The Multifaceted Tragedy of Vietnam

[Perknose]

1967. Sigh. I was still in High School, and still a robust Cold Warrior, opposing the "world-wide Communist monolith." In my senior year, we had to write a 10 page paper. I wrote 30 pages that ended, I kid you not, "America, right or wrong."

We were wrong, but in my callow ignorance of Vietnamese history, I did not know that. I was a teenage white kid from suburban Opie Land, that was my excuse. What excuse did our leaders have?

This slight reminiscence from one who was there gives you a small peek into just one small shard of the multifaceted tragedy that was 'Nam. In its aftermath, I was sure our country would never make such a brutal, bloody, unforgivably ignorant mistake again. Then, Cheney and The Dub took us into Iraq.

Now, we have The Big Orange Ignoramus playing El Presidente like the banana republic bozo that he is.

What can I say? I haz a sad.

 

[Commodus]

It's a reminder of the longest-running problems with American foreign policy: that eagerness to interfere with another country's politics without really understanding them... particularly to turn a blind eye to one evil in order to address another perceived evil.

Don't forget that the US propped up the Mujahideen because they were fighting the Russians... and, well, look where that got everyone.

 

[agent00f]

It's a reminder of the longest-running problems with American foreign policy: that eagerness to interfere with another country's politics without really understanding them... particularly to turn a blind eye to one evil in order to address another perceived evil.

Don't forget that the US propped up the Mujahideen because they were fighting the Russians... and, well, look where that got everyone.

We have a really bad habit of over-analyzing the reasons behind these actions, when they're all much better explained as simply what any insecure wannabe tough guy would do. For anyone who might have some trouble imagining that, just think of how any number of overly proud lowest common denominator conservatives we have around here deals with anything in life. As an example we inherited Vietnam from them french cucks to show those snowflakes how a Real man country fights a land war in asia. Or Iraq where our clan head gotta get back at theirs to finish what his daddy started.

Of course their sycophants need to come up with sophisticated sounding theories to rationalize/moralize these primitive urges, but it's easy to see that popular support for acting all macho on a grander scale comes from a substantial portion of the populace who see conducting international relations/policy like they would feuding in the hills.

 

[MajinCry]

And don't forget the soldiers that were all too happy to engage in mass rape and slaughter.

http://links.org.au/node/3343

The first testimony excerpt:

Anybody that was dead was considered a VC. If you killed someone they said, "How do you know he's a VC?" and the general reply would be, "He's dead," and that was sufficient.

When we went through the villages and searched people the women would have all their clothes taken off and the men would use their penises to probe them to make sure they didn't have anything hidden anywhere and this was raping but it was done as searching…

The main thing was that if an operation was covered by the press there were certain things we weren't supposed to do, but if there was no press there, it was okay. I saw one case where a woman was shot by a sniper, one of our snipers. When we got up to her she was asking for water. And the Lt. said to kill her. So he ripped off her clothes, they stabbed her in both breasts, they spread-eagled her and shoved an E- tool up her vagina, an entrenching tool, and she was still asking for water. And then they took that out and they used a tree limb and then she was shot.[2]

I remember @MagnusTheBrewer pish-poshing away Winter Soldier, essentially saying that the veterans testifying in Winter Soldier (1970) were liars. Soldier Worship's fucked, yo.

Edit: Aha, here it is - https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/hope-for-afghanistan.2489324/#post-38526872

 

[agent00f]

And don't forget the soldiers that were all too happy to engage in mass rape and slaughter.

http://links.org.au/node/3343

The first testimony excerpt:



I remember @MagnusTheBrewer pish-poshing away Winter Soldier, essentially saying that the veterans testifying in Winter Soldier (1970) were liars. Soldier Worship's fucked, yo.

Soldiers just follow the example set from above. It all happens because water boys are willing to protect their own no matter what.

 

[JSt0rm]

this sums it up.

 

[NostaSeronx]

this sums it up.

Except, American intervention prevented most atrocities from taking place. That particular attack was Vietnamese on Vietnamese (img).

Note the massacres before and after:
Stalin
Mao Zedong
Pol Pot
, etc

Most negative coverage of American's military intervention is seeded with lingering psy-op-rot that got into the higher education system.

In the long term, Korean/Vietnam prevented communism from effectively spreading into Oceanic Asian nation states; Japan/Philippines/Indonesia/Malaysia.

The Iraq wars specifically the second one allowed for Iran and Iraq to become closer allies. Effectively alienating Al Qaeda and ISIS from being supported. This also pushed Iran to be invested by captialistic supporters from Russia and China. So, overall Iran is getting rid of its extremist ties simply because of American interventions.

American long term goals are achieved while politics and media says that it was wrong and a loss.

 

[JSt0rm]

confirmed Banksy is a psy-op-rot

You probably dont even know who Banksy is.

 

[MajinCry]

Except, American intervention prevented most atrocities from taking place. That particular attack was Vietnamese on Vietnamese (img).

Note the massacres before and after:
Stalin
Mao Zedong
Pol Pot
, etc

Most negative coverage of American's military intervention is seeded with lingering psy-op-rot that got into the higher education system.

Except that's not true in the slightest. You bought into US propaganda of being the freedom fighters. Let's look at what Chomsky has to say: https://chomsky.info/1990____-2/

- Truman proceeded to organize a major counter-insurgency campaign in Greece which killed off about one hundred and sixty thousand people, sixty thousand refugees, another sixty thousand or so people tortured, political system dismantled, right-wing regime. American corporations came in and took it over. I think that’s a crime under Nuremberg.

- Well, what about Eisenhower? You could argue over whether his overthrow of the government of Guatemala was a crime. There was a CIA-backed army, which went in under U.S. threats and bombing and so on to undermine that capitalist democracy. I think that’s a crime. The invasion of Lebanon in 1958, I don’t know, you could argue. A lot of people were killed. The overthrow of the government of Iran is another one — through a CIA-backed coup. But Guatemala suffices for Eisenhower and there’s plenty more.

- Kennedy is easy. The invasion of Cuba was outright aggression. Eisenhower planned it, incidentally, so he was involved in a conspiracy to invade another country, which we can add to his score. After the invasion of Cuba, Kennedy launched a huge terrorist campaign against Cuba, which was very serious. No joke. Bombardment of industrial installations with killing of plenty of people, bombing hotels, sinking fishing boats, sabotage. Later, under Nixon, it even went as far as poisoning livestock and so on. Big affair. And then came Vietnam; he invaded Vietnam. He invaded South Vietnam in 1962. He sent the U.S. Air Force to start bombing. Okay. We took care of Kennedy.

- Johnson is trivial. The Indochina war alone, forget the invasion of the Dominican Republic, was a major war crime.

- Nixon the same. Nixon invaded Cambodia. The Nixon-Kissinger bombing of Cambodia in the early ’70’s was not all that different from the Khmer Rouge atrocities, in scale somewhat less, but not much less. Same was true in Laos. I could go on case after case with them, that’s easy.

- Ford was only there for a very short time so he didn’t have time for a lot of crimes, but he managed one major one. He supported the Indonesian invasion of East Timor, which was near genocidal. I mean, it makes Saddam Hussein’s invasion of Kuwait look like a tea party. That was supported decisively by the United States, both the diplmatic and the necessary military support came primarily from the United States. This was picked up under Carter.

- Carter was the least violent of American presidents but he did things which I think would certainly fall under Nuremberg provisions. As the Indonesian atrocities increased to a level of really near-genocide, the U.S. aid under Carter increased. It reached a peak in 1978 as the atrocities peaked. So we took care of Carter, even forgetting other things.

- Reagan. It’s not a question. I mean, the stuff in Central America alone suffices. Support for the Israeli invasion of Lebanon also makes Saddam Hussein look pretty mild in terms of casualties and destruction. That suffices.

- Bush. Well, need we talk on? In fact, in the Reagan period there’s even an International Court of Justice decision on what they call the “unlawful use of force” for which Reagan and Bush were condemned. I mean, you could argue about some of these people, but I think you could make a pretty strong case if you look at the Nuremberg decisions, Nuremberg and Tokyo, and you ask what people were condemned for. I think American presidents are well within the range.

Man, so many lives saved, God bless Amer-

Wait a minute.

 

[JSt0rm]

american exceptionalism

 

[JSt0rm]

ok almost done plastering art to the forums for the morning...

 

[NostaSeronx]

Wait a minute.

A successful extreme leftist takeover of any government is highly more dangerous. Than lets say failed military operations that lead to minor genocides in short periods of times. Rather, than having the extreme left win and having a progressive genocide over potentially decades.

United States support doesn't imply full US sanction.

 

[JSt0rm]

A successful extreme leftist takeover of any government is highly more dangerous. Than lets say failed military operations that lead to minor genocides in short periods of times. Rather, than having the extreme left win and having a progressive genocide over potentially decades.

United States support doesn't imply full US sanction.

Your fear shows your brain is misaligned. There was a place for your kind in the past but the modern world has no place for fearful conservatives. If humanity doesnt learn how to move past this conservative fearful mind set we will end ourselves sometime in the new few thousand years.

It was a good thing when you could be eaten by a animal in our past or you worried about the tribe next door raiding you but now, with our destructive abilities? No. Go away.

 

[MajinCry]

A successful extreme leftist takeover of any government is highly more dangerous. Than lets say failed military operations that lead to minor genocides in short periods of times. Rather, than having the extreme left win and having a progressive genocide over potentially decades.

United States support doesn't imply full US sanction.

The fuck you on about? Progressive genocide? Sounds like you're one of those neo-Nazis.

 

[NostaSeronx]

The fuck you on about? Progressive genocide?

The usage of political correctness by leftist politicians in communistic regimes allows for long-term/over-time genocides.

Sounds like you're one of those neo-Nazis.

Theological correctness is a rightist tool stolen from leftist books. If the "intelligent people" craft it then of course the higher curved right snake oil sellers will use it.

 

[Azuma Hazuki]

Uh, Nosta...granted I've never seen you get political before, but this is kind of a surprise. "Domino-effect" was long since debunked, and even if you want to argue that stopping the spread of Communism is in itself a worthy idea, you have to admit the US doesn't know what to do after the bombing and war stop.

In particular, the use of proxy warfare has unintended consequences, "blowback," that make the supposed cure worse than the disease.

 

[NostaSeronx]

Domino theory failed to work because of two overwhelming large components:

1. American Intervention (Produced dislike to hate for the supporting countries: China/Russia as they wouldn't fully intervene themselves on threat of nuclear war)
2. A shift in power from Extreme-left to Moderate-left in Communistic states. (The old gets replaced by the new which fully curtailed communism's spread. It also produced a huge divide between Russia and China. As the enemy, is now like always within the party.)

Vietnam's tragedy was that its allies were worse than its perceived enemy => America.

 

[agent00f]

The usage of political correctness by leftist politicians in communistic regimes allows for long-term/over-time genocides.Theological correctness is a rightist tool stolen from leftist books. If the "intelligent people" craft it then of course the higher curved right snake oil sellers will use it.

Just a heads up that you're literally the parroting the Nazis.

 

[werepossum]

I don't think the USA was wrong. I think we merely lacked resolve. After the Communists came to power in the South, they murdered and imprisoned the elite, teachers, capitalists, and other political opposition, setting back the nation a couple generations. Vietnam could easily have been another South Korea. Instead, our internal division allowed it to become another North Korea. Congratulations, I guess. Thankfully, Vietnam's Communist leaders are finally beginning to understand economics and wealth creation. Perhaps like Red China, it can one day claw its way up to an unfree but prosperous status.

 

[agent00f]

I don't think the USA was wrong. I think we merely lacked resolve. After the Communists came to power in the South, they murdered and imprisoned the elite, teachers, capitalists, and other political opposition, setting back the nation a couple generations. Vietnam could easily have been another South Korea. Instead, our internal division allowed it to become another North Korea. Congratulations, I guess. Thankfully, Vietnam's Communist leaders are finally beginning to understand economics and wealth creation. Perhaps like Red China, it can one day claw its way up to an unfree but prosperous status.

Worth considering the advice provided to NostaSeronx. One thing nobody would accuse the reich of is lack in resolve.

 

[Ns1]

ah n/m.

 

[xthetenth]

I don't think the USA was wrong. I think we merely lacked resolve. After the Communists came to power in the South, they murdered and imprisoned the elite, teachers, capitalists, and other political opposition, setting back the nation a couple generations. Vietnam could easily have been another South Korea. Instead, our internal division allowed it to become another North Korea. Congratulations, I guess. Thankfully, Vietnam's Communist leaders are finally beginning to understand economics and wealth creation. Perhaps like Red China, it can one day claw its way up to an unfree but prosperous status.

Out of curiosity, are you familiar with the sort of place South Korea was before the '80s?

 

[Meghan54]

ah n/m.

Yeah, I know, some of the responses here are just too 1950's-ish for me. Domino theory.....LOL!!!!

And the notion that the tragedy of Vietnam was "its allies were worse than its perceived enemy => America," is just astoundingly ignorant, as if millions of lives needlessly wasted isn't a tragedy.

 

[MajinCry]

Yeah, I know, some of the responses here are just too 1950's-ish for me. Domino theory.....LOL!!!!

And the notion that the tragedy of Vietnam was "its allies were worse than its perceived enemy => America," is just astoundingly ignorant, as if tens of thousands of lives needlessly wasted isn't a tragedy.

Tens of thousands? Sounds pretty conservative, especially when you consider the far-reaching effects of that genocide powder.

Children are still being born, to this day, horribly deformed due entirely to the acts of Americans. When's the US going to clean up all that Agent Orange?

 

[crashtech]

I hosted an exchange student from Vietnam, from Hanoi actually, if you can believe it. He had some interesting opinions on the way he wished it all had gone that made me reconsider some of my previous conclusions. At any rate, I was gratified by the fact that he and I could chat in the kitchen over fried rice or pho instead of trying to kill one another