses a wi-fi signal to hit back at the Sony servers, everything is cloud based, the controller is just a dumb client! :biggrin:
 
KaOTiK said:
You forgot a huge reason why. The cell is a pain in the ass to program for. When devs have been able to truly tap into it, they have made the best looking games this gen on consoles (Uncharted series).

This time around, both consoles are using a well known platform for development that devs know very well and from the get go will get to take advantage from. It is going to mean differences this time, and not by a small number of games. You're probably going to see sharper textures, better effects, higher frame rates. It is going to be real easy to see who the lazy devs are this time around.
Click to expand...

Agreed. The PS4 and Xbone have the same CPU, and the same GPU architecture. It shouldn't be hard to take advantage of the extra shaders in the PS4.

I see three possible scenarios:

1. Multiplatform games are identical, as they will optimize around the Xbone
2. Multiplatform games will look identical, as they will optimize around the Xbone, but PS4 gameplay will be smoother because fps drops on the Xbone will be less severe or nonexistent on the faster PS4
3. Multiplatform games will look a little better on the PS4. Perhaps the equivalent of changing some settings from High to Very High on a PC game: not a generational gap but an appreciable one never-the-less.

I think scenario 2 is most likely, but I hope 3 is what happens.

Of course exclusive games will be optimized for the 50% more shaders and should stand out on the PS4.
 
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crisium said:
Agreed. The PS4 and Xbone have the same CPU, and the same GPU architecture. It shouldn't be hard to take advantage of the extra shaders in the PS4.

I see three possible scenarios:

1. Multiplatform games are identical, as they will optimize around the Xbone
2. Multiplatform games will look identical, as they will optimize around the Xbone, but PS4 gameplay will be smoother because fps drops on the Xbone will be less severe or nonexistent on the faster PF4
3. Multiplatform games will look a little better on the PS4. Perhaps the equivalent of changing some settings from High to Very High on a PC game: not a generational gap but an appreciable one never-the-less.

I think scenario 2 is most likely, but I hope 3 is what happens.

Of courser exclusive games will be optimized for the 50% more shaders and should stand out on the PS4.
Click to expand...

What is the power of these new consoles as compared to a pc ? Are they equivalent to a current pc, one from say 2010, or are they more powerful than current pc ?
 
PS4 ~ AMD Radeon HD 7850

Xbone has 33% fewer shaders, and may be worse in other areas as well such as memory bandwidth, unless ESRAM is god like. There's also a rumour it will only have 16 ROPs (vs 32 for the PS4). If that rumour comes true, then the Xbone would be slower than a 7790.
 
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crisium said:
Agreed. The PS4 and Xbone have the same CPU, and the same GPU architecture. It shouldn't be hard to take advantage of the extra shaders in the PS4.

I see three possible scenarios:

1. Multiplatform games are identical, as they will optimize around the Xbone
2. Multiplatform games will look identical, as they will optimize around the Xbone, but PS4 gameplay will be smoother because fps drops on the Xbone will be less severe or nonexistent on the faster PS4
3. Multiplatform games will look a little better on the PS4. Perhaps the equivalent of changing some settings from High to Very High on a PC game: not a generational gap but an appreciable one never-the-less.

I think scenario 2 is most likely, but I hope 3 is what happens.

Of course exclusive games will be optimized for the 50% more shaders and should stand out on the PS4.
Click to expand...

Thing is with multiplatform games is that it's not the reason why someone picks one system over another. I don't think anyone bought an Xbox because games looked better than they did on the PS2 as you would have missed out on a ton of excellent PS2-exclusives. No one picked the PS3 believing the hype that was the Cell CPU and missing out on the better multiplayer the 360 had with Gears of War and Halo 3, plus timed exclusives like Bioshock. A normal person isn't going to notice more enemies on screen or a higher resolution, or a smoother framerate, because in order to actually make that comparison, you'd need to do that side-by-side with several games before you buy either system.

Perhaps word of mouth might spread that the PS4 is more powerful as a shortcut to that comparison, but what does that person do if they are interested in some of the 15 exclusive games that will only be on the Xbox One? "More power" will not help there and Microsoft absolutely has to know that. As a whole, Sony is still losing money while Microsoft is raking it in, it wouldn't take much for MS to pay a publisher for a major exclusive. It's as simple as saying "FIFA is now exclusive for the Xbox One" and watching the sales come in (repeat: that's an example, not a fact, that's too high a price for MS to pay).
 
crisium said:
1. Multiplatform games are identical, as they will optimize around the Xbone
2. Multiplatform games will look identical, as they will optimize around the Xbone, but PS4 gameplay will be smoother because fps drops on the Xbone will be less severe or nonexistent on the faster PS4
3. Multiplatform games will look a little better on the PS4. Perhaps the equivalent of changing some settings from High to Very High on a PC game: not a generational gap but an appreciable one never-the-less.
Click to expand...

I think a lot of it will come down to effort vs. benefit, and that will depend a lot on the game itself. Are there really any noticeable graphic increases that can be done? ...and by noticeable, I don't mean stuff like anti-aliasing. PC gamers (myself included) tend to notice aliasing, but we also sit a foot away from our screens. I've been amazed at how bad some console games look when I moved up close because they look fine when you're sitting 10 feet away.

The biggest thing might be game textures. The X1 has lower memory bandwidth and only 32MB of high-speed ESRAM available. Maybe someone with a bit more intimate knowledge of game assets could shed some light on how much memory the textures in an average scene would require, but I would guess that it's higher than 32MB. Anyway, the point is that the developers may be able to provide higher-resolution textures on the PS4 without straining the bandwidth too much. The only problem is... will you notice this sitting so far away?

I have a background in non-gaming software development, and I would imagine that programming for the PS4 is easier than the X1 with the caveat that you're trying to use the ESRAM properly. Effective use of minimalistic resources is rarely a fun task as it sometimes requires tweaking to get it right.

Anyway, I think the overall point is that it will depend a lot on the developer and the aspects of the game. They may have a lot more leeway with in-house engines than if they use UE4 or something like that.
 
Aikouka said:
Effective use of minimalistic resources is rarely a fun task as it sometimes requires tweaking to get it right.
Click to expand...

What are you talking about? I thrive in such environments.

4096 x 4096 pixel world map on a NES with 2k ram and <= 1MB of ROM and no CPU time for heavy compression. Tiles aside, uncompressed name tables alone can be several megabytes and bigger than most ROMs allow.

:whiste:

I loved working on PS2 as well, keeping the bus busy with DMA chains and keeping all the parallel processors fed in what was basically a packet stuffing architecture. I enjoy abusing and exploiting esoteric and non standard hardware architectures.
 
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Frankly, I'm a bit excited that Housemarque is bringing us a spiritual successor to Super Stardust (as a PS4 exclusive)!

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/05/23/super-stardust-spiritual-successor-coming-to-playstation-4

I mostly just hope that being on the PS4 means that the game won't have slowdowns like it does on the PS3. 'Cause let me tell you... when you blow up a nuke on the last planet while playing the game in 3D, the game just STOPS. It just throws its hands up and says, "Let me catch my breath!!!"
 
Guesstimating for fun on PS4 cost!

$80 for the 8 core custom x86-64 APU
$40 for the Mother Board with wifi ext.
$55 for the 8GB DDR5
$25 for the 500gb HDD
$15 for the PSU
$30 for the custom casing
$35 for the bluray
$25 for the 1x controller
$20 for the PS4 camera's
$40 for Fabrication and Assembly
$5 for the packaging
$5 Shipping on Parts to assembly & to global distributors
$5 all Cables

Total $380 + Store profit + distributor Profit

$449-$499 Price point
 
videoclone said:
Guesstimating for fun on PS4 cost!

$80 for the 8 core custom x86-64 APU
$40 for the Mother Board with wifi ext.
$55 for the 8GB DDR5
$25 for the 500gb HDD
$15 for the PSU
$30 for the custom casing
$35 for the bluray
$25 for the 1x controller
$20 for the PS4 camera's
$40 for Fabrication and Assembly
$5 for the packaging
$5 Shipping on Parts to assembly & to global distributors
$5 all Cables

Total $380 + Store profit + distributor Profit

$449-$499 Price point
Click to expand...

I say both consoles starting at $400 and probably a higher GB version. I'd definitely spring for the larger hard drive version.
 
videoclone said:
Guesstimating for fun on PS4 cost!

$80 for the 8 core custom x86-64 APU
$40 for the Mother Board with wifi ext.
$55 for the 8GB DDR5
$25 for the 500gb HDD
$15 for the PSU
$30 for the custom casing
$35 for the bluray
$25 for the 1x controller
$20 for the PS4 camera's
$40 for Fabrication and Assembly
$5 for the packaging
$5 Shipping on Parts to assembly & to global distributors
$5 all Cables

Total $380 + Store profit + distributor Profit

$449-$499 Price point
Click to expand...

What about R&D, warranty costs, etc...? My guess is still $499, but Sony is taking a <$100 loss with the system. Profitable after 3 games or so.
 
Doppel said:
You've seen one half of it, the controller. The other half is this:

images


The entire purchased system is just a controller that uses a wi-fi signal to hit back at the Sony servers, everything is cloud based, the controller is just a dumb client! :biggrin:
Click to expand...

Whats that, the super-computer from willie wonka?
 
jpiniero said:
$400's going to be difficult for the One though (unsubsidized), unless MS reverses course on bundling Kinect.
Click to expand...

There's no way the Kinect isn't bundled. Absolutely none. And I don't see the purpose of the Eye if it's not bundled either. It'll never sell in high end numbers for developers to care about it, it'll be Kinect v1 all over again at a far smaller scale.
 
jpiniero said:
$400's going to be difficult for the One though (unsubsidized), unless MS reverses course on bundling Kinect.
Click to expand...

and the only way it will sell at $400 is if SONY and MS want to take a hit on the machines..

I think both SONY and MS are going to be selling these things at ZERO profit but ZERO expense to them.. so at the end of the day they may make ZERO profit on the sale of each console "even LOSE money on advertisement" but they will make back money in the long run.
 
videoclone said:
and the only way it will sell at $400 is if SONY and MS want to take a hit on the machines..

I think both SONY and MS are going to be selling these things at ZERO profit but ZERO expense to them.. so at the end of the day they may make ZERO profit on the sale of each console "even LOSE money on advertisement" but they will make back money in the long run.
Click to expand...

$499 single SKU with 500GB hard drive (for both) and call it a day. The two tier crap doesn't work when everyone expects WiFi and a decent sized hard drive. They will avoid the $599 price point which is pure kryptonite at this point. Everyone only remembers the higher price point.
 
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