The most important thing that happened this past weekend in the US is this. Will people finally act?

Hayabusa Rider

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Jan 26, 2000
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...-over-our-legal-norms/?utm_term=.2fb05b9445d6

A seperate thread because is no longer a demand, a tweet, but a reality which has happened. This is crossing the rubicon, an actual act to interfere in the investigation by using Presidential power.

The Mueller investigation should continue but now is the time for Democrats to stand together as one and use all their influence, horse trading, whatever to recruit Republicans to remove Trump for the basis as Nixon. If they can't get formal support it's time to grow a spine and stand against this as much as they do with other concerns.

Will people step up and raise a real fuss about Trump's factual abuse of power up to and including impeachment if that seems possible or just sit around and shake their heads and offer thoughts and prayers for our nation?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Yes, the president ordering the Department of Justice to initiate an investigation in order to undermine a criminal investigation into him and his associates should lead to his immediate impeachment and conviction.

That being said, Rosenstein has (at least so far) deflected it into a relatively meaningless bin at the moment. The real test will be if Trump tries to force them to make it into a real criminal investigation. If he does my hope is that senior leadership in the justice department stands up for the Constitution and resigns. I imagine it will take some sort of dramatic action like the Saturday Night Massacre to break people out of their stupor and realize what a threat this is.

In the end though there’s not much Democrats can do. It’s a bleak place we are in but in the end we are going to need at least a few brave Republicans to save the country.
 

K1052

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Aug 21, 2003
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No, watching the republic fall to own the libs will be one of the closing chapters in our story.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...-over-our-legal-norms/?utm_term=.2fb05b9445d6

A seperate thread because is no longer a demand, a tweet, but a reality which has happened. This is crossing the rubicon, an actual act to interfere in the investigation by using Presidential power.

They (Republicans) believe the investigators have committed crimes. I am not aware of the extent of the accusations against them, or even what crimes are being claimed. Just that there are some very upset people who believe the line was already crossed by the Democrats. They view this as a second strike, retaliation for what the Department of Justice did under Obama.
 

Hayabusa Rider

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No, watching the republic fall to own the libs will be one of the closing chapters in our story.

I'm not going to minimize the suffering of those harmed in the school shootings but of the public does not recognize that this is at least as great a threat as shootings to our nation then perhaps we should fall. Protest shootings by all means and call for action but people should be as outraged over this and leaders respond at the same level.
 

fskimospy

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Mar 10, 2006
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They (Republicans) believe the investigators have committed crimes. I am not aware of the extent of the accusations against them, or even what crimes are being claimed. Just that there are some very upset people who believe the line was already crossed by the Democrats. They view this as a second strike, retaliation for what the Department of Justice did under Obama.

Right, but this belief has no basis in reality as there is literally no evidence of any improper conduct. The best evidence available says the FBI asked this professor to reach out to Carter Page and George Papadopoulos after it came to the FBI’s attention that they were potentially acting as agents of a foreign power. It is not only appropriate for the FBI to do that, it would be negligent of them not to. I mean that’s the job.

I don’t believe you agree with them but I also don’t see how saying they believe this is productive as there’s no point in trying to engage with insane conspiracy theories. If the answer is just that one political party has lost its mind then that kind of answers that.
 

Hayabusa Rider

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They (Republicans) believe the investigators have committed crimes. I am not aware of the extent of the accusations against them, or even what crimes are being claimed. Just that there are some very upset people who believe the line was already crossed by the Democrats. They view this as a second strike, retaliation for what the Department of Justice did under Obama.

This is an investigative body, a legal entity which exists and known as the Department of Justice. If there is wrongdoing shown then it is fitting they investigate. There has been no evidence shown, but a "demand" by a President with no legal justification interfering with an ongoing criminal investigation in which he has an interest.

This is not politics as usual.
 

Hayabusa Rider

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If the answer is just that one political party has lost its mind then that kind of answers that.

Crazy old Nixon at it again. Well those Dems you know.

Some talking head Republican in Congress said "well the President can request an investigation. Anyone can" as if there was an equivalence between us requesting and Trump demanding. This is Article 2 of Nixon impeachments. This is a public act with precident for prosecution, not a Tweet anymore.
 

thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
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Wake me up when charges are laid....
There are so many unethical (and maybe illegal) things being done but the only thing that will stick and (maybe) convince his base to drop support will be if there are actual charges and conviction. Until then, he can pretty much do whatever he wants without consequences as the Republicans will not impeach him.
 

K1052

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Aug 21, 2003
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Wake me up when charges are laid....
There are so many unethical (and maybe illegal) things being done but the only thing that will stick and (maybe) convince his base to drop support will be if there are actual charges and conviction. Until then, he can pretty much do whatever he wants without consequences as the Republicans will not impeach him.

The assumption that there is any such limit for these people I think is a really terrible mistake.
 

fskimospy

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Mar 10, 2006
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Crazy old Nixon at it again. Well those Dems you know.

Some talking head Republican in Congress said "well the President can request an investigation. Anyone can" as if there was an equivalence between us requesting and Trump demanding. This is Article 2 of Nixon impeachments. This is a public act with precident for prosecution, not a Tweet anymore.

Yes, first you are obviously correct that the president 'requesting' something and one of us requesting something is totally different. Second though, he didn't request anything, he demanded it in his capacity as the president. Conservatives thought it was the fall of the republic when they (incorrectly) thought Obama ordered the IRS to examine applications from conservative nonprofits more closely. If that had been true that would have been pretty bad, but this is the president ordering criminal investigation of those investigating his administration for criminal activity... after they already found a bunch.

You are very correct that this is not some regular scandal, this is a red alert, existential threat to our system of government. People keep saying (again, wildly incorrectly) that there's a lot of smoke but no fire. This is a fire.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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They (Republicans) believe the investigators have committed crimes. I am not aware of the extent of the accusations against them, or even what crimes are being claimed. Just that there are some very upset people who believe the line was already crossed by the Democrats. They view this as a second strike, retaliation for what the Department of Justice did under Obama.

They don't believe any of it. It's a performance aimed at the rubes.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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I don’t believe you agree with them but I also don’t see how saying they believe this is productive as there’s no point in trying to engage with insane conspiracy theories. If the answer is just that one political party has lost its mind then that kind of answers that.

I believe we must understand our opponent(s). If they have lost their minds then we must know what that... feels like? Or rather... we need to know their motivations and their supposed facts. So that we can better communicate the reality of the situation as a counter narrative to their alternative reality. We cannot just wave it off as crazy, people actually watch Fox News and believe this stuff.

It is the narrative of the political party in America who holds both houses and the Presidency. We cannot ignore how they got to this point. It requires a two prong approach. Both putting out the fires they start, and "arresting" the arson lighting these fires. It is no simple task either, attempting to understand a foreign mindset that resembles nothing recognizable. Yet duty may dictate its necessity. That is... if we care about our country and its rotten politics.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
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Yes, first you are obviously correct that the president 'requesting' something and one of us requesting something is totally different. Second though, he didn't request anything, he demanded it in his capacity as the president. Conservatives thought it was the fall of the republic when they (incorrectly) thought Obama ordered the IRS to examine applications from conservative nonprofits more closely. If that had been true that would have been pretty bad, but this is the president ordering criminal investigation of those investigating his administration for criminal activity... after they already found a bunch.

You are very correct that this is not some regular scandal, this is a red alert, existential threat to our system of government. People keep saying (again, wildly incorrectly) that there's a lot of smoke but no fire. This is a fire.

I love reminding people what they voted for, as if this should shock anyone

RTSJ4HR-1024x635.jpg


Palazzo-Braschi-fascist-facade-2-si.jpg
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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I believe we must understand our opponent(s). If they have lost their minds then we must know what that... feels like? Or rather... we need to know their motivations and their supposed facts. So that we can better communicate the reality of the situation as a counter narrative to their alternative reality. We cannot just wave it off as crazy, people actually watch Fox News and believe this stuff.

It is the narrative of the political party in America who holds both houses and the Presidency. We cannot ignore how they got to this point. It requires a two prong approach. Both putting out the fires they start, and "arresting" the arson lighting these fires. It is no simple task either, attempting to understand a foreign mindset that resembles nothing recognizable. Yet duty may dictate its necessity. That is... if we care about our country and its rotten politics.

But isn't the issue that they don't care about the reality of the situation? This isn't a new thing either, birtherism, secret Muslim Obama, Jade Helm, IRS targeting, FEMA camps, global warming, evolution, etc, etc, etc.

I mean even with something like global warming where the reality of the situation is super, super clear instead of accepting it they declared a worldwide scientific conspiracy so that the UN could take over. How would you go about reaching that?
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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Giuliani's spin is fantastic. He argues that if the informant added nothing to the investigation that it's somehow exculpatory when it wouldn't be that at all.

Expect selective leaks from Nunes et al. Expect Trump's legal team to get all of it, too.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,742
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I believe we must understand our opponent(s). If they have lost their minds then we must know what that... feels like? Or rather... we need to know their motivations and their supposed facts. So that we can better communicate the reality of the situation as a counter narrative to their alternative reality. We cannot just wave it off as crazy, people actually watch Fox News and believe this stuff.

It is the narrative of the political party in America who holds both houses and the Presidency. We cannot ignore how they got to this point. It requires a two prong approach. Both putting out the fires they start, and "arresting" the arson lighting these fires. It is no simple task either, attempting to understand a foreign mindset that resembles nothing recognizable. Yet duty may dictate its necessity. That is... if we care about our country and its rotten politics.

How does one do this? They have been convinced that the truth is a pile of gross lies designed to steal their freedom. Decades of GOP gaslighting has captured their brains, and shielded them from absorbing observational, verifiable, fact-based information dissemination. They have been convinced to trust their instincts, above all, in place of objective truth.

What do you propose to do with that when any encounter with the truth is met outright rejection because it simply doesn't confirm their unfounded and untested belief structure?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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Giuliani's spin is fantastic. He argues that if the informant added nothing to the investigation that it's somehow exculpatory when it wouldn't be that at all.

Expect selective leaks from Nunes et al. Expect Trump's legal team to get all of it, too.

I no longer care. This is like asking (going for the Godwin) Nazis to police themselves.

Someone elsewhere asked me what Democrats should do differently about this and I'll post the TL;DR below-



"Show they exist in the matter. Chuck Schumer says "Naughty, we won't stand for this", then does. Adam Schiff is the only Dem on point on a regular basis and has become their talking head. Maxine calls for impeachment and everyone looks away, including the Dems.

Doing something of substance would be different and Trump has crossed the Rubicon as I said. Not ignorance, not stirring up disgusting elements, but in reality by forcing an existential threat to the Republic with his Nixonian abuse of power. He has demanded, that's the word, that he be allowed to interfere in an investigation in which he has an interest based on nothing but a statement for which there is no basis. That is an astound act, the enormity of which we have not seen in this investigation, the actual, material, a fundamental violation of the rule of law, and a serious and historical basis for an article of impeachment.

More than a day later from CNN Trump's norm-breaking is leading to a constitutional fight

This is the response from Chuck Schumer on this non-hyperbolic Constitutional crisis per the article cited:

"That he would issue such an absurd and abusive demand based on no evidence shows just how little regard the President has for the rule of law," said Democratic Senate leader Chuck Schumer, of New York. "President Trump seems to have the terribly misguided view that the Department of Justice is there to protect his political interests and prosecute his enemies."

Well hells bells, that's been Chuck from day one and that is to be seen saying something, which is the summary of the Democrats actions with rare exception, the shaking of heads and prayers for our nation.

The Dems were responsible for hiding whatever wrongdoings happened during the Iraq War by not bothering to even fight for a comprehensive investigation, leaving hundreds of thousands of people without closure, moral cowardice.

"Well the Republicans could have called for it" or "we just want to heal wounds"- by not allowing that with those most impacted is reprehensible. "But Republicans"? We know what they were and are now and to go full Godwin expecting them to step up for wrongs perpetrated is like expecting the Nazis to have policed their ranks. It's utter nonsense.

What to do? The constituents shouldn't be playing apologists, they should be calling their leaders on their lack of inaction, treating this as at least as an important issue as school shootings and acting as forcefully about this heinous act of this Administration. Hell, Ollie North gets more play.

Get your top leaders in the public face. Call for an investigation of their own, write up articles of impeachment for non-trivial matters and present them to the public first and link them to Nixonian actions. Get every single friggin member of Congress together and speak in public with one voice. Filibuster, horse trade with the Republicans who aren't fans of all this and there are some work with them, but be seen and heard taking action as with looking into the Republicans such as Nunes to see if there's an impeachable offense and frigging go for their throat by every legal and proper means.

There's not even a united sense of outrage where there should be.

Democrats are utterly uninspiring and that may cost them the wins they once had in their pockets. "Look at us, we're not that bad" will do more than cost them, it will cost the nation and more I'm not sure they won't pull another Iraq War and proceed with reconciliation assuming they win.

What to do? Everything within the law! Stake your reputations, your political hay for the nation and not yourselves. That's what."
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
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Must be outrage Tuesday. Which comes after outrage Monday and before outrage Wednesday.
 

Hayabusa Rider

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Must be outrage Tuesday. Which comes after outrage Monday and before outrage Wednesday.

Hey, I understand you and a few others don't see this as something to be concerned about or not enough to call for material action. There's a lot of that about.