The Microsoft Surface Tablet thread.

[Puddle Jumper]

Way better value that the RT. I can't wait to pass the news along to the boss. Wanted to get a few to test for work. At this price I think I will be able to get one at work. Cheaper than the ultra books they have been buying.

I think this is an outstanding price 200 dollar more than the IPAD is a bargin IMO.

Yeah, the price is very cheap compared to most ultrabooks aimed at the corporate market so i don't see the cost being an issue at all. Heck, Dell was selling an Atom based Windows 7 tablet for this price last year.

 

[Skel]

Microsoft said that battery life will be half of the Windows RT....no good.

link?

 

[Red Storm]

link?

https://twitter.com/surface/status/274226595051483136

 

[tonyfreak215]

Haswell!!!!!

I wish....It's a "3rd Gen Intel Core i5 Processor with Intel HD Graphics 4000
4GB RAM—Dual Channel Memory"

Darn Was hoping for Haswell. Intel is really dropping the ball. They should have worked with MS and gotten Haswell into the Surface Pro!!!

 

[BladeVenom]

https://twitter.com/surface/status/274226595051483136

"#Surface pro will have approximately half the batter life of Surface RT. "
Mmmmm batter.

 

[dguy6789]

Half the surface battery life and $899 makes the surface pro doa

 

[ChronoReverse]

Half the surface battery life and $899 makes the surface pro doa

Yup, suddenly I have no interest.

 

[ultimatebob]

Things aren't looking good for the Surface RT...

http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2012/11/29/microsoft_halves_surface_orders/

Soo... how much longer until the excess inventory shows up on Woot for under $200?

 

[Dumac]

I don't even get the purpose of the pro? What x86 programs do you even want to run on the go on a tiny tablet screen?

 

[lkailburn]

I don't even get the purpose of the pro? What x86 programs do you even want to run on the go on a tiny tablet screen?

I view it as a FULL feature tablet that you can do EVERYTHING on but if you needed a bigger screen just dock it. I am looking to use it for work. I'm a consultant and travel with my laptop to all my clients

 

[Chiropteran]

What alternatives are there for a convertible tablet that is compatible with legacy x86 programs out there with stylist support and 1080p screen under 1k?

That is the problem though, why would you want legacy software on a tablet? If it's built around mouse and keyboard it's just not going to work well on a tablet that lacks them.

If you remove the legacy software, then it's just a really expensive nexus or kindle fire.

I could see it competing with them if the price was in the same ballpark, but it's just way too high as it is.

 

[quest55720]

That is the problem though, why would you want legacy software on a tablet? If it's built around mouse and keyboard it's just not going to work well on a tablet that lacks them.

If you remove the legacy software, then it's just a really expensive nexus or kindle fire.

I could see it competing with them if the price was in the same ballpark, but it's just way too high as it is.

Work is a very good reason. I don't want to carry around a bulky laptop if I don't have to. The type cover or touch cover will be solid enough for work. I move around several buildings at work or even sites time to time. I can also put W8Pro on it and join it to the domain so I can get my network files and use real outlook and office. I can also use a real web browser plenty of sites I got to still use flash,ask to install x86 software or are not mobile friendly. Also have access to all my work programs they don't make apps for them. It also has a handy USB port that supports millions of devices including ethernet adaptor to plug in when wireless is not there or to quick test a port. Thanks to it having display port I can hook it up to a couple of monitors when I am in the office. We have been demoing expensive ultra books. I would rather have the surface pro for less.

At home VLC player or universal media player and a real web browser are enough to win me over once haswell,silvermount and jaguar land next year. I will get close enough to the same form factor and battery life as consumption tablets but have access to millions of legacy programs. I see the toy tablets as being obsolete come this time next year except in the low end market.

 

[dagamer34]

That is the problem though, why would you want legacy software on a tablet? If it's built around mouse and keyboard it's just not going to work well on a tablet that lacks them.

If you remove the legacy software, then it's just a really expensive nexus or kindle fire.

I could see it competing with them if the price was in the same ballpark, but it's just way too high as it is.

It's a tablet that can hook up to a full 27" 2560x1440 monitor, real keyboard, and mouse. The real computer guts are in a 2 lbs chassis that can easily be carried around with you. Or if you want to connect it to your HDTV, just use a cable. Do you not see the value in that? It's freaking mind blowing.

 

[dagamer34]

"#Surface pro will have approximately half the batter life of Surface RT. "
Mmmmm batter.

Said in another way, the Surface Pro, with extremely similar specs to the MacBook Air (but better screen) will have the same battery life as a MacBook Air.

And yet the 11" MacBook Air sells reasonably well.

 

[Chiropteran]

It's a tablet that can hook up to a full 27" 2560x1440 monitor, real keyboard, and mouse. The real computer guts are in a 2 lbs chassis that can easily be carried around with you. Or if you want to connect it to your HDTV, just use a cable. Do you not see the value in that? It's freaking mind blowing.

Real computer guts... only catch is you have to pay twice as much as a real computer would cost you

Sure, I understand there is a certain niche of people who want to run windows programs on a tablet. There are also Netbooks that can do all the same things for a small fraction of the price.

My feeling is that for extreme portability and convince, I'd rather use a 7" android tablet or even just a phone. For legacy windows compatibility, I am going to want a real keyboard and mouse, so the portability advantage of the surface diminishes when you need to add those parts, and a netbook could serve the same need. I suppose there is some subset of people that want the advantages of both a tablet and a windows laptop without carrying two different devices, and the surface is probably wonderful for them, but I feel that subset is a very small niche.

edit: Also, nearly any android device can use a "real" Bluetooth keyboard and mouse, and most have hdmi output with the correct adapter, which doesn't really take more effort to carry than a cable. So that isn't exactly a completely unique capability.

 

[bigrash]

Compared to a $699 64GB ipad that's limited to an ARM cpu and mobile apps?

I didn't say the ipad wasn't pricey either.

 

[dagamer34]

Real computer guts... only catch is you have to pay twice as much as a real computer would cost you

Sure, I understand there is a certain niche of people who want to run windows programs on a tablet. There are also Netbooks that can do all the same things for a small fraction of the price.

My feeling is that for extreme portability and convince, I'd rather use a 7" android tablet or even just a phone. For legacy windows compatibility, I am going to want a real keyboard and mouse, so the portability advantage of the surface diminishes when you need to add those parts, and a netbook could serve the same need. I suppose there is some subset of people that want the advantages of both a tablet and a windows laptop without carrying two different devices, and the surface is probably wonderful for them, but I feel that subset is a very small niche.

edit: Also, nearly any android device can use a "real" Bluetooth keyboard and mouse, and most have hdmi output with the correct adapter, which doesn't really take more effort to carry than a cable. So that isn't exactly a completely unique capability.

Thing is that I could never use a netbook for app development work. I demand performance out of the computers I buy. So that means at least dual core i5, SSDs, and hi DPI IPS panels because if I'm going to spend money on something, I don't want it to be a piece of crap. I also take care of my stuff such that when I sell it, I get a really good return on it, so that the actual out of pocket cost is about as much as whatever a netbook would be owned for 2 years before it gets too slow, breaks down, and you have to go buy a new one.

 

[Chiropteran]

Thing is that I could never use a netbook for app development work. I demand performance out of the computers I buy. So that means at least dual core i5, SSDs, and hi DPI IPS panels because if I'm going to spend money on something, I don't want it to be a piece of crap. I also take care of my stuff such that when I sell it, I get a really good return on it, so that the actual out of pocket cost is about as much as whatever a netbook would be owned for 2 years before it gets too slow, breaks down, and you have to go buy a new one.

We are living in the age of the cloud. You can use your Nexus tablet or E-450 Netbook to remote desktop to a powerful development server with far more CPU power than Microsoft could ever cram into a Surface.

Also, obviously not a business example, but for my personal use I equate performance with powerful GPU capability. The surface doesn't have it. It might have a better CPU than my cheap netbook or tablet, but a fast CPU limited to Intel onboard graphics is still not going to offer the performance I'd want, and certainly not at $900. For that price range I could buy a real laptop with dedicated GPU that will vastly outperform the surface. Again, the size advantage of the surface is diminished when you need to carry around a mouse and power brick and everything else, might as well just carry a small laptop in a laptop bag.

I do get your point, I'm just saying there are cheap alternatives. I still think only a small minority will actually want to pay the premium to use a Surface. I also think the only problem with it is price. Reduce by $200 across the board and it becomes a very interesting device to me- still slightly higher than the Amazon & Google loss-leader tablets, but worth seriously considering.

Revise the lineup, make the touch cover standard-

$420 32GB RT w/ touchcover
$500 64GB RT w/ touchcover
$650 64GB Pro w/ touchcover
$750 128GB Pro w/ touchcover

Thing is, looking at those prices even though they are a lot more reasonable I *still* wouldn't immediately go out and buy one, just to show how out of place the existing prices are. Like, you can get a real ultrabook for $600. Surface needs to better than that.

 

[MrX8503]

64GB with a full fledged desktop OS? How much space is left over after its all said and done?

 

[lkailburn]

600 for a real ultrabook? Show me.
For my intended use its this or an ultrabook. I just priced out an x1 carbon and it was $1200

Mrx- I think I read OS is 16gb. But remember this has ports. Pop in a 64gb SD card for a few bucks if you need to carry around that much with you. Or like everyone else, cloud storage

 

[Chiropteran]

600 for a real ultrabook? Show me.
For my intended use its this or an ultrabook. I just priced out an x1 carbon and it was $1200

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ultrabook/shop-ultrabook.html

I don't deny that some are over twice that. If you look at the cheapest ultrabooks, they can be found for as little as $600.

Mrx- I think I read OS is 16gb.

The RT uses 16GB of space for OS, but if you are talking about the Surface Pro it's going to be much higher. It's just a regular Windows 8 install, so same as it would use on a desktop OS. My Windows folder is 16GB alone, plus there is a 4GB or so swapfile, and another 8GB hibernate file, and then whatever Office uses. Unless there are some special tweaks I wouldn't be surprised if the OS takes up 30GB or more when all is said and done.



Edit:

Looks like I am not the only one who thinks it is overpriced,
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2286491

 

[lkailburn]

I'm sure tons of people will think it's overpriced because they are comparing to the ipad, the ipad mini, or the 7" droid tablets. Personally i DON"T view it as a tablet but as a laptop in tablet form. It's a FULL PC not some dumbed down app player. I think the pro focuses to a niche market for now but opens the doors for others to push their tablets into something more useful. I'm an IT professional but don't own a tablet because i don't want just a toy to play games on or read my email. I have a two 3 desktops a laptop and a smartphone i can do that on.

I checked out some more brands of ultrabooks and i could not find an ivy i5 for under 899. So its atleast on par or better than an equivalent ultrabooks. To draw in more of the public i think 799 would have been the ultimate price point. Its MASSIVELY more powerful than the ipad for what would be just a little more.

 

[Deeko]

64GB with a full fledged desktop OS? How much space is left over after its all said and done?

I have a 128 GB Macbook Air partitioned into two halves for Bootcamp, giving me essentially 64 GB for Windows 8. It's...cozy, but it works fine. I've got full versions of Office and Visual Studio 2012 on there which aren't exactly light on the disk space requirements and I'm still able to work with it. In retrospect, yea, it would have been nice to have paid the extra for the 256 (giving me 128/128), a little more breathing room, but I get by.

 

[Chiropteran]

I checked out some more brands of ultrabooks and i could not find an ivy i5 for under 899. So its atleast on par or better than an equivalent ultrabooks.

Uh, no. You can't count the advantages and ignore the drawbacks.

Yes, it has a decent CPU. However it lacks some incredibly basic features such as a keyboard. Add a keyboard and a bluetooth mouse and the Surface is already over $1000.

Compared to a surface you could get a $600 acer ultrabook with a slightly slower CPU, but the advantage of actually coming with a keyboard + trackpad.

Or you could get an asus touchscreen ultrabook laptop such as
http://www.amazon.com/VivoBook-X202E...hscreen+laptop

It may not be an ultrabook by definition, but in actuality it can do everything the Surface can do, for about half the price.


It all comes down to the Surface having a very specific combination of features at a not-so generous price that makes it look very niche and unlikely to be successful, not unless they cut the price or release a new version.

Here is the Surface niche:

1- You want a tiny computer.
2- You need a lot of CPU so a regular netbook won't work, but you don't need good graphics.
3- You don't need a keyboard, or you are willing to spend an extra $100+ for one.
4- You don't need a real mouse, or you are willing to carry around a mouse in addition to the device, sacrificing portability.
5- You don't need great battery life of a tablet.
6- You are fine with paying high-end ultrabook prices and getting something that is measurably less than a real ultrabook.
7- You don't really need any significant storage space.

Are there any people who need something that fits all of those situations? Sure, a couple people might. I just don't think there will be as much demand as a product requires to be truly successful.

 

[lkailburn]

Uh, no. You can't count the advantages and ignore the drawbacks.

Yes, it has a decent CPU. However it lacks some incredibly basic features such as a keyboard. Add a keyboard and a bluetooth mouse and the Surface is already over $1000.

Compared to a surface you could get a $600 acer ultrabook with a slightly slower CPU, but the advantage of actually coming with a keyboard + trackpad.

Or you could get an asus touchscreen ultrabook laptop such as
http://www.amazon.com/VivoBook-X202E...hscreen+laptop

It may not be an ultrabook by definition, but in actuality it can do everything the Surface can do, for about half the price.


It all comes down to the Surface having a very specific combination of features at a not-so generous price that makes it look very niche and unlikely to be successful, not unless they cut the price or release a new version.

Here is the Surface niche:

1- You want a tiny computer.
2- You need a lot of CPU so a regular netbook won't work, but you don't need good graphics.
3- You don't need a keyboard, or you are willing to spend an extra $100+ for one.
4- You don't need a real mouse, or you are willing to carry around a mouse in addition to the device, sacrificing portability.
5- You don't need great battery life of a tablet.
6- You are fine with paying high-end ultrabook prices and getting something that is measurably less than a real ultrabook.
7- You don't really need any significant storage space.

Are there any people who need something that fits all of those situations? Sure, a couple people might. I just don't think there will be as much demand as a product requires to be truly successful.

I can agree with this. Its just, I answer yes to all of those questions so I AM the market for the Pro. It's priced perfectly adequate for it's EXACT intended market but as mentioned by both of us, not low enough to entice more of the general public. Most will just see it as a tablet, and compare it to the iPad; even though it's more powerful than the current iPad, and will be more powerful than the next iPad, end of story sadly. :-(