The Microsoft Surface Tablet thread.

[pelov]

Granted, if you are writing a game and can sell it through Steam, you'll probably do ok, but Steam as a distribution platform still pales in comparison to the potential reach of the Windows Store.

Minus the restrictions in the Windows store...

5. Windows Store apps are appropriate for a global audience
This section describes types of content that are not permitted in the apps made available in the Windows Store.
Content means the images, sounds, and text contained in the app, the tiles, notifications, error messages or ads exposed through your app, and anything that’s delivered from a server or that the app connects to. Because Windows and the apps in the Windows Store are used around the world, these requirements will be interpreted and applied in the context of regional and cultural norms.
5.1 Your app must not contain adult content, and metadata must be appropriate for everyone
Apps with a rating over PEGI 16, ESRB MATURE, or that contain content that would warrant such a rating, are not allowed. Metadata and other content you submit to accompany your app may contain only content that would merit a rating of PEGI 12, ESRB EVERYONE, or Windows Store 12+, or lower.
We understand that in some cases, apps provide a gateway to retail content, user generated content, or web based content. We classify those apps as either Storefront apps, whose primary function is to aggregate and sell third party media or apps, or Streaming apps, whose primary function is to aggregate and stream web-based images, music, video or other media content. In some cases, it may be acceptable for a Storefront or Streaming app to include some content that might otherwise be prohibited in a single purpose app.
5.2 Your app must not contain content that advocates discrimination, hatred, or violence based on membership in a particular racial, ethnic, national, linguistic, religious, or other social group, or based on a person’s gender, age, or sexual orientation
5.3 Your app must not contain content or functionality that encourages, facilitates or glamorizes illegal activity
5.4 Your app must not contain or display content that a reasonable person would consider to be obscene
5.5 Your app must not contain content that is defamatory, libelous or slanderous, or threatening
5.6 Your app must not contain content that encourages, facilitates or glamorizes excessive or irresponsible use of alcohol or tobacco products, drugs or weapons
5.7 Your app must not contain content that encourages, facilitates or glamorizes extreme or gratuitous violence, human rights violations, or the creation or use of weapons against a person or animal in the real world
5.8 Your app must not contain excessive or gratuitous profanity

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh694083.aspx

Have fun with Angry Birds...

 

[dagamer34]

Minus the restrictions in the Windows store...



http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh694083.aspx

Have fun with Angry Birds...

You do realize that most of those restrictions explicitly exist for consoles and implicitly exist for PC games (games that get AO ratings are not sold in WalMart, Gamestop, Best Buy, Target, etc... making them not financially viable if it's a large scale production). Do I need to remind you about the Hot Coffee mod for Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas that got so huge, they called Congressional hearings about it?

Again, you are allowed to sell that kind of stuff on your own website; that's the freedom of the PC platform. But for any mainstream centralized distribution system, it's already not allowed.

 

[pelov]

I'm simply stating that the restrictions MS imposes aren't going to go down well for gaming, unless you plan on playing the same types of games in Android and iOS. Win8 and Metro sure as hell isn't a gaming platform.

 

[Dominato3r]

AFAIK, the Windows Store will not host the Steam client, or any other Win32 application. The will simply be given a page listing like all other apps, but the download button will send you to the developers download portal.

As far as average Joe applications, it's pretty easy to find and install free alternatives in a Windows environment (outside of winRT Metro). Remember, these people have been doing that for years. What's to stop someone from just downloading an .exe for free after a 5 second Google search instead of paying for it via the Metro store? Android and iOS make you jump through hoops. Win8 x86?

I'm not too sure about this, but WinRT apps are not just simple .exe's like old Win32 apps, there's some other stuff going on. There will probably be various piracy protection methods.

Android does not make you jump through any hoops, there is an option int he setting that lets you download outside the store.

 

[dagamer34]

I'm simply stating that the restrictions MS imposes aren't going to go down well for gaming, unless you plan on playing the same types of games in Android and iOS. Win8 and Metro sure as hell isn't a gaming platform.

I am stating that those restrictions already exist on the Xbox 360 and Playstation 3, and you still get games like Call of Duty: Black Ops II, Halo: Reach, Grand Theft Auto 4, and Max Payne 3. What makes you think the platform is just going to provide the same kind of games as iOS and Android?

And I guarantee you that Steam has the same restrictions on what they sell. You don't see porn games popular in Japan for sale on Steam in the US for good reason.

Here's the Steam Greenlight rules link: http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/about/?appid=765&section=faq#developers

Specifically, look at this question:

Are there any restrictions on what can be posted?
Your game must not contain offensive material or violate copyright or intellectual property rights.

And that's actually overly broad as it doesn't cite any specific examples as to what "offensive material" is (and it's definitely culture specific, girls not wearing hijabs in the Middle East would be offensive).

 

[pelov]

I'm not too sure about this, but WinRT apps are not just simple .exe's like old Win32 apps, there's some other stuff going on. There will probably be various piracy protection methods.

Android does not make you jump through any hoops, there is an option int he setting that lets you download outside the store.

Oh yea, Android's methods aren't exactly difficult, but we're talking about people who have been downloading and installing applications via this method for decades on Windows. What's to stop them doing that with Win8? If I had an x86 tablet, I'd look search for what I want via the Windows Metro store then go off to see if I can find it for free. I doubt that I'm alone here, either. Your average Windows user knows very well how that works.

In fact, if a developer offered it on their own website they could beat the MS price because they're not tacking on that 30% Microsoft tax.

 

[Dominato3r]

Oh yea, Android's methods aren't exactly difficult, but we're talking about people who have been downloading and installing applications via this method for decades on Windows. What's to stop them doing that with Win8? If I had an x86 tablet, I'd look search for what I want via the Windows Metro store then go off to see if I can find it for free. I doubt that I'm alone here, either. Your average Windows user knows very well how that works.

Yeah... I'm not sure how the new WinRT applications combat piracy.]

Regarding your edit, only desktop applications are safe from the cut, which is 20% not 30% on Windows 8 IIRC.

 

[dagamer34]

Oh yea, Android's methods aren't exactly difficult, but we're talking about people who have been downloading and installing applications via this method for decades on Windows. What's to stop them doing that with Win8? If I had an x86 tablet, I'd look search for what I want via the Windows Metro store then go off to see if I can find it for free. I doubt that I'm alone here, either. Your average Windows user knows very well how that works.

Pirating apps that will probably be on average less than $5 makes me feel sad...

 

[pelov]

Pirating apps that will probably be on average less than $5 makes me feel sad...

But now what is "pirating" is just the same exact way applications were searched for, installed and used before Windows Metro and its accompanying store.

You can call it pirating, but this pirating is what kept Microsoft going for decades. Now it's suddenly a bad thing?

This is what I mean by the winRT tablet making the most sense to me. The Win8 and Metro environment really lacks on every other device and with x86, but with ARM at least it makes sense -- notwithstanding the high price tag. <~~ from Microsoft's perspective.

 

[cmdrdredd]

I'm simply stating that the restrictions MS imposes aren't going to go down well for gaming, unless you plan on playing the same types of games in Android and iOS. Win8 and Metro sure as hell isn't a gaming platform.

Exactly...Grand theft auto and sleeping dogs for example.

1) Drug use
2) heavy use of weapons (somewhat glamorized)
3) implies illegal activities or encourages it through gameplay

That's 3 ticks off microsoft's list.

You don't see porn games popular in Japan for sale on Steam in the US for good reason.

Cause Steam doesn't allow games that would get 1.0 score on metacritic? lol

Focusing on x86 and ignoring ARM misses the point (and that's also not how developers think since almost no one writes raw x86 code anymore). It's Win32 (the old way) where you can sell an app on your website vs. WinRT (the new way) where Microsoft manages all of the payment stuff and DRM for you and you just have to write the app.

It is perilous to ignore the Windows Store. Now, no one is forcing to make an app that works on Windows RT, but much like the Mac App Store, people have been trained not to buy apps from anywhere else. And fighting the benefits of a centralized store is a loosing battle in the end.

Granted, if you are writing a game and can sell it through Steam, you'll probably do ok, but Steam as a distribution platform still pales in comparison to the potential reach of the Windows Store.

Except that steam is more established and well known. I see lots of cheap $1/$2.99 games on the windows store and all your various utilities and stuff to sync your contacts through google etc. While Steam gets all the major games and better indie games.

 

[Skel]

But now what is "pirating" is just the same exact way applications were searched for, installed and used before Windows Metro and its accompanying store.

You can call it pirating, but this pirating is what kept Microsoft going for decades. Now it's suddenly a bad thing?

This is what I mean by the winRT tablet making the most sense to me. The Win8 and Metro environment really lacks on every other device and with x86, but with ARM at least it makes sense -- notwithstanding the high price tag. <~~ from Microsoft's perspective.

Please explain further..

 

[finbarqs]

what he means to say is that in order for him to keep on supporting microsoft, Software piracy is a must!

 

[ITHURTSWHENIP]

I'm simply stating that the restrictions MS imposes aren't going to go down well for gaming, unless you plan on playing the same types of games in Android and iOS. Win8 and Metro sure as hell isn't a gaming platform.

Im not sure who is responsible for these decisions but they have gone crazy the past few years. They have an insane terms of service contract for Skydrive aswell. I can just imagine the PR disaster when thousands of accounts get banned for storing vacation pictures

 

[BladeVenom]

I am stating that those restrictions already exist on the Xbox 360 and Playstation 3, and you still get games like Call of Duty: Black Ops II, Halo: Reach, Grand Theft Auto 4, and Max Payne 3.

Microsoft favors the Xbox over Windows gamers. MS will force developers to cancel or delay a PC version of a game so they can have an Xbox exclusive.

With that kind of backstabbing and disservice to Windows gamers, do you really think they will make an exception?

If you're a PC gamer, MS is your worst enemy.

 

[pelov]

Please explain further..

When you read my quote without reading his, it looks sort of ridiculous doesn't it?

Let's put it a simpler way so you can understand this:

When downloading an application in Win7, are you going to buy one or download the one that's free?

Now why is the above considered normal desktop use in Win7, but according to him "piracy" in Win8/Metro?

 

[darkewaffle]

Any organization who sells games or deals in games has that sort of boilerplate somewhere, it's just another layer to covering your ass in case some complainy pants mom raises a fuss wanting to know how her child got hold of some game or something.

And it's still Windows... if it's not on "the store", who cares? Download it directly if you can. Inevitably the store probably won't have everything but as time goes on third parties will fill in the holes.

 

[BladeVenom]

And it's still Windows... if it's not on "the store", who cares? Download it directly if you can. Inevitably the store probably won't have everything but as time goes on third parties will fill in the holes.

With Windows RT you can only installs apps through the official MS app store.

 

[pelov]

DP

 

[pelov]

With Windows RT you can only installs apps through the official MS app store.

I think he's ignoring a fundamental difference here

Android and iOS have roughly 1.5m apps between them both in their respective stores.

MS has ~4k apps in their Windows store. In an RT device, you're limited to that selection and that selection alone.

With an x86 device w/ Win8, you've got 4k Metro apps plus the plethora of applications that have been accumulated through decades of Windows development.

Microsoft wants to encourage usage of its store yet it pales in comparison to the free alternatives elsewhere (search the web) or the for-a-cost alternatives not inside the Windows store, both of which dwarf it by a huge magnitude.

In short, if Windows wants Win8 and its store to succeed, they have to make the Metro app store look better not just compared to the iOS and Android selections, but also the selection available within its own environment. It also requires that people relearn how to use and search and install their windows applications, instead pointing them through Metro. That's a massive amount of work and a hell of a gamble, especially given Metro's current state

 

[darkewaffle]

With Windows RT you can only installs apps through the official MS app store.

Huh, I missed that. Looks like you're right, still I have a hard time believing we won't see workarounds for that pretty quickly. That does put a lot of pressure on MS to make sure their app store is populated though / make sure Win RT has a lot of the important features integrated or available as first party apps.

 

[Red Storm]

I think he's ignoring a fundamental difference here

Android and iOS have roughly 1.5m apps between them both in their respective stores.

MS has ~4k apps in their Windows store. In an RT device, you're limited to that selection and that selection alone.

With an x86 device w/ Win8, you've got 4k Metro apps plus the plethora of applications that have been accumulated through decades of Windows development.

Microsoft wants to encourage usage of its store yet it pales in comparison to the free alternatives elsewhere (search the web) or the for-a-cost alternatives not inside the Windows store, both of which dwarf it by a huge magnitude.

Speaking of which, I look forward to seeing how non-touch optimized software (as in, virtually every application for Windows) will perform on touch screen only devices. It's not enough if a tablet can run just about every application, it needs to be able to do it well or there's no point.

 

[pelov]

Speaking of which, I look forward to seeing how non-touch optimized software (as in, virtually every application for Windows) will perform on touch screen only devices. It's not enough if a tablet can run just about every application, it needs to be able to do it well or there's no point.

That's up to the developer, ultimately. They can choose how they optimize it and how much they put in their application. Needless to say, it's going to require more work than the Android versions. I think that's also another reason developers have been wary of developing anything for Win8 at all. Which device should they develop for? What input? Pen? Keyboard/mouse? How's the gesture support? What's going to be the most popular format/device?

These are all questions that have a pretty significant say in what Metro's app selection will look like. Considering they also have to contend with the applications not within the Metro store in the x86 environment, I'd imagine that makes quite a few developers more than wary of transitioning to Win8 at all. Why buy into Win8/Metro if the user can just find another free application with 5 seconds of searching via Google?

 

[naisanza]

I was too, but $100 just for the keyboard/cover lost my interest.

 

[TheStu]

I am very interested, but the expensive (and it seems perhaps necessary) keyboard cover, and the lack of any 3G or 4G option really limits it for me.

 

[dagamer34]

Microsoft favors the Xbox over Windows gamers. MS will force developers to cancel or delay a PC version of a game so they can have an Xbox exclusive.

With that kind of backstabbing and disservice to Windows gamers, do you really think they will make an exception?

If you're a PC gamer, MS is your worst enemy.

Please provide examples of this kind of behavior.