The Middle Class RADICALLY shinking

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
You are overpaid, get too many benefits and other costs keeping you around.....plus there are a lot smarter guys in India and China who are willing to work twice has hard for a tenth of your salary......and probably do a better job than you do to.

War NAFTA AND GATT silly sheep.

What's gonna be real fun is when gov't can't borrow anymore when 2/3 of people are dependent on gov't spending to eat. Instead of Mary had a little lamb it will be Silence of the lambs.

http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticke...d-out-heres-the-stats-to-prove-it-520657.html

The Middle Class in America Is Radically Shrinking. Here Are the Stats to Prove it
Posted Jul 15, 2010 02:25pm EDT by Michael Snyder in Recession


From The Business Insider

Editor's note: Michael Snyder is editor of theeconomiccollapseblog.com

The 22 statistics detailed here prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the middle class is being systematically wiped out of existence in America.

The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer at a staggering rate. Once upon a time, the United States had the largest and most prosperous middle class in the history of the world, but now that is changing at a blinding pace.

So why are we witnessing such fundamental changes? Well, the globalism and "free trade" that our politicians and business leaders insisted would be so good for us have had some rather nasty side effects. It turns out that they didn't tell us that the "global economy" would mean that middle class American workers would eventually have to directly compete for jobs with people on the other side of the world where there is no minimum wage and very few regulations. The big global corporations have greatly benefited by exploiting third world labor pools over the last several decades, but middle class American workers have increasingly found things to be very tough. (ed note Yes they did tell you but people like Paul Craig Roberts and other non shill economists were marginalized by corporate media)

Here are the statistics to prove it:

• 83 percent of all U.S. stocks are in the hands of 1 percent of the people.
• 61 percent of Americans "always or usually" live paycheck to paycheck, which was up from 49 percent in 2008 and 43 percent in 2007.
• 66 percent of the income growth between 2001 and 2007 went to the top 1% of all Americans.
• 36 percent of Americans say that they don't contribute anything to retirement savings.
• A staggering 43 percent of Americans have less than $10,000 saved up for retirement.
• 24 percent of American workers say that they have postponed their planned retirement age in the past year.
• Over 1.4 million Americans filed for personal bankruptcy in 2009, which represented a 32 percent increase over 2008.
• Only the top 5 percent of U.S. households have earned enough additional income to match the rise in housing costs since 1975.
• For the first time in U.S. history, banks own a greater share of residential housing net worth in the United States than all individual Americans put together.
• In 1950, the ratio of the average executive's paycheck to the average worker's paycheck was about 30 to 1. Since the year 2000, that ratio has exploded to between 300 to 500 to one.
• As of 2007, the bottom 80 percent of American households held about 7% of the liquid financial assets.
• The bottom 50 percent of income earners in the United States now collectively own less than 1 percent of the nation’s wealth.
• Average Wall Street bonuses for 2009 were up 17 percent when compared with 2008.
• In the United States, the average federal worker now earns 60% MORE than the average worker in the private sector.
• The top 1 percent of U.S. households own nearly twice as much of America's corporate wealth as they did just 15 years ago.
• In America today, the average time needed to find a job has risen to a record 35.2 weeks.
• More than 40 percent of Americans who actually are employed are now working in service jobs, which are often very low paying.
• or the first time in U.S. history, more than 40 million Americans are on food stamps, and the U.S. Department of Agriculture projects that number will go up to 43 million Americans in 2011.
• This is what American workers now must compete against: in China a garment worker makes approximately 86 cents an hour and in Cambodia a garment worker makes approximately 22 cents an hour.
• Approximately 21 percent of all children in the United States are living below the poverty line in 2010 - the highest rate in 20 years.
• Despite the financial crisis, the number of millionaires in the United States rose a whopping 16 percent to 7.8 million in 2009.
• The top 10 percent of Americans now earn around 50 percent of our national income.

Giant Sucking Sound

The reality is that no matter how smart, how strong, how educated or how hard working American workers are, they just cannot compete with people who are desperate to put in 10 to 12 hour days at less than a dollar an hour on the other side of the world. After all, what corporation in their right mind is going to pay an American worker 10 times more (plus benefits) to do the same job? The world is fundamentally changing. Wealth and power are rapidly becoming concentrated at the top and the big global corporations are making massive amounts of money. Meanwhile, the American middle class is being systematically wiped out of existence as U.S. workers are slowly being merged into the new "global" labor pool.

What do most Americans have to offer in the marketplace other than their labor? Not much. The truth is that most Americans are absolutely dependent on someone else giving them a job. But today, U.S. workers are "less attractive" than ever. Compared to the rest of the world, American workers are extremely expensive, and the government keeps passing more rules and regulations seemingly on a monthly basis that makes it even more difficult to conduct business in the United States.

So corporations are moving operations out of the U.S. at breathtaking speed. Since the U.S. government does not penalize them for doing so, there really is no incentive for them to stay.

What has developed is a situation where the people at the top are doing quite well, while most Americans are finding it increasingly difficult to make it. There are now about six unemployed Americans for every new job opening in the United States, and the number of "chronically unemployed" is absolutely soaring. There simply are not nearly enough jobs for everyone.

Many of those who are able to get jobs are finding that they are making less money than they used to. In fact, an increasingly large percentage of Americans are working at low wage retail and service jobs.

But you can't raise a family on what you make flipping burgers at McDonald's or on what you bring in from greeting customers down at the local Wal-Mart.

The truth is that the middle class in America is dying -- and once it is gone it will be incredibly difficult to rebuild.
 
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boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
He can't. What you do is reset the system. You collapse it and build anew.

Edit: Looks like I replied to what is your sig. But, your sig ties in with your post.
 
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Kirby

Lifer
Apr 10, 2006
12,028
2
0
Not sure about you, but I'm trying to get out of the middle class as fast as I can. ;)
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
In all honesty I don't believe America should be able to hire non-american workers.

That was a creation the wealthy designed to ensure themselves more security.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
688
126
In all honesty I don't believe America should be able to hire non-american workers.

That was a creation the wealthy designed to ensure themselves more security.

I know some people will jump all over me for saying this, but free trade was a mistake of biblical proportions. As you say, it was a ploy by the wealthy to ensure themselves more money and security.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
Fleecing of America and stupid consumerism is a major factor as well.

Why are workers in other countries willing to work for a dollar an hour? Because they can live quite well on that. Their cost of living is dramatically reduced. They don't spend as much and what the do buy is ridiculously cheap compared to America.

Take just about any product available in America and compare it in price to products in 3rd world countries. Unless it is a high end electronic, it is typically more expensive to purchase it here than in China or India. Why? Companies know consumerism is ingrained in the average American. American's with a large middle class before had a large spending power. They were able to afford a little more and did so often. Heads of corporations saw that and decided to charge more and more while moving production elsewhere.

Eventually jobs will have to come back here or the price of products will have to change as the amount of purchasing power in America decreases.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
He can't. What you do is reset the system. You collapse it and build anew.

Edit: Looks like I replied to what is your sig. But, your sig ties in with your post.

What do you mean reset? A reset will be forced. And disastrous.
http://www.zerohedge.com/forum/government-bubble-spells-trouble

Problem is never before in history of USA has so many people been dependent on government spending. It's half of GDP! As production and private economy collapsed and people can't borrow anymore to maintain 10-30 year illusions, government has been forced to take over control of 'production' via debt to maintain the functionality of their people they oversee. This is unsustainable and there will be a lot of hurt when checks stop coming - from gov't contractors to welfare queens. I suggest watching a few hours of LA riots over at utube for a glimpse.

Well at least our troops are good to go on urban combat now.
 
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Feb 24, 2001
14,513
4
81
You are overpaid, get too many benefits and other costs keeping you around.....plus there are a lot smarter guys in India and China who are willing to work twice has hard for a tenth of your salary......and probably do a better job than you do to.

I hold this view, though quite unpopular...

The rest of the world is in position for their comeuppance, and it has to be at the cost of those who earn too much, for working too little in comparison.

A guy living in mud hut is willing to ride the dung bus to the factory to make $1 a day is hard to compete with.

The average American lives far too well and in such excess that it is simply unsustainable given the global workforce.

The tide will shift back once people in China and India start demanding localized versions of OSHA, minimum wage, etc. Unfortunately, that will be two or three generations away.

What can the average person do? Not much. We switched from agriculture to manufacturing being the big employer. With manufacturing being on the way out, physical services may be about the only thing not offshore.

Then again, bomb disposal robots can be remotely operated to make pancakes from scratch...

http://www.santafenewmexican.com/Story/Robot-challenge
 
Nov 29, 2006
15,922
4,493
136
I know some people will jump all over me for saying this, but free trade was a mistake of biblical proportions. As you say, it was a ploy by the wealthy to ensure themselves more money and security.

We have usually disagreed in the past but i 100% agree with you here. All they did was create an uneven playing field for the whole world. 1st world costs with 3rd world pay.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
I hold this view, though quite unpopular...

The rest of the world is in position for their comeuppance, and it has to be at the cost of those who earn too much, for working too little in comparison.

A guy living in mud hut is willing to ride the dung bus to the factory to make $1 a day is hard to compete with.

The average American lives far too well and in such excess that it is simply unsustainable given the global workforce.

The tide will shift back once people in China and India start demanding localized versions of OSHA, minimum wage, etc. Unfortunately, that will be two or three generations away.

What can the average person do? Not much. We switched from agriculture to manufacturing being the big employer. With manufacturing being on the way out, physical services may be about the only thing not offshore.

Then again, bomb disposal robots can be remotely operated to make pancakes from scratch...

http://www.santafenewmexican.com/Story/Robot-challenge

That's only because we choose to compete with them, or more accurately our capital overlords told us it was the thing to do. Neat trick. Let US consumer borrow like mad, get cheap goods, then pull rug out from under them. Now we find ourselves in position we are in as illustrated in article above. I'd say poor choice. Despite being most efficient choice in the very short term but it makes no account of human element. Do we want a society of fabulous wealth next to misery and destitution like so many of these "factories to the world" I think not. Also Our social contract theorists such as Locke/Smith etc talked of wealth of nations and how it's a poor choice in the long term as well. Here is quote from Jerome in another thread who says it better than I could.

Originally Posted by cwjerome View Post
I think of it from a Lockean perspective, that a person has a right to estate, or property, to survive, protect your life, and make it a life worth living. Don't be confused with a "life worth living" from a modern perspective as it doesn't accurately relate to dollars. Locke believes the reason we have a natural right (ie it's a requirement of man's nature to have it) to property is essentially to advance Man, or society, and the reason government protects that right to property is to protect humanity.

We often twist this idea into a very individualistic, winner-takes-all theme. But Locke clearly says people can use what they have and take what they need/want (legally) as long as you leave as much and as good as you've taken. You have as much as you can be productive with. Much of the settlement (and taking of Indian lands) was based on this idea, with people saying the land is going to waste, and God certainly doesn't like waste. If you cannot make it productive you have to give it back.

People do not understand the higher law purposes for property. It's not about having the largest number of marbles at the end of the game, and that predatory, clever people get to take all the marbles. Locke talked about the difference between wealth and riches. He talked about how property serves the larger body and how abuse of property gets it taken away. Locke used the term commonwealth. COMMONwealth. Adam Smith talked about the Wealth of Nations, not the wealth of individuals.

Before anyone tries to dismiss me they should know that I'm a smaller government, lower taxes conservative, but classical meaning of property has been distorted.

And you're dreaming about China becoming like USA once was. The social contract theory is not there and today capitalists just move when it gets there. Thailand was devastated when manufactures pulled out in the 90's when workers demanded rights. It's more like the "elites" have subverted democratic governments as an enemy to “market efficiency" and will keep moving for all the marbles.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Not sure about you, but I'm trying to get out of the middle class as fast as I can. ;)

Everyone I know is (well except one of my deadbeat brothers) Too bad hard work is only a small piece of the equation. In reality, success in the market is about market position. What you control & competition.

Currently, with banks freezing SBA loans, schools shutting and raising tuition, high skilled workers being laid off , people in general, control a whole hell of a lot less.

Competition is obvious. Free trade. Capital reqs. Lots of folks taking anything. etc

Don't be surprised when you see engineers working at home depot for every one that works at Boeing which in and of itself can't continue with borrowing what we do.. Need a vibrant private economy to sustain even the "untouchable" defense contractors.
 
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allthatisman

Senior member
Dec 21, 2008
542
0
0
That's only because we choose to compete with them, or more accurately our capital overlords told us it was the thing to do. Neat trick. Let US consumer borrow like mad, get cheap goods, then pull rug out from under them. Now we find ourselves in position we are in as illustrated in article above. I'd say poor choice. Despite being most efficient choice in the very short term but it makes no account of human element. Do we want a society of fabulous wealth next to misery and destitution like so many of these "factories to the world" I think not. Also Our social contract theorists such as Locke/Smith etc talked of wealth of nations and how it's a poor choice in the long term as well. Here is quote from Jerome in another thread who says it better than I could.



And you're dreaming about China becoming like USA once was. The social contract theory is not there and today capitalists just move when it gets there. Thailand was devastated when manufactures pulled out in the 90's when workers demanded rights. It's more like the "elites" have subverted democratic governments as an enemy to “market efficiency" and will keep moving for all the marbles.

Very smart post. Almost too smart for the likes of this forum(myself included, lol)...

I honestly think that things will only start to change once violence from the lower-lower middle class starts happening on a national level. Urban terrorism(Fight Club style) will probably be the only way things will ever change. Otherwise, our future is in the hands of the politicians. No matter the intentions or the will, Obama will never be able to do what even the most optimistic believer thinks he can accomplish, simply because the "power" is not in his hands.

We saw just a glipse of this when people were protesting and beating on the gates of the mansions that the AIG execs live in. This generation can't handle a great depression, plain and simple.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
What do you mean reset? A reset will be forced. And disastrous.
http://www.zerohedge.com/forum/government-bubble-spells-trouble
You collapse the financial system. It's happening right now in countries in Europe. Greece is the country garnering the most attention. Before you say they've been bailed out, the money 'lent' to them to keep them afloat doesn't exist. It's funny money.

Anyway, it's too difficult if not impossible to raise the standard of living of those portions of the world driving the worldwide economic system right now. So you take the other route which is you bring down the rest of the world. You can't just tell people why it's going to happen and how it's going to happen - it just has to happen. Forced? Yes it will be forced, but it won't appear to be forced. It will appear to be the natural but regretful outcome of the times we're in. There's plenty of people to point the blame at. But assessing blame will take a back seat.

Disastrous - absolutely. It will be as far from pretty as it can get. But remember the ideology of the people that are behind it. The earth is dying. People are killing the earth. Some people have too much and more people have too little. That this is a necessary way to level the playing field. And so on and so on. The ardent followers actually think they're going to benefit from this, but they fail to comprehend that they're part of the group with too much.

I know this sounds like conspiracy theory shit. I know many will think I'm sitting here pounding madly at the keyboard in a tirade. I assure you I'm not. This is a possible scenario. A scenario that I run through my mind from time to time.

I had a long philosophical post a couple years back where I talked about how the direction the progressives want to take the nation and the world is to a great degree where we must eventually end up. But I'd rather have a gradual progression to those ideals than a sudden 'fundamental transformation' to quote someone in the news a lot lately. Besides, the scenario that's going to be played out on the quick is going to cause a lot of upheaval and misery at the very least and I haven't seen a compelling argument for it.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Very smart post. Almost too smart for the likes of this forum(myself included, lol)...

I honestly think that things will only start to change once violence from the lower-lower middle class starts happening on a national level. Urban terrorism(Fight Club style) will probably be the only way things will ever change. Otherwise, our future is in the hands of the politicians. No matter the intentions or the will, Obama will never be able to do what even the most optimistic believer thinks he can accomplish, simply because the "power" is not in his hands.

We saw just a glipse of this when people were protesting and beating on the gates of the mansions that the AIG execs live in. This generation can't handle a great depression, plain and simple.

If it gets to that - Most live in areas that can be cordoned off easy. Jupiter Island, Hamptons etc.. Plus our combat troops are prepared for urban combate from taking areas in Iraq. Will be interesting for sure.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
You collapse the financial system. It's happening right now in countries in Europe. Greece is the country garnering the most attention. Before you say they've been bailed out, the money 'lent' to them to keep them afloat doesn't exist. It's funny money.

Anyway, it's too difficult if not impossible to raise the standard of living of those portions of the world driving the worldwide economic system right now. So you take the other route which is you bring down the rest of the world. You can't just tell people why it's going to happen and how it's going to happen - it just has to happen. Forced? Yes it will be forced, but it won't appear to be forced. It will appear to be the natural but regretful outcome of the times we're in. There's plenty of people to point the blame at. But assessing blame will take a back seat.

Disastrous - absolutely. It will be as far from pretty as it can get. But remember the ideology of the people that are behind it. The earth is dying. People are killing the earth. Some people have too much and more people have too little. That this is a necessary way to level the playing field. And so on and so on. The ardent followers actually think they're going to benefit from this, but they fail to comprehend that they're part of the group with too much.

I know this sounds like conspiracy theory shit. I know many will think I'm sitting here pounding madly at the keyboard in a tirade. I assure you I'm not. This is a possible scenario. A scenario that I run through my mind from time to time.

I had a long philosophical post a couple years back where I talked about how the direction the progressives want to take the nation and the world is to a great degree where we must eventually end up. But I'd rather have a gradual progression to those ideals than a sudden 'fundamental transformation' to quote someone in the news a lot lately. Besides, the scenario that's going to be played out on the quick is going to cause a lot of upheaval and misery at the very least and I haven't seen a compelling argument for it.

You're know what's up. Prepare.
Long read but basically says what you're saying.
http://spectator.org/archives/2010/07/16/americas-ruling-class-and-the/print
 

DesiPower

Lifer
Nov 22, 2008
15,299
740
126
Protectionism guys, we need it badly, believe it or not, that's the only answer... it will bring many bad things in the short run but will do a lot of good in the long run.
 

allthatisman

Senior member
Dec 21, 2008
542
0
0
If it gets to that - Most live in areas that can be cordoned off easy. Jupiter Island, Hamptons etc.. Plus our combat troops are prepared for urban combate from taking areas in Iraq. Will be interesting for sure.

The troops you refer to are part of the lower-lower middle class, and most of the enlisted Army and Marines are minorities, some, if not more of which know poverty all too well... which is why they joined up in the first place.

My wife and I don't plan to have children for reasons outside of this thread, but I would be lying if I said that this has ABSOLUTELY nothing to with that decision. Of course, sustainability doesn't even enter the conscious of most American "breeders", part of which is why this place is doomed.
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
t turns out that they didn't tell us that the "global economy" would mean that middle class American workers would eventually have to directly compete for jobs with people on the other side of the world where there is no minimum wage and very few regulations. The big global corporations have greatly benefited by exploiting third world labor pools over the last several decades, but middle class American workers have increasingly found things to be very tough.

Sounds like government is the main problem.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
Where are all the right-wingers in this thread? How come they're not telling us how GREAT the free market is?

According to some on these forums (don't want to name any names), if 150 million American workers just got the "right attitude," every single one of them could be wealthy, even though their Chinese and Indian counterparts are willing to do everything Americans can do for pennies on the dollar. Really, the free market is magic. Ya just gotta believe.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
I know some people will jump all over me for saying this, but free trade was a mistake of biblical proportions. As you say, it was a ploy by the wealthy to ensure themselves more money and security.

I totally believe it. Just like they still insist there are not enough american workers for engineering jobs. It's not that there are not enough, it's that they aren't willing to work for the scraps that are being thrown to them.

It's not fair to anyone. I wholeheartedly think that all visas for work should be halted until our unemployment drops back to normal levels. Even then I do not agree with them and my wife was an H1-B, they brought her in for a salary that was half ours for a normal 40 hour week. They had her working 60 hours. They also did not offer her the same benefits we got (which were nothing). I expect this is normal as I have talked to others that had like experiences...it can't be a rarity.

The problem is without paying our workers so little it become a circle: they can't buy, profits go down, layoffs happen....everything then adjusts over supply/demand theory and then more production is needed, more workers are hired, people start to buy and then wages go down and prices up.

There is a lot more to it all, but it's all about no one wanting to take a hit ever. Our borrowing is out of control, our work ethic sucks, and our company loyalty to it's workers is non-existant.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
That's only because we choose to compete with them, or more accurately our capital overlords told us it was the thing to do. Neat trick. Let US consumer borrow like mad, get cheap goods, then pull rug out from under them. Now we find ourselves in position we are in as illustrated in article above. I'd say poor choice. Despite being most efficient choice in the very short term but it makes no account of human element. Do we want a society of fabulous wealth next to misery and destitution like so many of these "factories to the world" I think not. Also Our social contract theorists such as Locke/Smith etc talked of wealth of nations and how it's a poor choice in the long term as well. Here is quote from Jerome in another thread who says it better than I could.



And you're dreaming about China becoming like USA once was. The social contract theory is not there and today capitalists just move when it gets there. Thailand was devastated when manufactures pulled out in the 90's when workers demanded rights. It's more like the "elites" have subverted democratic governments as an enemy to “market efficiency" and will keep moving for all the marbles.

Nike prides itself on bringing new factories to third world countries, but one of their execs also revealed that they will close a plant and move when labor hits 25 cents an hour. With free trade and multinational corporations we're in a race to the bottom.

Interesting thing about the number of people now on government assistance - straight out of Saul Alinsky's Rules For Radicals, his plan for progressives to bring down capitalism, is to get as many people as possible on government assistance and overwhelm our ability to provide for them. The crash will then allow the progressives to bring about the same authoritarian Marxist societal changes that revolutionaries have brought about in other countries, including replacing the individual and the family with the State as first in importance. What we're seeing now is a dangerous agreement in direction between major parts of the Republican Party and major parts of the Democrat Party, and it leads to a society totally dependent on government. Whether the corporations or government ultimately win majority power it seems that most of us (or at least our children and grandchildren) are headed for the new serfdom.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
688
126
Where are all the right-wingers in this thread? How come they're not telling us how GREAT the free market is?

According to some on these forums (don't want to name any names), if 150 million American workers just got the "right attitude," every single one of them could be wealthy, even though their Chinese and Indian counterparts are willing to do everything Americans can do for pennies on the dollar. Really, the free market is magic. Ya just gotta believe.

You would probably count me among the "right-wingers," but what is happening in this country is wrong. The collapse of the middle class must not be allowed to continue or else, we could end up like any one of a number of third-world countries.

We can bash corporations and CEOs for their greed (most are guilty); we can bash foreign countries for allowing their workers to live in squalor and paying them peanuts (they do); but the reality is, our government and elected officials have let us down. It doesn't matter if it was a Republican or a Democrat; BOTH have screwed us over.
 
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dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Quote:
Originally Posted by blanghorst
I know some people will jump all over me for saying this, but free trade was a mistake of biblical proportions. As you say, it was a ploy by the wealthy to ensure themselves more money and security.


I totally believe it. Just like they still insist there are not enough american workers for engineering jobs. It's not that there are not enough, it's that they aren't willing to work for the scraps that are being thrown to them.

It's not fair to anyone. I wholeheartedly think that all visas for work should be halted until our unemployment drops back to normal levels. Even then I do not agree with them and my wife was an H1-B, they brought her in for a salary that was half ours for a normal 40 hour week. They had her working 60 hours. They also did not offer her the same benefits we got (which were nothing). I expect this is normal as I have talked to others that had like experiences...it can't be a rarity.

The problem is without paying our workers so little it become a circle: they can't buy, profits go down, layoffs happen....everything then adjusts over supply/demand theory and then more production is needed, more workers are hired, people start to buy and then wages go down and prices up.

There is a lot more to it all, but it's all about no one wanting to take a hit ever. Our borrowing is out of control, our work ethic sucks, and our company loyalty to it's workers is non-existant.

Wow Alk, impressive to see you admitting to something not happy about depsite personally gaining from it.

OK who hacked blang's account?