The long wait for Haswell. Intel's Bulldozer.

[Obsoleet]

P4M wasn't Core 1.

I misspoke. I was just going off of memory of chips from years ago. I meant the Pentium-M, which is what the Core1 was based on. That laptop is still working well today, I wouldn't call it slow.

I don't get this??? You're gonna keep using the 5870 with the A10... Why the hell do you even care about the iGPU? Doesn't that defeat the point you were trying to make about Haswell and its inferior iGPU compared to AMD's solution if you're just going to use your discrete card anyway?

Because APUs are the future, and I want the best backup integrated GPU I can get my hands on. If my 5870 dies, and I'm sure it will someday, I might be ok with the A10's integrated. I'm really hoping to not have to test that theory though, as I'm waiting for Kaveri.

While standard x86 CPU improvements can safely be declared dead with Haswell's release, there is a whole new generation (decade+??) worth of exciting changes to come down the pipe with APUs and blending the CPU and GPU once and for all. As an enthusiast, I see this as where the action is.

 

[notty22]

I don't get this??? You're gonna keep using the 5870 with the A10... Why the hell do you even care about the iGPU? Doesn't that defeat the point you were trying to make about Haswell and its inferior iGPU compared to AMD's solution if you're just going to use your discrete card anyway?

Some kind of response is posted above, yeah it makes no sense.

Rar, rar , zip boom bar. I mean to support AMD,even though I don't. I just mean well ! My conscious is clear ?

 

[Obsoleet]

Some kind of response is posted above, yeah it makes no sense.

Rar, rar , zip boom bar. I mean to support AMD,even though I don't. I just mean well ! My conscious is clear ?

Are you having troubles reading? What part doesn't 'make sense' to you?

 

[2is]

That's fine, and I recognize that.
But honestly, who cares?

I haven't upgraded my Q9450 because I haven't needed to. Though to be fair, I've had it OC'd to 3ghz since the day I bought it (launch day for the Q9450). It might be a tad slow without that.

If you haven't needed to upgrade a Q9450, the performance of Haswell should be a complete non-issue, but you just created a thread about it. I'm not really sure what you're complaining about. Doesn't make sense to me either.

 

[Obsoleet]

If you haven't needed to upgrade a Q9450, the performance of Haswell should be a complete non-issue, but you just created a thread about it. I'm not really sure what you're complaining about. Doesn't make sense to me either.

Because it was supposed to be the big APU/Trinity Killer. Both a big step forward in CPU power and trounce the GPU power of the AMD parts at the same time. It was neither. It didn't blow AMD off the map, as I (and many others) were kind of expecting.
This is and will remain the 'biggest' tock from Intel in a while.

It actually solidified my previous view before Haswell was here and it was all mystery and hype, that if my 9450 died I'd get an A10. I definitely will now, but of course, am excited for what Kaveri will bring.

 

[blackened23]

Because it was supposed to be the big APU/Trinity Killer. Both a big step forward in CPU power and trounce the GPU power of the AMD parts at the same time. It was neither. It didn't blow AMD off the map.

It actually solidified my previous view before Haswell was here and it was all mystery and hype, that if my 9450 died I'd get an A10. I definitely will now, but of course, am excited for what Kaveri will bring.

If you're unaware, the desktop Haswell parts do not have the best integrated graphics. Those are reserved for the BGA / mobile parts, which, oddly enough - all have better iGPU performance than the Trinity. Generally speaking, desktop users care little about integrated graphics. But if you do care about it, you'll want to get one of the BGA parts or perhaps the 4770S. Not the 4770K. The 4770k does not have the best iGPU that haswell has to offer, because the vast majority of consumers purchasing that chip won't be using iGPU.

So yes, intel currently has the fastest iGPU in existence, AMD does not. However, AMD is still fighting the good fight on price I suppose? Shrug. GT3E is not cheap, but it will have better GPU performance than any of AMDs offerings. Of course, you can read about all of this on anand's front page if you're ever inclined to do so.

 

[2is]

Because it was supposed to be the big APU/Trinity Killer. Both a big step forward in CPU power and trounce the GPU power of the AMD parts at the same time. It was neither. It didn't blow AMD off the map, as I (and many others) were kind of expecting.
This is and will remain the 'biggest' tock from Intel in a while.

It actually solidified my previous view before Haswell was here and it was all mystery and hype, that if my 9450 died I'd get an A10. I definitely will now, but of course, am excited for what Kaveri will bring.

I don't recall it ever being the APU killer in terms of the GPU. In fact, I recall speculation being it would be a significant step forward from HD4000 but still a bit behind AMD's better APU's. At least on the desktop sku's.

 

[Ajay]

What is it with these over-the-top hyperbole laden blogposts that needlessly get posted as their own threads instead of simply being a single post added to any one of the existing threads in the forum?

I think peeps are just upset that Haswell just won't insta-overclock 50% like older CPUs and going a bit crazy. Like Bulldozer, there was too much hype behind Haswell compared to what we got.

 

[Hypertag]

I misspoke. I was just going off of memory of chips from years ago. I meant the Pentium-M, which is what the Core1 was based on. That laptop is still working well today, I wouldn't call it slow.



Because APUs are the future, and I want the best backup integrated GPU I can get my hands on. If my 5870 dies, and I'm sure it will someday, I might be ok with the A10's integrated. I'm really hoping to not have to test that theory though, as I'm waiting for Kaveri.

While standard x86 CPU improvements can safely be declared dead with Haswell's release, there is a whole new generation (decade+??) worth of exciting changes to come down the pipe with APUs and blending the CPU and GPU once and for all. As an enthusiast, I see this as where the action is.

I'll bite. You have stated that Integrated GPUs are the future, and thus, these are the only GPUs you will let yourself use. Why not sell the 5870 since you don't need the performance?

Seriously, how is it even possible for people to twist their thinking into this many pretzels? This type of thinking is full of so many illogical conclusions that it is just on a different level.

Yeah, enthusiasts are just rushing to buy A-10ks there.

Because it was supposed to be the big APU/Trinity Killer. Both a big step forward in CPU power and trounce the GPU power of the AMD parts at the same time. It was neither.

It is the Trinity killer. The GT3e version crushes it. The GT3 version will be the version trinity/richland actually faces. Intel put the GT2 in the desktop parts because no one cares. You already know this. As fun as it is for AMD fanboys to pretend that the GT2 series will be the actual competition for richland, it won't.

 

[frozentundra123456]

@ 2is

Yea, the whole post makes no sense. Why would one complain about the lack of cpu performance improvements in Haswell and then say they are happy with a cpu they already own that has far less performance and if they have to replace it, the replacement will be another cpu with much less performance?

It also seems to be kind of like "cutting off your nose to spite your face" to buy an inferior product just because the product with higher performance did not improve as much as you or someone else expected. As far as igpu, performance is a non-issue to me on the desktop. Any igp on the market now is good enough for everyday use, and if you need more power, just add a discrete card. There may be a small segment of users that wants more igpu power than intel grpahics but not enough to get a discrete card, but honestly it seems like a very small niche.

Edit: sales figures confirm this btw. If AMDs igpu performance was a compelling sales point, one would think they would own a bigger percentage of the market.

 

[Obsoleet]

So yes, intel currently has the fastest iGPU in existence, AMD does not. However, AMD is still fighting the good fight on price I suppose? Shrug. GT3E is not cheap, but it will have better GPU performance than any of AMDs offerings.

Exactly. But even the GT3e is not that much faster.. and obviously much more expensive, and is a BGA part! That's too much. Or I'd buy it. I'm more excited about Kaveri, it'll probably be socketed... and faster..

I think peeps are just upset that Haswell just won't insta-overclock 50% like older CPUs and going a bit crazy. Like Bulldozer, there was too much hype behind Haswell compared to what we got.

Pretty much. I was actually pro Haswell. People are pretending that because I'm not extolling its virtues that I'm some sort of Communist..

Frankly, if you search this forum you'll find my posts saying I'm waiting for Haswell. Thanks.

I'll bite. You have stated that Integrated GPUs are the future, and thus, these are the only GPUs you will let yourself use. Why not sell the 5870 since you don't need the performance?

It is the Trinity killer. The GT3e version crushes it. The GT3 version will be the version trinity/richland actually faces. Intel put the GT2 in the desktop parts because no one cares. You already know this. As fun as it is for AMD fanboys to pretend that the GT2 series will be the actual competition for richland, it won't.

It doesn't crush it. http://www.anandtech.com/show/6993/intel-iris-pro-5200-graphics-review-core-i74950hq-tested/10 It's within 4FPS at 1680x1050.

I'm not an AMD fanboy. Geez, sorry I got YOUR panties in a bunch around here. I just wanted to post my thoughts on Haswell after years of waiting. I think it's the Intel fanboys who are bugging out here.
I'm not alone in my thoughts. This was supposed to be my point to replace my Q9450. It's not. Haswell sucks. I'd still buy an existing Trinity A10 over it today to replace my Q9450, what is so hard to understand about that fact?

Kaveri is just what I'm looking for because the GT3 Haswell chip is just not that good. 4FPS over the A10 @ 1680x1050 in a game as popular as Battlefield3 is not a blowout. Not what I was expecting.

Not enough to make me buy now, instead of Kaveri as I expected. This was supposed to be the "forget about AMD APUs" chip, and don't say it wasn't now just because it's a flop.

 

[Ancalagon44]

I cannot believe what I'm reading.

Haswell improves upon IB in EVERY SINGLE WAY except overclocking. It is faster clock for clock, and it has a better integrated GPU. For the same amount of money.

Compare that to Bulldozer - it was a step back in clock for clock performance, and often a step back in overall performance, all while using much more power.

 

[Obsoleet]

I cannot believe what I'm reading.

Haswell improves upon IB in EVERY SINGLE WAY except overclocking. It is faster clock for clock, and it has a better integrated GPU. For the same amount of money.

Compare that to Bulldozer - it was a step back in clock for clock performance, and often a step back in overall performance, all while using much more power.

It didn't live up to its expectations. Just like Bulldozer.
I don't manage expectations for Intel. That's for their marketing team to do. It was a flop by the standards set on the street for this chip.
It was the big one for CPU power increase and GPU power increase, it was neither- plain and simple.

 

[JimmiG]

Bulldozer:
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph4955/41709.png
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph4955/41715.png

Not Bulldozer:
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph7003/55332.png
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph7003/55330.png

 

[Ancalagon44]

It didn't live up to its expectations. Just like Bulldozer.
I don't manage expectations for Intel. That's for their marketing team to do. It was a flop by the standards set on the street for this chip.
It was the big one for CPU power increase and GPU power increase, it was neither- plain and simple.

And what expectations did you have that were not met?

I expected it to be 5-15% faster clock for clock - it was.

Tell me how Intel hyped it up to 250% faster clock for clock? Where?

What did you expect it to be?

The only thing that Intel has hyped up is its low mobile idle power draw - which we dont have benchmarks for yet (I dont think). And which is irrelevant for desktop.

 

[WhoBeDaPlaya]

Haswell improves upon IB in EVERY SINGLE WAY except overclocking. It is faster clock for clock, and it has a better integrated GPU. For the same amount of money.

Kinda. Overall, you'll end up paying ~30% more than for a comparable IVB CPU+MB, for a newer platform and ~10% average performance gain. Whether that 30% (which works out to around $110 or so at MicroCenter) is worth it or not is up to the individual.

 

[Obsoleet]

And what expectations did you have that were not met?

1. A major leap in processing power, like the C2D was on launch. <- That's where the level of hype was. Please stop trying to deny this now..
2. A major leap in iGPU power, enough to smash the A10. A leap at minimum, like the HD4000 was (unless you accept the pricey, BGA-only HD5200).

Neither came to be.

 

[Ancalagon44]

1. A major leap in processing power, like the C2D was on launch. <- That's where the level of hype was. Please stop trying to deny this now..

That's not what I got from the hype.

Show me the articles where it was hyped up to be such.

And honestly, what level of performance increase were you expecting?

 

[ShintaiDK]

1. A major leap in processing power, like the C2D was on launch. <- That's where the level of hype was. Please stop trying to deny this now..
2. A major leap in iGPU power, like the HD4000 was (I guess a highly priced, BGA part was a decent leap over the HD4000, but didn't smash the A10).

Neither came to be.

1. I think you misunderstood when people talked about AVX/AVX2. For example a 3770 gives around 100Gflops in linpack. A 4770 gives around 170gflops. Nobody said legacy code would have a huge jump. And nobody created a hype about it.

2. The GT3e is the fastest IGP solution. Way ahead of the A10.

 

[Tsavo]

What is it with these over-the-top hyperbole laden blogposts that needlessly get posted as their own threads instead of simply being a single post added to any one of the existing threads in the forum?

I think Intel must have peed in his cornflakes and ate all of his pop tarts.

 

[beginner99]

I replaced many machines since the mid-80s because they were too slow, I'm not having that problem anymore. Haswell doesn't offer me anything the A10 doesn't to be honest.

So first you complain haswell is a failure because it is too slow and then you say you don't need that performance anyway? And then you suggest to spend several $100 to do a side-grade at best?

Yeah makes a ton of sense really! OMG

AMD-Fanboys are like religious people. Blind and misguided. I mean first the complain about crappy iGPU performance and once a intel mobile part with 47w TDP manages to beat a 100W AMD desktop part in both CPU (abput 2x) and GPU (a bit faster) said processor is a fail? Yeah, i really do see the logic.

 

[Obsoleet]

So first you complain haswell is a failure because it is too slow and then you say you don't need that performance anyway? And then you suggest to spend several $100 to do a side-grade at best?

Yeah makes a ton of sense really! OMG

AMD-Fanboys are like religious people. Blind and misguided. I mean first the complain about crappy iGPU performance and once a intel mobile part with 47w TDP manages to beat a 100W AMD desktop part in both CPU (abput 2x) and GPU (a bit faster) said processor is a fail? Yeah, i really do see the logic.

It's not too slow, it's too slow compared to IB.. which was already overpowered. I don't need more CPU power, I want a fast APU.
1. They didn't deliver the C2D-level CPU increase. 2. They didn't kill the A10.

This is Intel's Bulldozer.

 

[Ancalagon44]

It's not too slow, it's too slow compared to IB.. which was already overpowered. I don't need more CPU power, I want a fast APU.
1. They didn't deliver the C2D-level CPU increase. 2. They didn't kill the A10.

This is Intel's Bulldozer.

So you complain that Haswell didnt live up to your own hype, but that it wouldnt matter if it did anyway because IB was fast enough and you want a faster GPU in any case?

Have you taken your crazy pills today?

 

[Obsoleet]

So you complain that Haswell didnt live up to your own hype, but that it wouldnt matter if it did anyway because IB was fast enough and you want a faster GPU in any case?

Have you taken your crazy pills today?

No need to take that tone. Seriously.

I didn't really care about the CPU increase, but I was expecting a C2D level increase. That was pretty much common knowledge this was the 'big one'. It just happened to flop. And this iGPU was supposed to be the AMD-APU killer. It wasn't.

 

[Torn Mind]

I don't know who in there right minds would expect a Netburst to Core architecture with Haswell(or any other modern microarchitecture, for that matter) increase or if even the hype itself went that far. I did not pay much attention, but it seemed like it was the IGP that was more interesting than the IPC gains.