The Middle Class RADICALLY shinking

[Svnla]

Repost?

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2090275

 

[Zebo]

Repost?

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2090275

LMAO. And I even replied there, hahaaaaa

 

[Zebo]

The equity market is a mere fraction of the bond market, isn't it? What are the ownership statistics of bonds - anyone know?


While a bad thing, this isn't as nefarious as it sounds. Banks generally aren't in the business of owning property - this is stuff they're eager to sell.

I think the trade issue might be somewhat alleviated by insisting on fair trade as opposed to free trade. The public radio show This American Life has this fantastic episode called David And Goliath where the second act is about Cambodia's efforts to compete as a nation that allowed unionization and higher labour standards for the garment industry, in return for trade access to the U.S. While insightful, it's also rather depressing.

I have no prob with fair trade. As in trading with others who have similar political, religious, organizing, and freedoms as we have.... those were a hell of a fight to get...lots of people died! Freetrade is nothing more than race to from whence we came. See middle ages.

Is that what you mean?

 

[sandorski]

LMAO. And I even replied there, hahaaaaa

That thread is about a shrinking Middle Class. This thread is about a shinking Middle Class. Repost not found...

 

[StageLeft]

It's more like the "elites" have subverted democratic governments as an enemy to “market efficiency" and will keep moving for all the marbles.

As I've said and will keep repeating, their lobbyists are destroying the legislative process and the political discussion in the US. Who here can tell me honestly that the laws passed in the past 30 years have benefited the US in the ways the laws passed in the prior 30 have? Lobbyist is ingrained and injurious in the extreme, corporations wine and dine and then pay for ads to tell us what to think. It's a fvcking scam and the United States' political system is for sale to the highest bidder.

I don't know the answer but tell me with a straight face this wouldn't happen: Congress starts seriously thinking about raising tariffs or knocking off the ability for corps to hire foreign workers. And what will you see? You'll see some stereotypical Midwestern American family talking about how they are not going to be able to afford to pay more for their goods at Walmart, Target, etc. and "things are hard enough as it is". And many would take the hook, line, sinker and beg for seconds.

My wife and I don't plan to have children for reasons outside of this thread, but I would be lying if I said that this has ABSOLUTELY nothing to with that decision. Of course, sustainability doesn't even enter the conscious of most American "breeders", part of which is why this place is doomed.

Probably true. I have kids despite concerns about the future because I am sure millions of parents before me have worried about it, too. Sometimes their worries were founded, most times not. Life can be scary and it can be scarier bringing in those completely beholden to your protection, but it's what we do. If I thought a genocide would sweep the nation in a decade I'd not have done it but I think we'll be ok despite any possible generational toils along the way

I still think we could reset the world economy in a much gentler way if we had true leaders that could effectively communicate the need, but I think that's too much to expect. To be a leader these days, you have to outspend and lie better than your opponent.

Agree. Find me a senator who eschews lobbying money and I'll show you a guy who, well, isn't a senator. By the time politicians get to a real state of power they've been epically corrupted by the system. It's why when a guy like the NJ governor comes along people have a stiffy for him. Holy crap, really a guy who speaks out against how things have always have been and, more, when he gets in office he actually keeps most of his promises? Hold me, I'm going to pass out. It's sad, but that's how it is.

 

[Jhhnn]

You mean there's no trickledown in Trickledown economics, Reaganomics?

Color me shocked, truly shocked... and I'm really really sure that the people who promoted it for all it was worth are shocked, too...

What's missing from this conversation is the central part of the problem, which is and has been for a very long time a Gawd Almighty Dollar that's massively overvalued. It's highly beneficial to offshoring capitalists, who get huge value for their investment, and has been, up to a point, for american consumers as well... up to the point where more debt won't cover the loss of opportunity, jobs and capital. The low price of imports doesn't matter if you can't pay for them because you don't have a job.

The only reason that dollar valuation didn't plummet with the crash in real estate equities is that most foreign investors put their money in the GSE's... the first to be bailed out by the Bush Admin... If big money dollar investments turn useless, so will the dollar... Can't have that... the last drop of economic goodness hasn't been sucked out of the american economy. not yet, anyway.

We'll know when it has been, because a dollar will suddenly buy only a dime's worth of foreign goods, and those will be the only goods available.

Surprise! Now you're truly fucked, like a lot of economies that served as practice for the really big score, the looting of the US economy...

 

[BoberFett]

So, your claim is that if the U.S. market were truly "free," there'd be no problems in the U.S. associated with competition from Chinese and Indian workers?

Please - oh wise one - explain specifically what missing aspect of "free" in U.S. markets is the key to full employment and prosperity for the American middle class.

It's not a free market because we have OSHA, pollution and minimum wage laws among others. It's an inherently unfree market. There's no way we can compete with third world nations on price.

I'm not advocating a particular solution, but trying to pin this on the free market is ridiculous. It's because we tried to integrate our highly controlled market with foreign markets that is far more free than our own. Failure was assured from the start.

 

[BoberFett]

Living quite well, thank you!

And I bet you his parent would love to make $1/day. The whole family could eat on that.

Wage inflation and increased standard of living in the US priced us out of the global market.

Hate it all you want, but it's a fact.

 

[BoberFett]

Essentially, conservatives are asking the American middle class to compete with this type of crushing poverty and desperation and we'll meet somewhere in the middle.

Wasn't it Obama himself who said that we can't drive our cars and run our A/C and expect the world to let us or something along those lines? Isn't it the left who think we have a duty to take care of the world and take care of the poor and suffering?

It sounds like the left wants us to meet somewhere in the middle. Americans should live a lower lifestyle and the rest of the world should live better than they do. It's an admirable goal. But now you're trying to make it sound like a bad thing and pin it on "conservatives" when it fact it's the exact opposite.

 

[rchiu]

No shit the middle class is shrinking, but why blame free trade? There is free trade since the 90's and we have several boom bust cycles since then. Why cry about free trade now?

The reason middle class is shrinking is because the economy sucks right now. Unemployment rate is still at close to 10% and that's what's hurting middle class. And if my memory serve me correctly, it all started with the real estate bubble, leading to banking crisis, leading to credit crunch, leading to consumer confidence hit and leading to high unemployment rate....hmm let me see yeap, free trade caused all these.

And let's be honest, private companies has no obligation to provide jobs to American, they exist simply for profit. You want to keep job in American, well give companies a reason do to so. If American is efficient, if American has the engineering, CS and bunch of high demand job skills, if American government provide incentives, then job will stay.

Or you can be communist and force companies to do things for the great good of society, and yeap we all know how those policies turned out for everyone involved.

 

[iGas]

It is a bit ironic that America was out to destroy Communism and promotes Capitalism, but now it is Capitalism that is destroying America.

 

[drebo]

Protectionism guys, we need it badly, believe it or not, that's the only answer... it will bring many bad things in the short run but will do a lot of good in the long run.

If you want to collapse the economy and cause hyperinflation, protectionism is the way to do it.

Hint: the "global marketplace" is not what is destroying the American middle class. The American middle class is destroying itself, with the encouragement of the government. Entitlement attitudes and "we're better than them" attitudes are destroying the middle class. To the government, the middle class represents self-sufficiency, so of course they want to allow it to be destroyed by encouraging the very lines of thinking that are destroying the middle class (and, coincidentally, are being espoused in this thread).

Pro tip: place blame where blame is due; look in a mirror.

 

[dmcowen674]

If you want to collapse the economy and cause hyperinflation, protectionism is the way to do it.

Hint: the "global marketplace" is not what is destroying the American middle class. The American middle class is destroying itself, with the blessings of the government.

Oh come on

If total collapse and hyperinflation is what it takes to take a dent out of the upper class punks that hate America that have done this to the country then so be it.

 

[drebo]

Oh come on

If total collapse and hyperinflation is what it takes to take a dent out of the upper class punks that hate America that have done this to the country then so be it.

I know I'm going to regret replying to a dmcowen post, but:

If the rich and superrich really hated America, they'd move away and we'd be colossally fucked. Instead, they support America by taking their money and donating it to charities, spending it, and investing it in American businesses.

It's not their fault that people have the attitude that they're worth more than they actually are.

 

[jackace]

I know I'm going to regret replying to a dmcowen post, but:

If the rich and superrich really hated America, they'd move away and we'd be colossally fucked. Instead, they support America by taking their money and donating it to charities, spending it, and investing it in American businesses.

It's not their fault that people have the attitude that they're worth more than they actually are.

It' funny how the American consumer is the target market for most American businesses, but many of those same businesses either ship the jobs overseas or refuse to pay many of the American workers enough money to live without handouts from the Government.

 

[gingermeggs]

Soon you will become comrades with your brothers and sisters across the globe,
you have suckered so long off the tit of the Bourgeois'
now you learn of their insatiable appetite for wealth and control of the masses,
They will jump ship, but we will follow the foxes tail and send in the jack russels'
Billy Bragg is one hell of terrier!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhmfQhtszf0&feature=related
This colony is permanent!
You didn't lose in Vietnam, you won!
The scarlet banner gets brighter with the blood of the innocent!

Now if capitalism had better standards I would off been it's greatest soldier!
But now after slaving half me life for really fuck all!
I said my grandpapppy was dead right in his left!
ps- I don't mind the slavin part, it's just the who benefits from it that hurts!
HELL i was born to slave...I'm slavic'

 

[gingermeggs]

It' funny how the American consumer is the target market for most American businesses, but many of those same businesses either ship the jobs overseas or refuse to pay many of the American workers enough money to live without handouts from the Government.

It's like they want the whole world to be like that, but some have a good conscience that impedes it being possible.
Throwing shit into landfill while others starve, rape and kill to provide it!

 

[gingermeggs]

I know I'm going to regret replying to a dmcowen post, but:

If the rich and superrich really hated America, they'd move away and we'd be colossally fucked. Instead, they support America by taking their money and donating it to charities, spending it, and investing it in American businesses.

It's not their fault that people have the attitude that they're worth more than they actually are.

If Dave had a physical real disease you could believe in that yes?
you would toss him a coin and feel better for your own prosperity'
Fucked for how long?
You can't keep a good man down!
The regret is your own self-hate.

 

[gingermeggs]

and i bet you his parent would love to make $1/day. The whole family could eat on that.

Wage inflation and increased standard of living in the us priced us out of the global market.

Hate it all you want, but it's a fact.

and cunts still want to say there is a god!
If that's true' it is a greenback!
what is money?

 

[gingermeggs]

If you want to collapse the economy and cause hyperinflation, protectionism is the way to do it.

Hint: the "global marketplace" is not what is destroying the American middle class. The American middle class is destroying itself, with the encouragement of the government. Entitlement attitudes and "we're better than them" attitudes are destroying the middle class. To the government, the middle class represents self-sufficiency, so of course they want to allow it to be destroyed by encouraging the very lines of thinking that are destroying the middle class (and, coincidentally, are being espoused in this thread).

Pro tip: place blame where blame is due; look in a mirror.

Your dead right!
They bought into the cheaper imported product, but why is that product cheaper is the real question!

 

[God Mode]

The problem is with corporations that treat America like its their whore. Stomping grounds for profit no matter how much collateral damage there is.

 

[gingermeggs]

The problem is with corporations that treat America like its their whore. Stomping grounds for profit no matter how much collateral damage there is.

You are lost!
Profit is all that matter FULL STOP!
money has lost it's intent and has been hyjacked'
EVERYONE HAS BECOME A WHORE TO PROFIT!
The yanks made themselves off Celtic courage, now it's time to answer with more then a handout lads!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cehLiGxguQI&feature=related
United or divided states?
cw2?
What really is to understand who really makes production possible!
Yes the proud janitor is a wise man!

 

[BoberFett]

Just because it seems that everyone forgot...

American consumers could have nipped this in the bud by buying American made products when the great outsourcing began. Everyone wanted their cheap shit though, and now we're paying the price. We've imported cheap electronics and shoes, and exported our future.

You can blame those big, nasty, evil, corporations and their wealthy overlords if you want. But they just gave Americans what they begged for. More cheap shit.

 

[StageLeft]

No shit the middle class is shrinking, but why blame free trade? There is free trade since the 90's and we have several boom bust cycles since then. Why cry about free trade now?

I don't know if it is free trade but I do know that the middle class has been running more and more desperately on credit trying to keep the party going and ensuring a worse hangover. Net worth sucks, debt is high and growing on a personal and federal level for years now, becoming a greater part of the GDP.

It is a bit ironic that America was out to destroy Communism and promotes Capitalism, but now it is Capitalism that is destroying America.

I think it's greatly corruption, too, overt corruption via lobbying.

It's not their fault that people have the attitude that they're worth more than they actually are.

This is a cop-out. People have always had this opinion. What has changed? Why are the lower/middle classes flat or doing worse when the rich (who also have inflated opinions) doing better? The dynamics are not the same.

American consumers could have nipped this in the bud by buying American made products when the great outsourcing began. Everyone wanted their cheap shit though, and now we're paying the price. We've imported cheap electronics and shoes, and exported our future.

You can blame those big, nasty, evil, corporations and their wealthy overlords if you want. But they just gave Americans what they begged for. More cheap shit.

The tragedy of the commons easily predicted it; you cannot expect individuals to act for the benefit of all when they know that their individual actions influence their own life more than everybody else's; each person in the group knows this, acts selfishly, and the group fails. Thus it's incumbent a unitary power exert force against their actions in some manner.

 

[BoberFett]

I don't know if it is free trade but I do know that the middle class has been running more and more desperately on credit trying to keep the party going and ensuring a worse hangover. Net worth sucks, debt is high and growing on a personal and federal level for years now, becoming a greater part of the GDP.I think it's greatly corruption, too, overt corruption via lobbying.This is a cop-out. People have always had this opinion. What has changed? Why are the lower/middle classes flat or doing worse when the rich (who also have inflated opinions) doing better? The dynamics are not the same.

The tragedy of the commons easily predicted it; you cannot expect individuals to act for the benefit of all when they know that their individual actions influence their own life more than everybody else's; each person in the group knows this, acts selfishly, and the group fails. Thus it's incumbent a unitary power exert force against their actions in some manner.

That may well be true. But the genie is out of the bottle, and he's not going to go back in without a fight. Tax the rich all you want, it won't do anything long term because we still have massive trade deficits with relatively poor nations. Enact protectionist measures to fight that and everything will sipmly cost more so any increase in wages is nullified.

Tax the rich. Feed the poor. Until there are no rich no more.

We now return you to your previously scheduled lifestyle.