The lie behind the war

[werepossum]

It's funny to watch you implicitly accept that I'm right and that Israel is lying, but then find a way to justify not changing your opinion anyway. This, combined with the veiled accusations of anti-semitism is pretty much the same dishonesty we can expect from you.

Israel is the one that claimed they were attacking because of the kidnappings. I'm sorry that the people you are choosing to support lied to you. That's not your fault. Your decision to then continue believing their lies is your fault though. Hilarious that the man who sees a vast conspiracy among countless government agencies, media outlets, progressives in general, etc is so desperate to believe another government.

I guess so long as the government isn't run by the hated progressives you'll believe anything they tell you.

If you read that as me agreeing with you (or that the accusations of anti-semitism were veiled) then frankly I'm at a loss how to respond. Maybe pictures . . .

Anybody know if Jane and Spot are doing anything on Israel?

 

[fskimospy]

If you read that as me agreeing with you (or that the accusations of anti-semitism were veiled) then frankly I'm at a loss how to respond. Maybe pictures . . .

Anybody know if Jane and Spot are doing anything on Israel?

No need to respond. I was just noticing your selective credulity. It's too late for you to change it now, although maybe you can find a way to blame progressives for it.

 

[cubby1223]

Curious for knowledge purposes, when a rocket is fired, or a kidnapping takes place, how do we determine if it was Hamas or not? Is there an official secretary keeping track of the daily agenda, how many authorized rockets were fired and by whom, how many authorized kidnappings took place. Do people of Hamas identify themselves with badges?


I mean, for a Hamas rocket attack to be concealed under the alibi that "it wasn't us", someone would have to go through the very difficult and complex procedure of giving the rocket to someone else, telling that person to fire it off, then claim he didn't know anything about it. It's very complex bordering on impossible to pull off! Oh wait, no it isn't, that is actually a remarkably simple system to carry out.

In other words, there is no grand enlightenment moment in this thread.

Next

 

[werepossum]

Curious for knowledge purposes, when a rocket is fired, or a kidnapping takes place, how do we determine if it was Hamas or not? Is there an official secretary keeping track of the daily agenda, how many authorized rockets were fired and by whom, how many authorized kidnappings took place. Do people of Hamas identify themselves with badges?

I mean, for a Hamas rocket attack to be concealed under the alibi that "it wasn't us", someone would have to go through the very difficult and complex procedure of giving the rocket to someone else, telling that person to fire it off, then claim he didn't know anything about it. It's very complex bordering on impossible to pull off! Oh wait, no it isn't, that is actually a remarkably simple system to carry out.

In other words, there is no grand enlightenment moment in this thread.

Next

Well, duh. We ask them. If there's one thing that people who proudly launch rockets at civilians and kidnap and/or murder children are universally known for, it's their honesty.

Then of course we also have to ask them if the number of rocket attacks they admit making and the number of civilians they admit kidnapping and/or killing are actually worthy of a response, 'cause turns out that usually they aren't. Israel should just write them off as dead to be safe. Admittedly that gives the kidnappers more time to torture them and safely dispose of the bodies, but we can simply ask them to make sure that never happens.

 

[fskimospy]

Curious for knowledge purposes, when a rocket is fired, or a kidnapping takes place, how do we determine if it was Hamas or not? Is there an official secretary keeping track of the daily agenda, how many authorized rockets were fired and by whom, how many authorized kidnappings took place. Do people of Hamas identify themselves with badges?


I mean, for a Hamas rocket attack to be concealed under the alibi that "it wasn't us", someone would have to go through the very difficult and complex procedure of giving the rocket to someone else, telling that person to fire it off, then claim he didn't know anything about it. It's very complex bordering on impossible to pull off! Oh wait, no it isn't, that is actually a remarkably simple system to carry out.

In other words, there is no grand enlightenment moment in this thread.

Next

Countries have intelligence agencies for this sort of things. I would strongly recommend reading up on this issue in particular and why people are so sure it's not Hamas proper.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Why on Earth would Israel WANT to stop the settlers from building settlements? Israeli settlers are fairly unanimous in not firing rockets and mortars back at other Israels.

I suspect the main reason you would want to stop building the settlements is that they are on territory that doesn't actually belong to Israel.

 

[nextJin]

The IDF should just clear out all of Gaza and expand it's borders. Lying about their reasons seems like a pretty absurd justification when they have rockets fired all the time. They should honestly just clear and occupy 30 miles in every direction of their borders. It's not like anyone would/could stop them.

 

[Thebobo]

, and tunnels dug under our towns to kidnap and murder our people.
.

So you are saying the tunnels were meant to kidnap and murder people? That makes no sense. How many have been murdered and kidnaped due to these tunnels?

 

[Borealis7]

So you are saying the tunnels were meant to kidnap and murder people? That makes no sense. How many have been murdered and kidnaped due to these tunnels?

just because they failed doesn't mean they weren't trying. watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6Dc8MVREVU

there are plenty of other examples. it's basically their "best tactic".

 

[Harabec]

Most definitely not, kind sir. The tunnels were meant to be a bridge between two warring cultures, to bring peace and prosperity to all...


Gliad Shalit first, then several soldiers, plus a few Hamas squads who were kill or chased back after exiting the tunnels on the Israeli side.

 

[emperus]

just because they failed doesn't mean they weren't trying. watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6Dc8MVREVU

there are plenty of other examples. it's basically their "best tactic".

I'm always amazed at the juxtaposition of Israeli and Palestinian images. Even in this clip, I see people riding bikes and in other, people sitting at Cafe's drinking tea. I thought Israel were being terrorized by these missiles.

And then we are talking about Palestinians building tunnels to attack Israel. I guess if they had Jets and Helicopters (the kind used to bomb the Palestinians, which incited this war), crossing the border would be easier, no?

I mean you can't occupy a people in a open air prison and then wonder why they are fighting back.

 

[fskimospy]

I'm always amazed at the juxtaposition of Israeli and Palestinian images. Even in this clip, I see people riding bikes and in other, people sitting at Cafe's drinking tea. I thought Israel were being terrorized by these missiles.

And then we are talking about Palestinians building tunnels to attack Israel. I guess if they had Jets and Helicopters (the kind used to bomb the Palestinians, which incited this war), crossing the border would be easier, no?

I mean you can't occupy a people in a open air prison and then wonder why they are fighting back.

If the Israeli position isn't simply to run out the clock while they continue to build settlements then their activities make no sense. The way things are currently set up where Israel has confined millions of people into what amount to Palestinian ghettos they will face constant rebellion. This is just basic human nature.

Invasions like this aren't the consequences of some special circumstances, they are the inevitable result of this policy.

 

[Borealis7]

I'm always amazed at the juxtaposition of Israeli and Palestinian images. Even in this clip, I see people riding bikes and in other, people sitting at Cafe's drinking tea. I thought Israel were being terrorized by these missiles.

then you don't know what's going on. the streets in cities nearer to the Gaza strip are empty. people don't leave their homes and some barely leave the shelters they moved to out of fear.
thanks to the IDF and it's Iron Dome, there have been minimal civilian casualties on the israeli side.

And then we are talking about Palestinians building tunnels to attack Israel. I guess if they had Jets and Helicopters (the kind used to bomb the Palestinians, which incited this war), crossing the border would be easier, no?

they shouldn't be crossing the border. aren't they at war with israel?

I mean you can't occupy a people in a open air prison and then wonder why they are fighting back.

it's not the 'fighting back' which is the problem, it's the way Hamas does it by indiscriminately firing at civilian population and using it's own people as human shields.

 

[emperus]

then you don't know what's going on. the streets in cities nearer to the Gaza strip are empty. people don't leave their homes and some barely leave the shelters they moved to out of fear.
thanks to the IDF and it's Iron Dome, there have been minimal civilian casualties on the israeli side.

Can you tell me what the civilian casualties have been on both sides?

they shouldn't be crossing the border. aren't they at war with israel?

I would assume the same could be said about Israel. Remember this war re-ignited when Israel went into Gaza after the children were "abducted" (Isreal knew they were already dead), blames Hamas (when they knew Hamas wasn't responsible) searched 1,000's of homes, destroyed property, imprisoned 100's of people and killed about 5 people (some in an airstrike). It seems to be disingenuous to then be complaining about Palestinians crossing the border.

it's not the 'fighting back' which is the problem, it's the way Hamas does it by indiscriminately firing at civilian population and using it's own people as human shields

Indiscriminate, like killing more than 1000 civilians, some say 30% being children. Or bombing a UN school, or the only Power Plant, or children playing soccer on a beach? Let me ask you again, how many Israeli soldiers have been killed? How many Israeli civilians have been killed?

 

[nehalem256]

the Israeli government knew from the get-go that the murderers of three Israeli teens – the incident that set off this bloody chain of events – were not doing official Hamas’ bidding even in the West Bank, let alone Gaza

Ah, so Hamas is just pulling an Obama. They have no idea what is going on

 

[nehalem256]

So you are saying the tunnels were meant to kidnap and murder people? That makes no sense. How many have been murdered and kidnaped due to these tunnels?

What non-nefarious reason do you think the tunnels were built for?

 

[Borealis7]

it doesn't all come down to X dead vs. Y dead. the Germans had 10 times more casualties than the British had in WW2, does that mean the British have oppressed and committed genocide on the Germans???

 

[cabri]

If Hamas places their civilians as shields, in harms way, places civilians on top of targets, refuses to allow the civilians to leave; that is Israel's problem?

Israel tells the civilians to get out.

Hamas is accomplishing exactly with you what they want; sympathy for the civilians, ignoring they why and the fact that war exists.

Israel is just better prepared to protect it's civilians which is why the death toll on that side is so low.

Hamas only wants a truce (not peace) on their terms and has shown that they will not honor a truce.

Both sides have to agree and at this point neither side is willing; goals have not been accomplished.
Hamas wants world opinion/pressure which is only obtained by excessive causalities and sob stories to shut Israel down and release Hamas/Gaza to be able to do what they want against Israel without oversight.
Israel wants Hamas fully beaten down; this scenario is again a rinse/repeat because Hamas refuses to stop attacks against Israel and Israel stops due to external pressure before eliminating Hamas as a military threat.

Israel knows and the world is seeing that Hamas shutting down voluntarily will not stop the cycle.

In war, you need to defeat the opponent before accepting peace; otherwise, they keep on being a pain. Look at the Korea situation.

 

[Raizinman]

I believe that Israel takes the trajectory of the rocket and fires rockets in at the place of where the rocket was fired, plus or minus a bit depending on what type of population is there. As for knowing who fires the rockets, I do know that Hamas rockets are pretty much a specific configuration and after examination of the remaining rocket parts, it can be determined the model of the rocket. So by using trajectory and doing a forensic of the exploded or non-exploded (many rockets don't explode) Israel can tell with pretty much certainty where and who fired the rocket.

 

[Borealis7]

I believe that Israel takes the trajectory of the rocket and fires rockets in at the place of where the rocket was fired, plus or minus a bit depending on what type of population is there. As for knowing who fires the rockets, I do know that Hamas rockets are pretty much a specific configuration and after examination of the remaining rocket parts, it can be determined the model of the rocket. So by using trajectory and doing a forensic of the exploded or non-exploded (many rockets don't explode) Israel can tell with pretty much certainty where and who fired the rocket.

that is quite easy...a big trail of smoke stems from where the rocket was fired.

 

[emperus]

If Hamas places their civilians as shields, in harms way, places civilians on top of targets, refuses to allow the civilians to leave; that is Israel's problem?

Israel tells the civilians to get out.

Hamas is accomplishing exactly with you what they want; sympathy for the civilians, ignoring they why and the fact that war exists.

Israel is just better prepared to protect it's civilians which is why the death toll on that side is so low.

Hamas only wants a truce (not peace) on their terms and has shown that they will not honor a truce.

Both sides have to agree and at this point neither side is willing; goals have not been accomplished.
Hamas wants world opinion/pressure which is only obtained by excessive causalities and sob stories to shut Israel down and release Hamas/Gaza to be able to do what they want against Israel without oversight.
Israel wants Hamas fully beaten down; this scenario is again a rinse/repeat because Hamas refuses to stop attacks against Israel and Israel stops due to external pressure before eliminating Hamas as a military threat.

Israel knows and the world is seeing that Hamas shutting down voluntarily will not stop the cycle.

In war, you need to defeat the opponent before accepting peace; otherwise, they keep on being a pain. Look at the Korea situation.

Lol. Such propaganda. How exactly is Hamas placing their citizens as shields? Are they tying them up? When the Israeli's bomb a UN school, was that Hamas's doing? Where are the civilians going? You know what an open air prison is right?

Let me ask you, why do you think the Palestinians are fighting Israel?

 

[emperus]

it doesn't all come down to X dead vs. Y dead. the Germans had 10 times more casualties than the British had in WW2, does that mean the British have oppressed and committed genocide on the Germans???

I must have missed your post with the Israeli and Palestinian civilian and military casualties.

 

[Anarchist420]

I dont know why so many Americans care so much about what goes on in the middle east when the former are about to experience hyperinflation and being closed in.

I mean, yes the israelis are on land stolen from the arabs (ben gurion admitted it), yes the israelis contribute more good to the world than the arabs do (i.e., arabs rape people wherever they go, every once in a while israelis invent useful tech) but i will never understand why so many people want everyone to be forced into intervening.

 

[cabri]

Lol. Such propaganda. How exactly is Hamas placing their citizens as shields? Are they tying them up? When the Israeli's bomb a UN school, was that Hamas's doing? Where are the civilians going? You know what an open air prison is right?

Let me ask you, why do you think the Palestinians are fighting Israel?

1. How exactly is Hamas placing their citizens as shields?
   • Hamas is telling the civilians to NOT evacuate
   • Hamas is placing/using weapons from civilian locations hoping that Israel will not target those areas because it is civilian.
2. When the Israeli's bomb a UN school, was that Hamas's doing?
   • When a UN school has weapons stored in it, it becomes a valid target.
   • When the UN people hand the weapons over to Hamas, they lose the shield of neutrality.
   • Israel also has stated that Hamas weapons that have been misfired are hitting the school - Remember that Hamas likes to stage for publicity
   • Hamas has launched weapons from with school grounds.
3. Where are the civilians going?
   • Civilians have the ability to evacuate away from the areas that Israel has identified
   • They are not required (except by Hamas) to stay in the target area.
   • Gaza has open land and other population areas that they can get to.
4. You know what an open air prison is right?
   Israel is not attacking all of Gaza

 

[werepossum]

I suspect the main reason you would want to stop building the settlements is that they are on territory that doesn't actually belong to Israel.

Setting aside the fact that this is land Israel captured in a war - the way most nations got most of their land - imagine you have a neighbor who regularly tries to kill you. Then imagine squatters move into his house - squatters pretty much just like you. The squatters don't try to kill you, ever. Now, you may know your neighbor SHOULD get his house back, but I bet you wouldn't WANT him to get his house back.

Most definitely not, kind sir. The tunnels were meant to be a bridge between two warring cultures, to bring peace and prosperity to all...


Gliad Shalit first, then several soldiers, plus a few Hamas squads who were kill or chased back after exiting the tunnels on the Israeli side.

lol Yep, except the Palestinians' recipe for peace requires you to assume room temperature.

Ah, so Hamas is just pulling an Obama. They have no idea what is going on

lol +1
Perhaps Hamas just read about this in the paper.