The liberals $43 billion train to no where...

[infoiltrator]

IF energy costs keep rising, everything will cost more than planned. The train should allow more carry on baggage and freight than airlines. Rentable electric cars could be a built in feature at both ends, perfect for commuting.
Trains make their money on Freight. I would expect high speed freight between the two cities to pay a lot of the bills.
Expect at least UPS, FEDEX, etc to use it over aircraft.
And if it fails, we need to know that too.

 

[chowderhead]

The CHSRA disputes those numbers but do not offer data on how they calculate the per passenger mile costs. They are using the same engineering firm that oversaw The Big Dig in Boston which went 6x over budget ( most likely more after interest costs). The CHSRA has consistently misled and flat out lied about costs, ridership, timeframe, and economic benefit regarding this project. They should not be trusted. Governor Brown doesn't care and will push this through the Democratic legislature. It's a total waste of money (2 billion is about the amount of the state's contribution to the UC system for the entire year). Everyone is just trying to rush this through so they can say the cannot stop now. I hope they get sued for completely ignoring what was passed previously or the new initiative makes it onto the ballot that defunds this project and disbands the CHSRA.

 

[davmat787]

The CHSRA disputes those numbers but do not offer data on how they calculate the per passenger mile costs. They are using the same engineering firm that oversaw The Big Dig in Boston which went 6x over budget ( most likely more after interest costs). The CHSRA has consistently misled and flat out lied about costs, ridership, timeframe, and economic benefit regarding this project. They should not be trusted. Governor Brown doesn't care and will push this through the Democratic legislature. It's a total waste of money (2 billion is about the amount of the state's contribution to the UC system for the entire year). Everyone is just trying to rush this through so they can say the cannot stop now. I hope they get sued for completely ignoring what was passed previously or the new initiative makes it onto the ballot that defunds this project and disbands the CHSRA.

Thanks for your insight on this, I take it you are in CA? Do you know if the CHSRA was formed due to this project? Obviously the CHSRA employees, and especially upper level heads, have a stake in keeping this thing going. As long as a project like this is active, they can probably realize 10+ years, if not work for the rest of their careers, of considerable salaray, benefits, and retirement. Guess what I am saying is this "authority" may not have the most objective take on the situation, when they are supposed to be looking out for the taxpayer. Unfortunately this is nothing new if this is indeed the case.

 

[chowderhead]

The CHSRA just hired a vice president of Parsons Brinckerhoff, the engineering firm that was in charge of the Big Dig (6x over budget) as their new Chief Executive. Mr. Jeffrey Morales also headed Caltrans under Governor Gray Davis (Bay Bridge retrofit estimated 1.1 billion to now 6.2 billion and years behind schedule). This is shameful but highly expected. Governor Brown will rubber stamp this along with the Democrats in the legislature while California will have to cut school funding, aid to the poor, healthcare, park funding, AND local transit funding etc. This is a complete waste of money.

 

[davmat787]

The CHSRA just hired a vice president of Parsons Brinckerhoff, the engineering firm that was in charge of the Big Dig (6x over budget) as their new Chief Executive. Mr. Jeffrey Morales also headed Caltrans under Governor Gray Davis (Bay Bridge retrofit estimated 1.1 billion to now 6.2 billion and years behind schedule). This is shameful but highly expected. Governor Brown will rubber stamp this along with the Democrats in the legislature while California will have to cut school funding, aid to the poor, healthcare, park funding, AND local transit funding etc. This is a complete waste of money.

That is simply shameful. And don't forget folks, CA receives federal money from all of us taxpayers for this boondoggle.

Someone said CA's annual University budget is 2 billion, if that is correct it provides quite the contrast when compared with all of these cost overruns.

 

[monovillage]

The CHSRA just hired a vice president of Parsons Brinckerhoff, the engineering firm that was in charge of the Big Dig (6x over budget) as their new Chief Executive. Mr. Jeffrey Morales also headed Caltrans under Governor Gray Davis (Bay Bridge retrofit estimated 1.1 billion to now 6.2 billion and years behind schedule). This is shameful but highly expected. Governor Brown will rubber stamp this along with the Democrats in the legislature while California will have to cut school funding, aid to the poor, healthcare, park funding, AND local transit funding etc. This is a complete waste of money.

It was then California State Attorney General Jerry Brown that allowed them to lie their asses off when they wrote the Proposition to pass high speed rail and now it's Governor Jerry Brown who's raking in the cash, the deals and the union blowjobs. No surprise, just another corrupt Democrat machine.

 

[rchiu]

Well CA is facing a difficult dilemma. US has lost competitiveness and skills in large construction project, especially in high speedrail, where US has absolute no expertise in.

The only way to be effective in this project is to outsource. I believe there are 3 countries in the world that has pretty good expertise. Japan, France and China. Either way, if you out source, US employment won't benefit from this project. If you keep it in house, the cost will the hugely prohibitive, with extremely high risk of escalating because of this lack of expertise.

So Gary Davis need to make clear what exactly is the purpose of this project. Is it 1) make investment in CA infrastructure with actual return on investment? or 2) Another liberal handout to special interests groups?

If it's 1) time to swallow the pride and get some outside experts in, and get a good estimate on the cost and projected return and present it to the CA people. If the estimate, projection, and assumption is sound, fine, make a business decision.

Unfortunately, like the money handed to the solar enegery companies, this is just another political decision using tax payers money.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Well CA is facing a difficult dilemma. US has lost competitiveness and skills in large construction project, especially in high speedrail, where US has absolute no expertise in.

The only way to be effective in this project is to outsource. I believe there are 3 countries in the world that has pretty good expertise. Japan, France and China. Either way, if you out source, US employment won't benefit from this project. If you keep it in house, the cost will the hugely prohibitive, with extremely high risk of escalating because of this lack of expertise.

So Jerry Brown need to make clear what exactly is the purpose of this project. Is it 1) make investment in CA infrastructure with actual return on investment? or 2) Another liberal handout to special interests groups?

If it's 1) time to swallow the pride and get some outside experts in, and get a good estimate on the cost and projected return and present it to the CA people. If the estimate, projection, and assumption is sound, fine, make a business decision.

Unfortunately, like the money handed to the solar enegery companies, this is just another political decision using tax payers money.

FTFY

 

[rchiu]

FTFY

Haha, yeah, same liberal democrat governor...all the same to me.

 

[PokerGuy]

If anyone is surprised by the explosion in cost, the lies used to sell the idea to the public, the massive delays in implementation, the crooked organization built up around this effort, they need to have their head examined. All this stuff is not an aberration, it's the norm for these large boondoggles. We're the idiots who keep paying for it. Of course, when you have people who believe more spending is always better, blowing out the budget is not a problem, it's just more government spending - what could be better than that?

 

[Genx87]

I am shocked the govt lied to the people about the costs and revenue projections of this project. In MN we get to witness our own bit of lying. The Democrats passed a stadium bill to buy a billionaire a new football stadium. You know, helping the little guy right? They are paying for it via allowing electronic pulltabs and bingo's for charity. Think their revenue projections will hold up? If they dont my democrat representative didnt have an answer where the money would come. But I suspect it will be from the general fund.

Anyways I digress. This project in CA is another example of an infrastructure project mismanaged by politicians.

 

[Ninjahedge]

If this is about the HSR down the back of Cali, I saw a bit of that the other day.

I forget who the guy was, but the exec of the company that provided the initial report said "Well, this was just a preliminary waiting for comment. It was not meant to be used as the final budget" *shrug*.

He is probably right. An initial estimate came out to give an ORDER OF MAGNITUDE for the cost of the project back in 2008. For people to be surprised that further study of the project shows that it would probably amount to at least 3X more than that (4 years after the initial PRELIMINARY estimate) is rather odd.

Take it for what it is worth, literally. Asses the estimate, see how practical it is, and stop dancing around before we get a slow high speed rail in Cali that is no better than the crap we have on the east coast.

 

[EagleKeeper]

I am shocked the govt lied to the people about the costs and revenue projections of this project. In MN we get to witness our own bit of lying. The Democrats passed a stadium bill to buy a billionaire a new football stadium. You know, helping the little guy right? They are paying for it via allowing electronic pulltabs and bingo's for charity. Think their revenue projections will hold up? If they dont my democrat representative didnt have an answer where the money would come. But I suspect it will be from the general fund.

Anyways I digress. This project in CA is another example of an infrastructure project mismanaged by politicians.

The similar happened (almost) in Vegas back in the '05 time frame.

Someone was pushing for light rail from the South to the North.
surveys were run; preliminaries drawn up and then presented to the public.

What a mess. surface instead of underground. that meant affecting major arteries. building grades and crossings.

Running it on the back side of the strip (I15 side) - forcing employees to walk across two casino properties to get to their employee entrances.

Once downtown, then heading along a "potential" commercial artery to a "future" college campus.

Now it made a job to UNLV but not to the airport. Two other Community colleges were ignored.

Ridership projections were based on casino workers; there is not a lot of 9-5 in Vegas. Such prevents adjusting of train capacity.

The option of express buses was completely ignored during the planning.

A lot of support was from investors that held property need the planned rail stops. they were pushing that investment in buildings and employment would come in near the rail stops.

Lucky the voters said HELL NO.

 

[Ninjahedge]

Mass transit is usually a thing that is not designed by the masses.

As soon as you do, you start getting so many conflicting provisions all you can do is scream "Eminent Domain!!!"

 

[EagleKeeper]

Mass transit is usually a thing that is not designed by the masses.

As soon as you do, you start getting so many conflicting provisions all you can do is scream "Eminent Domain!!!"

Not designed by the masses; but for the masses.
Use transportation specialists that are familiar with the area, not special consultants that are told what the results need to be.

 

[woolfe9999]

Ran across an article, so I thought I would update the thread. Personally, I like the idea of HSR when implemented on the right routes and where it financially makes sense. However, it appears this project in CA was mismanaged from the start, and reliant on projections that were extremely unlikely. Would like to hear from any in CA that are more familiar with this project especially.



http://www.businessinsider.com/the-great-train-robbery-california-version-2012-5

Honestly, I've tried to form an objective opinion about this project, and there is now so much conflicting information it is nearly impossible. There have been several studies and reports from both the CHSRA and outside groups on both sides of the issue. Debated important details include operating costs per mile (referenced in your article), impact on carbon emissions, expected passenger density (demand), and the magnitude of savings from avoided alternative costs (basically highway and airport constructions, which are also expensive and subject to their own cost overruns.) I don't know the truth of the matter, but it's interesting to watch the ping pong ball go back and forth.

For this latest, here is the CHSRA's response to the report regarding operating costs which you bolded in your linked article:

http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/assets/0/152/327/8d684ec9-800a-4143-812f-28a1f2f088a9.pdf

I don't know the truth of many of these disputed issues, but this response makes a point that is hard to ignore. The outside report accessed data from other HSR systems abroad, extrapolated cost per passenger per mile, then compared it to the CHSRA's operating cost estimates. The trouble is the outside report is looking at per passenger per mile and the CHSRA's analysis is looking at per seat per mile, which they claim is the industry standard way to measure it. What the outside report is doing, essentially, is making an apples to oranges comparison to argue that CHSRA's costs estimates are dramatically lower than existing HSR systems. CHSRA claims that its estimates are right in line with these other systems, more than some and less than others.

- wolf

 

[redgtxdi]

Just in case anyone *FOR* this HSR is still of the delusion that it's still a good thing...........

#1.) This had nothing to do with HSR in the first place. The God-forsaken state of California simply wanted federal money and there was nowhere else to take it from.

#2.) This had nothing to do with infastructure. In fact, it couldn't have been further from the necessity of such. There are too many roads, bridges and metropolitan areas that need service before ANY such HSR were to mean SQUAT in this state. (Especially when the airlines have this solution wrapped up circa 20 years ago)

#3.) The crack crew (I think they mean "smoked crack") who did all the projections & crap on this thing lied thru their teeth. Before someone dug into Amtrak's passenger history for the ENTIRE country which INCLUDED provinces in Canada....(again circa 30 million TOTAL)....you want to know what the # of estimated passengers they expected this thing to serve? It was something like 114 MILLION PEOPLE. Seriously?? Who the F tried to pass that off??? 30 million in the whole country & suddenly we're gonna stick 114 million on ONE RAIL??? Only the Sacto clowns.

This thing isn't a train..........it's a train-wreck and will never see the light of day, thank goodness!! It's over before it started. Now we just need the state to go bankrupt so it can open all the CBA books and start over like a state that knows its @$$ from a hole in the ground!!!

/rant

 

[Slew Foot]

Looks like the stupid liberal sheep are starting to realize theyve been lied to. Nearly 60% want to overturn the project.

http://news.yahoo.com/poll-voters-turn-against-california-bullet-train-214723961.html

 

[monovillage]

Looks like the stupid liberal sheep are starting to realize theyve been lied to. Nearly 60% want to overturn the project.

http://news.yahoo.com/poll-voters-turn-against-california-bullet-train-214723961.html

It's not buyers remorse as much as it's anger that they were blatantly lied to by the proponents of HSR including a number of politicians.

 

[Slew Foot]

It's not buyers remorse as much as it's anger that they were blatantly lied to by the proponents of HSR including a number of politicians.

I like the stat, "0% say they will use it more than once a week."

 

[JS80]

Looks like the stupid liberal sheep are starting to realize theyve been lied to. Nearly 60% want to overturn the project.

http://news.yahoo.com/poll-voters-turn-against-california-bullet-train-214723961.html

What scares me is that only 60% want it overturned. Meaning this state is fucking made up of 40% psycho delusional Craigs.


No insults or personal attacks in P&N.

Administrator Idontcare

 

[ShawnD1]

What scares me is that only 60% want it overturned. Meaning this state is fucking made up of 40% psycho delusional Craigs.

It's possible the other 40% are people who would benefit from the project. Construction workers, engineers, etc. Maybe the guy who makes donairs at the planned location of one of the stops.

 

[Jadow]

in WI Scott Walker killed the SSR (slow speed rail) that the dems tried to shove down our throats between milwaukee and madison. AMEN

 

[ichy]

Unlike some people I'm not ideologically opposed to trains (OMG, mass transit = socialism!) but this CA high speed rail project looks like a catastrophe in the making.

I've said this many times before but if we're going to invest in high speed rail the place to start is in the Northeast Corridor. We know the demand is there (East Coast airports are clogged and Acela Express already turns a profit even though it's an awful joke of a high speed train) and with some spending on infrastructure we could turn it into a really valuable economic asset. Once it's shown that HSR can be done properly there than maybe other projects will be taken more seriously.

 

[Ninjahedge]

ichy, I agree too and I have been arguing it for about 20 years now.

The problem is, for the same reason the NE needs it is why it can't have it. Eminent Domain.

Too many people LIVE and work here, so it is difficult to get the strait-lines needed to put in a good HSR. Add to it the topography and you will have some more difficulties.

Having a HSR from Boston to NY to DC would be outstanding. Being able to hop on a train in NYC and be in Boston in 2 hours is great! (hell, maybe even visit a spot in CT), but the second problem is that everybody wants a stop on the line. Convincing people that the only spots that would be worth it are those three would be difficult.

You get areas like Trenton saying "HEY!", and you get a bump out to central Jersey. Then you get a suburb that says "you are not coming through out area w/o a stop!" and before you know it, you have a half dozen new stops to places that are not vital to a HSR system.

Now, as for all the political drum beaters. Screaming about the "dems" shoving this or that down everyone's throat, we have to remember that ALL politicians do this. Remember the "bridge to nowhere" from our Alaskan Republican?

What we need to focus on is the problem, not the party label. Maybe if we stop looking at the little (X) after a reps name and what they actually DO we will start getting REPRESENTATIVES rather than shills that dance the party dance.