The lie behind the war

[emperus]

Was a good read as to what caused this new Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

Katie Zavadski, fresh from a Dishternship, nails down a critical fact in the latest Israel-Hamas death-match. As the Dish has noted before, the Israeli government knew from the get-go that the murderers of three Israeli teens – the incident that set off this bloody chain of events – were not doing official Hamas’ bidding even in the West Bank, let alone Gaza:

So the entire swoop on the West Bank against Hamas, which soon escalated into all-out war, was based on a a false premise, uttered by Bibi Netanyahu thus: “Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay.” It’s worth recalling in that context that Hamas had recently been very quiet on the rockets front:

Fewer rockets were fired from Gaza in 2013 than in any year since 2001, and nearly all those that were fired between the November 2012 ceasefire and the current crisis were launched by groups other than Hamas; the Israeli security establishment testified to the aggressive anti-rocket efforts made by the new police force Hamas established specifically for that purpose.
​

Netanyahu saw an opportunity to hammer Hamas and punish the PA for cooperating with them. He took it. It disempowers both and makes an even more radical successor more likely. But if you assume that Netanyahu has no intention of ever coming to a peace agreement, a more radical Palestinian population helps justify that. Meanwhile, the core project of a permanent Greater Israel is advanced.
After watching this situation for too many years now, I have developed one key measurement: follow the settlements. Everything that happens is designed for their benefit. And that goes for the current ghastly carnage. It’s staggering what the Israeli government will sacrifice to advance the settlements.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2014/07/27/the-lie-behind-the-war/

 

[TheSiege]

Netanyahu is a pain in the ass, loose canon. Just keep us out of it and let him destroy himself and his people

 

[TechBoyJK]

Just because Hamas didn't 'authorize' the kidnappings doesn't mean they shouldn't be eradicated. Just because a child rapist didn't run a red light doesn't mean they shouldn't be in jail.

 

[Harabec]

For the world, this is a game, something that happens thousands of kilometers away in some distant land.
For us, it is a daily routine of rocket and mortar attacks that never stopped, and tunnels dug under our towns to kidnap and murder our people.
The sheltered world can, from the comfort of its modern, mostly worry-free life, play around with putting tags on rockets - this came from that organization, the other one came from that one - for our citizens it simply does not matter.

And lets face it, among the hundreds of thousands of christian\muslim arabs dying while the Middle East around us and nearby northern Africa erupts in flames and decays into a fundie religious dream, no one really gives a damn unless it has something to do with Israel.

There's good and there's bad here and we're not saints, but we're here, most of us wish to live in peace and perhaps one day people will simply stop trying to kill us all the time.
When that happens, we most likely WILL make sacrifices for peace. But it needs to happen first.

Yeah, Netanyahu most likely had to sell the idea to the world. Welcome to politics. You will be hard pressed to find anyone here who regrets the likely outcome of this operation - the destruction of munitions meant to be used on us and tunnels dug for murder, not smuggling basic supplies.

In the end there's only so much apologizing you can do for simply existing. One day you gotta tell "World Opinion" to shove it and do what you gotta do for your citizens.

 

[emperus]

Just because Hamas didn't 'authorize' the kidnappings doesn't mean they shouldn't be eradicated. Just because a child rapist didn't run a red light doesn't mean they shouldn't be in jail.

If that is what you want to believe, then that should be the Narrative Israel tell the world. But that isn't the narrative Israel is pushing, is it?

 

[emperus]

For the world, this is a game, something that happens thousands of kilometers away in some distant land.
For us, it is a daily routine of rocket and mortar attacks that never stopped, and tunnels dug under our towns to kidnap and murder our people.
The sheltered world can, from the comfort of its modern, mostly worry-free life, play around with putting tags on rockets - this came from that organization, the other one came from that one - for our citizens it simply does not matter.

And lets face it, among the hundreds of thousands of christian\muslim arabs dying while the Middle East around us and nearby northern Africa erupts in flames and decays into a fundie religious dream, no one really gives a damn unless it has something to do with Israel.

There's good and there's bad here and we're not saints, but we're here, most of us wish to live in peace and perhaps one day people will simply stop trying to kill us all the time.
When that happens, we most likely WILL make sacrifices for peace. But it needs to happen first.

Yeah, Netanyahu most likely had to sell the idea to the world. Welcome to politics. You will be hard pressed to find anyone here who regrets the likely outcome of this operation - the destruction of munitions meant to be used on us and tunnels dug for murder, not smuggling basic supplies.

In the end there's only so much apologizing you can do for simply existing. One day you gotta tell "World Opinion" to shove it and do what you gotta do for your citizens.

So, you acknowledge Netanyahu and Israel used propaganda to sell this was to US citizens?

If their cause was just, why do you think they had to use "propaganda"?

 

[cabri]

Because the Palestinian PR machine is much more sophisticated.

Hamas refused to disavow the kidnappings. The Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank showed extensive support for the actions.
The Palestinians also did nothing on tracking down those responsible for the kidnappings.

So apparently, it is Israel's fault.
Israel went lookig for the perps and Hamas did not like the results.

 

[werepossum]

Wow. To quote:

Fewer rockets were fired from Gaza in 2013 than in any year since 2001, and nearly all those that were fired between the November 2012 ceasefire and the current crisis were launched by groups other than Hamas; the Israeli security establishment testified to the aggressive anti-rocket efforts made by the new police force Hamas established specifically for that purpose.

As the Palestinians' elected government, Hamas not only is not preventing others from using its tunnels to kidnap and murder Israeli children, not only not preventing others from firing rockets (which apparently just magically appear in Gaza) into Israel, but is actually touting the fact that it fired fewer rockets into Israel than before. Apparently, Hamas reserves the right to fire some rockets into Israel (a number to be determined solely by Hamas, of course) as well as allowing others to do so without any Israeli recourse and is outraged that the Jews won't go along. That either takes some serious brass or some blinding stupidity.

 

[fskimospy]

Wow. To quote:

As the Palestinians' elected government, Hamas not only is not preventing others from using its tunnels to kidnap and murder Israeli children, not only not preventing others from firing rockets (which apparently just magically appear in Gaza) into Israel, but is actually touting the fact that it fired fewer rockets into Israel than before. Apparently, Hamas reserves the right to fire some rockets into Israel (a number to be determined solely by Hamas, of course) as well as allowing others to do so without any Israeli recourse and is outraged that the Jews won't go along. That either takes some serious brass or some blinding stupidity.

Israel said Hamas was behind the kidnappings/murders; it appears that they were not. Therefore, Israel's campaign against Hamas using this as a pretext is bullshit.

Now that we know their stated reason for this military action is bullshit we have to look and see what their real motivation was.

 

[werepossum]

Israel said Hamas was behind the kidnappings/murders; it appears that they were not. Therefore, Israel's campaign against Hamas using this as a pretext is bullshit.

Now that we know their stated reason for this military action is bullshit we have to look and see what their real motivation was.

Why, we already know; it's the conspiracy. We already know that Israel knew the boys were already dead when they began to look for them, that their murderers were someone other than Hamas, and that Jews secretly love rocket bombardment as long as it's kept in moderation. Must be the conspiracy to create Greater Israel. Hamas are the real victims here.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Israel said Hamas was behind the kidnappings/murders; it appears that they were not. Therefore, Israel's campaign against Hamas using this as a pretext is bullshit.

Now that we know their stated reason for this military action is bullshit we have to look and see what their real motivation was.

If a gov can't control every single one of it's citizens, then the blame still rests on the gov.
Ya..something like that..

 

[emperus]

Wow. To quote:

As the Palestinians' elected government, Hamas not only is not preventing others from using its tunnels to kidnap and murder Israeli children, not only not preventing others from firing rockets (which apparently just magically appear in Gaza) into Israel, but is actually touting the fact that it fired fewer rockets into Israel than before. Apparently, Hamas reserves the right to fire some rockets into Israel (a number to be determined solely by Hamas, of course) as well as allowing others to do so without any Israeli recourse and is outraged that the Jews won't go along. That either takes some serious brass or some blinding stupidity.

I'm not sure you really understood that quote you replied to. You should try reading it again.

 

[fskimospy]

Why, we already know; it's the conspiracy. We already know that Israel knew the boys were already dead when they began to look for them, that their murderers were someone other than Hamas, and that Jews secretly love rocket bombardment as long as it's kept in moderation. Must be the conspiracy to create Greater Israel. Hamas are the real victims here.

How can a government conspire with itself? That doesn't make any sense.

I do find it amusing that when it comes to the American government you see lies and trickery everywhere, but when it comes to the Israeli government their justifications are just taken at face value, even when they are exposed to be bullshit.

We now know that the claim that Hamas was behind the kidnapping/murder was a lie. So since their stated justification was a lie, there presumably has to be another justification. Logic 101.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Katie Zavadski, fresh from a Dishternship, nails down a critical fact in the latest Israel-Hamas death-match. As the Dish has noted before, the Israeli government knew from the get-go that the murderers of three Israeli teens – the incident that set off this bloody chain of events – were not doing official Hamas’ bidding even in the West Bank, let alone Gaza:

So the entire swoop on the West Bank against Hamas, which soon escalated into all-out war, was based on a a false premise, uttered by Bibi Netanyahu thus: “Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay.” It’s worth recalling in that context that Hamas had recently been very quiet on the rockets front:
Fewer rockets were fired from Gaza in 2013 than in any year since 2001, and nearly all those that were fired between the November 2012 ceasefire and the current crisis were launched by groups other than Hamas; the Israeli security establishment testified to the aggressive anti-rocket efforts made by the new police force Hamas established specifically for that purpose.

Just because Hamas didn`t sponsor the rocket attacks makes no difference at all!! Hamas is the government elected by the Palestinians and as such is responsible to stop all rocket attacks on Israeli citizens!!

 

[cabri]

If a gov can't control every single one of it's citizens, then the blame still rests on the gov.
Ya..something like that..

Israel accepts responsibility for the actions of it's citizens.
Are you stating that Hamas does not.

Hamas diverts the materials intended for humanitarian reasons for military purposes.
Tunnels do not get built with Hamas knowing.
Goods coming through the tunnels have "taxes" applies; either for the use of the tunnels or the goods themselves.
Hamas knows who is launching the rockets; it takes time/skill to build a rocket and setup for firing.
If their group is not launching; they knew and tolerate/accept/encourage those that are doing so.

Hamas is not proclaiming their innocence on rocket launches; they are actually proudly advertising being responsible for such.

 

[cabri]

How can a government conspire with itself? That doesn't make any sense.

I do find it amusing that when it comes to the American government you see lies and trickery everywhere, but when it comes to the Israeli government their justifications are just taken at face value, even when they are exposed to be bullshit.

We now know that the claim that Hamas was behind the kidnapping/murder was a lie. So since their stated justification was a lie, there presumably has to be another justification. Logic 101.

Hamas was complicit in that they never denied being responsible for the act and also the Palestinians have not attempted to identify/arrest those responsible.

The high freq of rocket launchs started after Israel did the sweeps on the West Bank. Israel did not start attacking Gaza until after the rocket frequency increases.

Or is that portion of the timeline conveniently being overlooked.

 

[Brovane]

Rockets are regularly fired from Gaza into Israeli and the nation of Israeli has to strike back. One rocket attack is one to many. Let's look at 2014, January 22 rocket attacks, February 9 rocket attacks, March 65 rocket attacks, April 19 rockets, May 4 rockets and June 53 rockets. These rockets come from Gaza. If Palestinians don't want to be attacked then make sure militants in Gaza don't fire rockets at Israeli.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Israel accepts responsibility for the actions of it's citizens.
Are you stating that Hamas does not.

Hamas diverts the materials intended for humanitarian reasons for military purposes.
Tunnels do not get built with Hamas knowing.
Goods coming through the tunnels have "taxes" applies; either for the use of the tunnels or the goods themselves.
Hamas knows who is launching the rockets; it takes time/skill to build a rocket and setup for firing.
If their group is not launching; they knew and tolerate/accept/encourage those that are doing so.

Hamas is not proclaiming their innocence on rocket launches; they are actually proudly advertising being responsible for such.

Is Israel able to stop the settlers from building settlements? Who's paying for those settlements?

 

[werepossum]

How can a government conspire with itself? That doesn't make any sense.

I do find it amusing that when it comes to the American government you see lies and trickery everywhere, but when it comes to the Israeli government their justifications are just taken at face value, even when they are exposed to be bullshit.

We now know that the claim that Hamas was behind the kidnapping/murder was a lie. So since their stated justification was a lie, there presumably has to be another justification. Logic 101.

Obviously Israel government is conspiring within itself to build the Greater Israel while hiding the extent of it utter vileness from the greater world. Unfortunately for them, you, sir, have uncovered their deception and exposed them for the lying, rocket-loving Jew pig-dogs they are.

After all, when Hamas tells Israel that it is behind only some of the rockets attacking it and that anyone could have used the tunnels Hamas built to kidnap and murder Israeli children to kidnap and murder these particular Israeli children, Hamas is logically free of guilt. Why, if Israel was not a bunch of evil murderous Jews they would have unilaterally upped the quota of acceptable rocket attacks just to compensate Hamas for the inexcusable rudeness of even having to answer such an obviously baseless accusation.

Whoever taught you Logic 101 got some 'splainin' to do.

 

[werepossum]

Is Israel able to stop the settlers from building settlements? Who's paying for those settlements?

Why on Earth would Israel WANT to stop the settlers from building settlements? Israeli settlers are fairly unanimous in not firing rockets and mortars back at other Israels.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Why on Earth would Israel WANT to stop the settlers from building settlements? Israeli settlers are fairly unanimous in not firing rockets and mortars back at other Israels.

there has been a rise in violent acts by fringe extremists against Palestinians and Israel Police and IDF troops

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settler_violence

 

[cabri]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settler_violence

Against IDF forces and police. they want to interfere with what is felt to be their God given right.

 

[fskimospy]

Obviously Israel government is conspiring within itself to build the Greater Israel while hiding the extent of it utter vileness from the greater world. Unfortunately for them, you, sir, have uncovered their deception and exposed them for the lying, rocket-loving Jew pig-dogs they are.

After all, when Hamas tells Israel that it is behind only some of the rockets attacking it and that anyone could have used the tunnels Hamas built to kidnap and murder Israeli children to kidnap and murder these particular Israeli children, Hamas is logically free of guilt. Why, if Israel was not a bunch of evil murderous Jews they would have unilaterally upped the quota of acceptable rocket attacks just to compensate Hamas for the inexcusable rudeness of even having to answer such an obviously baseless accusation.

Whoever taught you Logic 101 got some 'splainin' to do.

It's funny to watch you implicitly accept that I'm right and that Israel is lying, but then find a way to justify not changing your opinion anyway. This, combined with the veiled accusations of anti-semitism is pretty much the same dishonesty we can expect from you.

Israel is the one that claimed they were attacking because of the kidnappings. I'm sorry that the people you are choosing to support lied to you. That's not your fault. Your decision to then continue believing their lies is your fault though. Hilarious that the man who sees a vast conspiracy among countless government agencies, media outlets, progressives in general, etc is so desperate to believe another government.

I guess so long as the government isn't run by the hated progressives you'll believe anything they tell you.

 

[fskimospy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settler_violence

I wonder how he will dismiss this inconvenient information.

 

[werepossum]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settler_violence

Oh, I am not at all surprised that the settlers are violent and getting more so. To become one of 500 Jews inside 160,000 Palestinians is not the act of someone out to better themselves, it's the act of someone wanting to claim the land on the basis of religion and willing to risk death to do so. My comment was about Israel. Why would Israel want to stop the settlers from building settlements? Israeli settlers are fairly unanimous in not firing rockets and mortars back at other Israels. Should Israel then be as concerned about violence done to those firing rockets and mortars at them as about the rockets and mortars fired at them? Perhaps if one totally discounts the value of the Israelis' lives, but people seldom discount the value of their own lives.