The Middle Class RADICALLY shinking

[llee]

You are lost!
Profit is all that matter FULL STOP!
money has lost it's intent and has been hyjacked'
EVERYONE HAS BECOME A WHORE TO PROFIT!
The yanks made themselves off Celtic courage, now it's time to answer with more then a handout lads!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cehLiGxguQI&feature=related
United or divided states?
cw2?
What really is to understand who really makes production possible!
Yes the proud janitor is a wise man!

Wrong. The janitor should learn to go to school and get a degree. Maybe then the janitor will be able to earn some more money and make a decent living. That way, he'll improve the lives of his family and he won't have to whine about how screwed up America is on an internet blog. Oops, I didn't mean to say that out loud.

 

[3chordcharlie]

I know some people will jump all over me for saying this, but free trade was a mistake of biblical proportions. As you say, it was a ploy by the wealthy to ensure themselves more money and security.

Free trade in production is great.

Mixing this with free movement of capital is a pretty big problem. We (or rather, 'domestic capital') are funding the foreign factories that are ruining us.

 

[BoberFett]

Free trade in production is great.

Mixing this with free movement of capital is a pretty big problem. We (or rather, 'domestic capital') are funding the foreign factories that are ruining us.

Yup

 

[Red Dawn]

Wrong. The janitor should learn to go to school and get a degree. Maybe then the janitor will be able to earn some more money and make a decent living. That way, he'll improve the lives of his family and he won't have to whine about how screwed up America is on an internet blog. Oops, I didn't mean to say that out loud.

Actually it's not the janitor who has the problem, he already has his place in society and he's going to be able to live the life he set for himself, it's those who get the degree going into debt to get it only to barely make wages to live comfortably.

 

[boomerang]

If Dave had a physical real disease you could believe in that yes?
you would toss him a coin and feel better for your own prosperity'
Fucked for how long?
You can't keep a good man down!
The regret is your own self-hate.

Will you be entering this thread from your other account too?

 

[alkemyst]

Essentially, conservatives are asking the American middle class to compete with this type of crushing poverty and desperation and we'll meet somewhere in the middle.

Chances are where that kid is from has no working class at all.

There are plenty of places where some kid is making $3 a week and although they aren't able to go to school and play, they are eating food and at least living under a roof.

The problem with these debates and the solution is most think it's an impossible battle so they don't even try. The rest get into pissing matches that every business owner is a billionaire and every foreign worker is some Ethiopian starving to death.

 

[gingermeggs]

Will you be entering this thread from your other account too?

If you try to connect me to moonie- you have one point of the star right, but he likes to hide his hate in religion.... me I'm diametrically opposite of that idea, I don't cop out, I place blame on human shoulders, I want blood not water!
Todays sins not yesterdays....napoleons code!
I've already tried to show a way to moonie, about what gaiaism is and homeostatis but he clung to his upbring, which is probably sthn baptist crap or 7th daiers'
me your worm dirt on death' abd worse in life under this crook system- which is basically anglosax colonialism.
I believe man has a collective conscientiousness, but it's been perverted
and marx's pointed it all out-
all for one and none for all!
what it transpires to in reality, you can chip me in 5 years and see if your thinking the same way, when nobody honours the money so much.
weirdest thing is I see poor uneducated having happier lives!
I am not racist, I believe tyranny crushes all if they don't ball up' black, white yellow or brown.
no-one dares answer the money question..............................???????????????????????????????
what is it, but a honour system!
what happens in a culture of no honour??????

 

[gingermeggs]

Chances are where that kid is from has no working class at all.

There are plenty of places where some kid is making $3 a week and although they aren't able to go to school and play, they are eating food and at least living under a roof.

The problem with these debates and the solution is most think it's an impossible battle so they don't even try. The rest get into pissing matches that every business owner is a billionaire and every foreign worker is some Ethiopian starving to death.

CHANCES ARE- HE'S SPOILT ROTTEN WESTERN Y-GEN!
Faux leftist like the parents.
with a faux socialist outlook, he bares no pain for humanitarian gain.
Look at counties being raped by western corps, and the morality degeneration they have created- congo is a good example
when do they take a hit???????

 

[IndyColtsFan]

You can blame those big, nasty, evil, corporations and their wealthy overlords if you want. But they just gave Americans what they begged for. More cheap shit.

This is very true and something I neglected to mention earlier. The average consumer is greedy as well, but in this case, for cheap goods. I won't say I'm not guilty of that myself, but at least I do make an effort to buy "American" when possible (like cars). There is enough blame to go around but in my opinion, it still all boils down to our elected officials. We elect people not to watch out for the interests of China, India, or Bangladesh, but for the interests of the United States. The only interests they look out for, it seems, is for their own interests and the interests of the lobbyists who are buying them off.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Free trade in production is great.

Mixing this with free movement of capital is a pretty big problem. We (or rather, 'domestic capital') are funding the foreign factories that are ruining us.

Correct.

 

[StageLeft]

This is very true and something I neglected to mention earlier. The average consumer is greedy as well, but in this case, for cheap goods. I won't say I'm not guilty of that myself, but at least I do make an effort to buy "American" when possible (like cars). There is enough blame to go around but in my opinion, it still all boils down to our elected officials. We elect people not to watch out for the interests of China, India, or Bangladesh, but for the interests of the United States. The only interests they look out for, it seems, is for their own interests and the interests of the lobbyists who are buying them off.

I generally don't bother buying American because there's no point; I can affect my own life more by saving a few bucks buying something an indentured Chinaman made than somebody in Idaho. What I do makes no difference in the grand scheme and costs me money. Only if we all agreed to give that Idaho guy money could we potentially see the US bumped up and it could make its way possibly to me in some other sense. All things equal I'll pay the money domestically, though. But they rarely are equal.

And the fact is if I pay that guy in Idaho my money he's probably just going to go to Walmart and spend it on a made in china product anyway.

 

[Red Dawn]

I generally don't bother buying American because there's no point; I can affect my own life more by saving a few bucks buying something an indentured Chinaman made than somebody in Idaho. What I do makes no difference in the grand scheme and costs me money. Only if we all agreed to give that Idaho guy money could we potentially see the US bumped up and it could make its way possibly to me in some other sense. All things equal I'll pay the money domestically, though. But they rarely are equal.

And the fact is if I pay that guy in Idaho my money he's probably just going to go to Walmart and spend it on a made in china product anyway.

So what you are saying is that the ship sailed and it's to late to do anything about it. You might be right.

 

[StageLeft]

So what you are saying is that the ship sailed and it's to late to do anything about it. You might be right.

Perhaps. I wish I knew more about economics but then a hundred economics looking out the same window can't even agree on whether it's raining or not. The two main hurdles are 1) Figuring out what the solution is, 2) Getting the political will to do something.

Even if the difficult-to-pin 1) is solved I see no will at all in the political system. It is perhaps irrevocably corrupted by corporate lobbying and I see no way to back that out. All the foxes are in charge of the hen house and even if a strong chicken came along it would still be ripped up by its peers. I'm sure that even a good politician would be marginalized until he was a pathetic husk by those who have been engaged in this nonsense for years.

 

[Red Dawn]

Perhaps. I wish I knew more about economics but then a hundred economics looking out the same window can't even agree on whether it's raining or not. The two main hurdles are 1) Figuring out what the solution is, 2) Getting the political will to do something.

Even if the difficult-to-pin 1) is solved I see no will at all in the political system. It is perhaps irrevocably corrupted by corporate lobbying and I see no way to back that out. All the foxes are in charge of the hen house and even if a strong chicken came along it would still be ripped up by its peers. I'm sure that even a good politician would be marginalized until he was a pathetic husk by those who have been engaged in this nonsense for years.

It seems Obama is a perfect example of that.

 

[drebo]

Free trade in production is great.

Mixing this with free movement of capital is a pretty big problem. We (or rather, 'domestic capital') are funding the foreign factories that are ruining us.

The solution to this is to allow America to become competitive once again in the global manufacturing market.

That can't happen, though, until people realize that someone whose only job is to sweep a floor is not worth $20.00/hr + bennies and the government realizes that the added revenue from exports is far more important to the growth and health of the nation than direct taxes on big, evil corporations. Oh, and some of the ridiculous regulations we have need to be lessened as well.

Additionally, you seem to be forgetting that the vertical market chain is extremely long. To sell something in America, even if it is produced elsewhere, you still need someone to unload the boat, someone to transport it, someone to stock it, someone to sell it to a distributor, someone to move it to the distributor, someone to warehouse it at the distributor, someone to sell it to a retailer, someone to transport it to the retailer, someone to sell it at retail, and, a lot of times, someone to deliver it to the customer.

The manufacturing side of things, especially in the age of technology, and more especially in the age when the production of most things is automated, is relatively small in terms of manpower. Really, the only thing that manufacturing domestically would accomplish would be to bring in more foreign wealth, which is desperately needed. It wouldn't really help the employment situation that much, though.

 

[drebo]

Even if the difficult-to-pin 1) is solved I see no will at all in the political system.

The less wealth the working class (lower through middle) has and is capable of making, the more reliant they will be on the government.

It is not in the government's (read: politicians') own best self-interest to allow the working class to have any semblence of upper mobility. Reliance on the government = power for the government, and that's all politicians on both sides really ever want. Career politicans need to be relieved of their duties and pays all need to be slashed. "Politician" should be a labor of love, not a career.

 

[Red Dawn]

The solution to this is to allow America to become competitive once again in the global manufacturing market.

That can't happen, though, until people realize that someone whose only job is to sweep a floor is not worth $20.00/hr + bennies .

Except they aren't the ones who are competing with foreign labor. In addition there's not that many of them who make that amount, the vast majority of them are lucky to make $10 an hour without any significant bennies. It's not their jobs that are at stake, it's yours.

 

[SammyJr]

Where are all the right-wingers in this thread? How come they're not telling us how GREAT the free market is?

According to some on these forums (don't want to name any names), if 150 million American workers just got the "right attitude," every single one of them could be wealthy, even though their Chinese and Indian counterparts are willing to do everything Americans can do for pennies on the dollar. Really, the free market is magic. Ya just gotta believe.

Its the Free Trade religion. It involves believing that by offshoring jobs and giving massive tax breaks and corporate welfare to the wealthy, every American will magically get new and better jobs and become extremely wealthy themselves. It obviously doesn't work this way, but like every other religion, it requires faith and sacrifice at the altar of that faith.

 

[drebo]

Except they aren't the ones who are competing with foreign labor. In addition there's not that many of them who make that amount, the vast majority of them are lucky to make $10 an hour without any significant bennies. It's not their jobs that are at stake, it's yours.

They may not be competing with foreign manufacturing labor directly, but they sure as hell contribute to our increased cost of manufactured goods. The cost of the janitor needs to be built in to the cost of good sold just as much as the cost of the laborer who runs the wave soldering machine.

 

[Red Dawn]

They may not be competing with foreign manufacturing labor directly, but they sure as hell contribute to our increased cost of manufactured goods. The cost of the janitor needs to be built in to the cost of good sold just as much as the cost of the laborer who runs the wave soldering machine.

As have you. They need those wages to be able to pay for your overpriced services.

 

[Moonbeam]

Conservatives needn't worry much as most of them are lower class already.

 

[SammyJr]

As have you. They need those wages to be able to pay for your overpriced services.

Don't pop drebo's bubble. His livelyhood is insulated from the effects of the greater economy and he is totally incapable of being replaced by an H1-B or illegal immigrant.

 

[alkemyst]

The thing is [and most can't accept this] that we need to reel in the last 50 years of fucking ourselves in the ass, bite the bullet of increased costs for a bit, and then get back on track.

For the most part the educated always were able to live the 'American Dream'. You weren't always Rockenfeller, but you had a place you could call your own, a bit of yard for the kids and a couple decently running cars in the driveway, one of which you were able to give to your kid at 16 and upgrade.

Life sucks sometimes though and maybe you were born with a mental or physical handicap....maybe you just didn't have a chance to go to college, etc. Then you have to team up and make a life communally. It shouldn't be up to the rest of our country to pitch in to bring anyone up to speed. In fact, by doing so takes away from all of us. We stopped allowing for losing teams. Fuck our grade school sports don't even keep score sometimes lest someone get their feelings hurt.

An American should make more, an American product should cost more and be of higher quality, and an American should live better than the rest.

We need to tariff imports or leverage them against our exports, we need to stop foreign labor entirely, and we need to stop allowing every fucktard to make it to college.

 

[BoberFett]

The thing is [and most can't accept this] that we need to reel in the last 50 years of fucking ourselves in the ass, bite the bullet of increased costs for a bit, and then get back on track.

For the most part the educated always were able to live the 'American Dream'. You weren't always Rockenfeller, but you had a place you could call your own, a bit of yard for the kids and a couple decently running cars in the driveway, one of which you were able to give to your kid at 16 and upgrade.

Life sucks sometimes though and maybe you were born with a mental or physical handicap....maybe you just didn't have a chance to go to college, etc. Then you have to team up and make a life communally. It shouldn't be up to the rest of our country to pitch in to bring anyone up to speed. In fact, by doing so takes away from all of us. We stopped allowing for losing teams. Fuck our grade school sports don't even keep score sometimes lest someone get their feelings hurt.

An American should make more, an American product should cost more and be of higher quality, and an American should live better than the rest.

We need to tariff imports or leverage them against our exports, we need to stop foreign labor entirely, and we need to stop allowing every fucktard to make it to college.

You're exactly right Alkemyst, and I've discussed this elsewhere. Fixing this mess is going to require a major correction in the lifestyle of the average American. It's going to be painful for almost everyone. Other than the obscenely wealthy who couldn't tell you within $1M what their net worth was, everyone will take a hit because everything will get more expensive. And a lot of people won't like it. In fact they're going to actively try to reverse it because they like their easy credit and cheap Chinese shit. We're going to see a lot of politicians promising to bring back the good times and it won't be confined to one party.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

You mean there's no trickledown in Trickledown economics, Reaganomics?

there is. it's just trickling to other countries.