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The Microsoft Surface Tablet thread.

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pelov said:
That's up to the developer, ultimately. They can choose how they optimize it and how much they put in their application. Needless to say, it's going to require more work than the Android versions. I think that's also another reason developers have been wary of developing anything for Win8 at all. Which device should they develop for? What input? Pen? Keyboard/mouse? How's the gesture support? What's going to be the most popular format/device?

These are all questions that have a pretty significant say in what Metro's app selection will look like. Considering they also have to contend with the applications not within the Metro store in the x86 environment, I'd imagine that makes quite a few developers more than wary of transitioning to Win8 at all. Why buy into Win8/Metro if the user can just find another free application with 5 seconds of searching via Google?
Click to expand...

By far, the most amount of time spent developing an app for Android is testing it on multiple devices because Android OEMs are allowed to screw around with every part of the OS, down the the kernel. WinRT is far easier to develop for in that aspect, because at least you are guaranteed that code that runs on a Windows RT tablet should also run on a Windows 8 27" All-in-One.

All of the WinRT APIs are written to be input-agnostic unless you as a developer require granularity. If someone taps a button, I don't care if it's from a mouse or finger or stylus, but I do have the option to be specific if I want to. As far as I know, Android doesn't even have that specificity, as devices that support digitizers from Samsung like the Galaxy Note line have their own special SDKs.
 
Nvidiaguy07 said:
Halo, Gears of War, GFWL, any title that was released on 360 before PC for no reason.

Its no secret that MS would rather you buy games for xbox than for PC.
Click to expand...

Microsoft was the actual publisher of those games (i.e. they spent money), so I wouldn't exactly call that force. And a good number of developers release their games on consoles before PCs for the simple fact of piracy. That's not a force from Microsoft. That's a force from reality. You can read it from none other than Cliff Bleszinki himself about why there wasn't Gears of War 2 for the PC: http://www.totalvideogames.com/Gears-of-War-2/feature-13270.html
 
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dagamer34 said:
Microsoft was the actual publisher of those games (i.e. they spent money), so I wouldn't exactly call that force. And a good number of developers release their games on consoles before PCs for the simple fact of piracy. That's not a force from Microsoft. That's a force from reality. You can read it from none other than Cliff Bleszinki himself about why there wasn't Gears of War 2 for the PC: http://www.totalvideogames.com/Gears-of-War-2/feature-13270.html
Click to expand...

Yeah because everything that comes out of Cliff's mouth is the pure truth.. You do not hear Valve whine about piracy or refusing to release sequels on PC. Nor Stardock. http://www.ign.com/articles/2008/03/11/developer-stardock-says-piracy-isnt-killing-pc-gaming

I am offended by Cliff's insinuation that anyone with a high-end graphics card is a pirate. I would actually argue that anyone who has a high-end graphics card is obviously well-off enough to afford one and if they are that well off they probably have money for games, too.
 
runawayprisoner said:
Oh... the humanity...

Tablet: weighs less than 1.5lbs
Cover: weighs 0.46lbs

...now I understand their jumpy ad. You really need to be athletic and acrobatic in order to lift the thing. It's 25% heavier than an iPad 3.
Click to expand...

The most popular iPad keyboard, the Logitech Ultrathin Keyboard Cover, weighs 333g or 0.73lbs. So your point?
 
blastingcap said:
Yeah because everything that comes out of Cliff's mouth is the pure truth.. You do not hear Valve whine about piracy or refusing to release sequels on PC. Nor Stardock. http://www.ign.com/articles/2008/03/11/developer-stardock-says-piracy-isnt-killing-pc-gaming

I am offended by Cliff's insinuation that anyone with a high-end graphics card is a pirate. I would actually argue that anyone who has a high-end graphics card is obviously well-off enough to afford one and if they are that well off they probably have money for games, too.
Click to expand...

He said they were more likely to pirate as they understand things like torrents better than the casual gamer who would use an on-board video card. He's insulting enough without the help.
 
What does Microsoft get by going to ARM? It seems like they could have avoided all this and played to their strengths by working closely with Intel on x64 tablets. All of the numbers I've seen show Atom matching ARM performance. Microsoft and Intel would have known that a year ago. Why didn't they just scrap Windows RT and plan for $500 tablets with both the Windows Store and legacy programs? It seems like we will get these from other OEMs but it should have been Microsoft's launch platform. The real Windows 8 has a touch friendly UI on top with the power of a 20+ year old open ecosystem underneath.

The ideal I assume would be to have one OS platform across devices. x64 is the only instruction set that goes from 1W to 100W and Windows is already built around it. With the right Windows Phone like UI optimizations on small screens, Windows 9 could stretch from 4" devices to 30" displays. The only real problem I see is having 14nm smartphones that have the performance to run legacy windows applications but incompatible user interfaces (eg. running Photoshop but on a 1080p 4.5" touchscreen). Fix that with wireless display mirroring and bluetooth peripherals and 😀.

I don't see what would be wrong with this future 🙁
Microsoft could have built towards it with this launch instead of copying iOS and Android.
 
Zink said:
What does Microsoft get by going to ARM? It seems like they could have avoided all this and played to their strengths by working closely with Intel on x64 tablets. All of the numbers I've seen show Atom matching ARM performance. Microsoft and Intel would have known that a year ago. Why didn't they just scrap Windows RT and plan for $500 tablets with both the Windows Store and legacy programs? It seems like we will get these from other OEMs but it should have been Microsoft's launch platform. The real Windows 8 has a touch friendly UI on top with the power of a 20+ year old open ecosystem underneath.

The ideal I assume would be to have one OS platform across devices. x64 is the only instruction set that goes from 1W to 100W and Windows is already built around it. With the right Windows Phone like UI optimizations on small screens, Windows 9 could stretch from 4" devices to 30" displays. The only real problem I see is having 14nm smartphones that have the performance to run legacy windows applications but incompatible user interfaces (eg. running Photoshop but on a 1080p 4.5" touchscreen). Fix that with wireless display mirroring and bluetooth peripherals and 😀.

I don't see what would be wrong with this future 🙁
Microsoft could have built towards it with this launch instead of copying iOS and Android.
Click to expand...

Intel wasn't motivated to build the best low power, high performance, cost efficient mobile chips without a fire under their butts. And you know as soon as Windows on ARM was announced, the company had a collective "oh shit" moment.

Besides, I still think that Microsoft wanted a version of its operating system where it could get rid of the requirements of endlessly bending over backward to support legacy software. Extremely reduced risk of viruses and malware, brand new API framework, and a bold new UI as well.
 
My wife saw the Surface ad for the first time tonight. She's very tech un-savvy and generally has an eye at Apple products only because they're the popular thing to have. I've not told her about the Surface but as soon as she saw the commercial and the dancers clicking the keyboard on and off, she was instantly paying attention and even asked me what it was and how much. Very out of character for her.

Very anecdotal, but telling to me that the commercial is pretty eye-catching.
 
blurredvision said:
My wife saw the Surface ad for the first time tonight. She's very tech un-savvy and generally has an eye at Apple products only because they're the popular thing to have. I've not told her about the Surface but as soon as she saw the commercial and the dancers clicking the keyboard on and off, she was instantly paying attention and even asked me what it was and how much. Very out of character for her.

Very anecdotal, but telling to me that the commercial is pretty eye-catching.
Click to expand...

Forget the commercial, ever non-techie I know who I've shown the Win8 Consumer Preview has wanted it, and no I did not goad them into it or manage their expectations in any way.

Personally, I am on the fence about Metro. I can see how it is useful for basic tasks, but I have a lot of experience with the standard Windows interface. I don't find it very intuitive at all. I recently picked up a Windows Phone to play with (Samsung Focus 2, using it with that ST SIM I picked up for $5 😎) and it is ... ok. The experience is certainly smoother than anything I've ever had on Android, but it feels very very constrained, and I often struggle to figure out how to do what I want.

Regardless, I commend Microsoft for creating a truly novel UI. Here is hoping it doesn't come back and bite them like WebOS...
 
Oh well... This year (and the next) will be the turning point for MS. Maybe if this fails, they'll use their billions and force a Zombie Apocalypse on 12/21 to go out in shame...
 
Nvidiaguy07 said:
Halo, Gears of War, GFWL, any title that was released on 360 before PC for no reason.

Its no secret that MS would rather you buy games for xbox than for PC.
Click to expand...

Then there was Alan Wake, which in 2005 was the first PC game that was demoed to run on a quad core processor, and its looks at the time were revolutionary. Then Remedy signed with MS, the Xbox port had to come out first, and MS made them delay Alan Wake till 2012 for the PC. By which time it looked decidedly average at best.

MS bought Lionhead Studios, and Fable II for the PC was cancelled and became an Xbox exclusive.

Mechwarrior games weren't really suited for a console controller, so MS shutdown FASA studios, ending the popular and successful Mechwarrior series.

Flight sims and RTS games aren't popular on consoles so MS also shutdown ACES and Ensemble Studios. Microsoft beats the competition in combat flight sims, and then just stops making them. They basically killed an entire genre, because the Xbox can't play it.

They bought all these PC gaming studios, and then converted them to Xbox only studios, or just shut them down.

Then there were games that used Microsoft Gaming Zone. MS shut that down. So unless the publisher is still around to switch it to another online system you're out of luck, since MS shut it down. Don't ever rely on MS for PC games, or online play.

And those are just the big names that I liked. Who knows how many lesser games never made it to the PC or were delayed thanks to MS. MS gets to see the PC games in development before we do. The best they try to make Xbox exclusives.
 
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BladeVenom said:
Then there was Alan Wake, which in 2005 was the first PC game that was demoed to run on a quad core processor, and its looks at the time were revolutionary. Then Remedy signed with MS, the Xbox port had to come out first, and MS made them delay Alan Wake till 2012 for the PC. By which time it looked decidedly average at best.

MS bought Lionhead Studios, and Fable II for the PC was cancelled and became an Xbox exclusive.

Mechwarrior games weren't really suited for a console controller, so MS shutdown FASA studios, ending the popular and successful Mechwarrior series.

Flight sims and RTS games aren't popular on consoles so MS also shutdown ACES and Ensemble Studios. Microsoft beats the competition in combat flight sims, and then just stops making them. They basically killed an entire genre, because the Xbox can't play it.

They bought all these PC gaming studios, and then converted them to Xbox only studios, or just shut them down.

Then there were games that used Microsoft Gaming Zone. MS shut that down. So unless the publisher is still around to switch it to another online system you're out of luck, since MS shut it down. Don't ever rely on MS for PC games, or online play.

And those are just the big names that I liked. Who knows how many lesser games never made it to the PC or were delayed thanks to MS. MS gets to see the PC games in development before we do. The best they try to make Xbox exclusives.
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot for reminding me about what happened to all those studios. That just ruined my day. I'm still pissed that Ensemble got shuttered. I would have loved to have seen a proper, new AoE4 instead of that online piece of crap that we got instead. Heck, my friend and I still fire up AoE 2 from time to time and play multiplayer.
 
Regardless of the games, it'll suck out the battery if it uses a decent GPU. Hence surface pro will use integrated graphics. Arm is actually better GPU equipped than pro
 
BladeVenom said:
Then there was Alan Wake, which in 2005 was the first PC game that was demoed to run on a quad core processor, and its looks at the time were revolutionary. Then Remedy signed with MS, the Xbox port had to come out first, and MS made them delay Alan Wake till 2012 for the PC. By which time it looked decidedly average at best.

MS bought Lionhead Studios, and Fable II for the PC was cancelled and became an Xbox exclusive.

Mechwarrior games weren't really suited for a console controller, so MS shutdown FASA studios, ending the popular and successful Mechwarrior series.

Flight sims and RTS games aren't popular on consoles so MS also shutdown ACES and Ensemble Studios. Microsoft beats the competition in combat flight sims, and then just stops making them. They basically killed an entire genre, because the Xbox can't play it.

They bought all these PC gaming studios, and then converted them to Xbox only studios, or just shut them down.

Then there were games that used Microsoft Gaming Zone. MS shut that down. So unless the publisher is still around to switch it to another online system you're out of luck, since MS shut it down. Don't ever rely on MS for PC games, or online play.

And those are just the big names that I liked. Who knows how many lesser games never made it to the PC or were delayed thanks to MS. MS gets to see the PC games in development before we do. The best they try to make Xbox exclusives.
Click to expand...
thanks, ive heard about this before, but couldnt remember any details when i posted.

Yea that really sucks. This is why im really hoping steam for linux takes off. Any chance of games that run in linux could also be built to run on android/ARM? This would be awesome.

And in regards to to battery life on the surface pro - i dont see how it could be much worse than a macbook air/ultrabook. The battery life is OK with me on those, and will probably get much better with haswell and broadwell.
 
BladeVenom said:
Then there was Alan Wake, which in 2005 was the first PC game that was demoed to run on a quad core processor, and its looks at the time were revolutionary. Then Remedy signed with MS, the Xbox port had to come out first, and MS made them delay Alan Wake till 2012 for the PC. By which time it looked decidedly average at best.

MS bought Lionhead Studios, and Fable II for the PC was cancelled and became an Xbox exclusive.

Mechwarrior games weren't really suited for a console controller, so MS shutdown FASA studios, ending the popular and successful Mechwarrior series.

Flight sims and RTS games aren't popular on consoles so MS also shutdown ACES and Ensemble Studios. Microsoft beats the competition in combat flight sims, and then just stops making them. They basically killed an entire genre, because the Xbox can't play it.

They bought all these PC gaming studios, and then converted them to Xbox only studios, or just shut them down.

Then there were games that used Microsoft Gaming Zone. MS shut that down. So unless the publisher is still around to switch it to another online system you're out of luck, since MS shut it down. Don't ever rely on MS for PC games, or online play.

And those are just the big names that I liked. Who knows how many lesser games never made it to the PC or were delayed thanks to MS. MS gets to see the PC games in development before we do. The best they try to make Xbox exclusives.
Click to expand...

I have no doubts whatsoever that Microsoft is the downfall of Gaming and is horribly bad for the gaming community as a whole. I've felt this way ever since Halo was changed from an open world action multiplayer game to a fake open world FPS game exclusive to a console with zero internet connectivity at the time for MP. I only hope Sony has something really special planned for their next console or we're in trouble. On the PC side I hope valve can keep it going and I look to them to guide us into the future of PC gaming. Whatever it may bring.
 
it's a double edged sword... Halo is microsoft's killer app. They bought bungie, and now halo is what it is today. It's a HUGELY successful franchise that kids will buy anything with a spartan on it.

Thus, bungie profited, microsoft profited, and HALO is one of the most respected games to date. (I personally don't care for it)

but yes, they need to cater to other gaming divisions besides the one that will sell games.

I'm just so surprised that Konami can pull off graphics like the one in Metal Gear Ground Zeroes... wtf? on 7 year old hardware?
 
Nvidiaguy07 said:
thanks, ive heard about this before, but couldnt remember any details when i posted.

Yea that really sucks. This is why im really hoping steam for linux takes off. Any chance of games that run in linux could also be built to run on android/ARM? This would be awesome.

And in regards to to battery life on the surface pro - i dont see how it could be much worse than a macbook air/ultrabook. The battery life is OK with me on those, and will probably get much better with haswell and broadwell.
Click to expand...

Just because you have a different distributions platform for games doesn't mean much when the developers are constantly either being shut down, or absorbed into larger houses like EA or Ubisoft. I totally agree that MS hasn't been the nicest towards gaming, but neither has EA or Ubisoft. The biggest issue I see for PC gaming is the gamers themselves. The exceptions for games to look amazingly awesome, and deliver content that is original and compelling has destroyed a lot of developers. It's a very sad reality that AAA titles these days need a multimillion dollar budget or they fail
 
Skel said:
Just because you have a different distributions platform for games doesn't mean much when the developers are constantly either being shut down, or absorbed into larger houses like EA or Ubisoft. I totally agree that MS hasn't been the nicest towards gaming, but neither has EA or Ubisoft. The biggest issue I see for PC gaming is the gamers themselves. The exceptions for games to look amazingly awesome, and deliver content that is original and compelling has destroyed a lot of developers. It's a very sad reality that AAA titles these days need a multimillion dollar budget or they fail
Click to expand...

So in other words, the expectation to make good games...
 
Red Storm said:
So in other words, the expectation to make good games...
Click to expand...

yeah.. that was badly worded....

My point is, gamers seem to have (and not every single gamer, last thing I want to do is open the flood gates for people to jump up and go "not me!!!") have an exception that games look a certain and play a certain way. That's one of the driving reasons why some of the old genres are starting to degrade into 'action' games. They just don't sell compared to a new 'Black Ops'. When a dev comes along and creates something less then a AAA title it's either shafted in the "bad game" category, or worse the "Casual games". Casual games are the like the antichrist of PC gaming if you listen to a lot of people on these forums.
 
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