The liberals $43 billion train to no where...

[Ninjahedge]

Next time you are stuck in traffic, go look at the airspace you keep insisting that we will run out of. Then look back at the traffic and amount of space to expand roads. This is not an indictment against HSR, I just disagree with your assertion that we are, or will be, running out of "airspace".

Come to NYC and sit on the tarmac for 2 hours waiting for space to clear at LaGuardia and talk to me again about airspace....

 

[hal2kilo]

There are what, 4 major airports in LA.
Long Beach is currently expanding.
Ontario International Airport is international.
John Wayne is building/improving terminals.

I don't think that's going to get more airplanes physically in and out of SNA. There's no more room at that airport for runway and taxi way space.

 

[Ninjahedge]

Again, look at the NYC area.

JFK, Laguardia and Newark being some of the worlds largest airports (and that is ignoring all the small ones around it like Teterboro...)

You can say that you can just make another airport or improve ATC, but there is only so much you can do that before you start having problems.

And that does not even address how to GET to these airports.....

 

[ElFenix]

Answer the question.
If you compare the number of people traveling in 1994 to 2010 and it has increased by ~8 million while the amount of freight was increased by ~225,000 tons and the number of flights have decreased by 114,000 how is capacity going to be a problem?

That is a ~15% increase in people and ~13% increase in cargo while the number of flight have decreased by ~17%.

Now, the population of LA in 1990 (closet to 1994) was ~3.4 million while in 2010 (closest to 2011) it was ~3.8 million. This represents a ~11% increase in the city population.

So we increased the population by ~11%, increased air travel by ~15% and cargo by 13% but decreased the number of flights in/out LA by 17%.

Technology is already solving the "problem" you describe.

i'm going to guess what actually happened is that the average aircraft increased in size quite a bit, while flights operating smaller craft went to more of the outlying airports.


technology hasn't done shit because the ATC system is from the 1950s. there is a new one in the works but the airlines don't want to pay for upgrading all their fleet.

 

[Ninjahedge]

Because we do not want to pay an extra $10 a ticket for an infrastructure upgrade.

 

[chowderhead]

they are going to use 6 billion (initial estimates which is sure to increase if construction ever happens) to build tracks only from Bakersfield to a rural area north of Fresno. That is about 130 miles of tracks which works out to 46 million dollars a mile. This is supposed to the "easiest" part to build as it is relatively flat and few people live in the area except for cows. No stations, no trains just tracks. Watch the costs escalate if they ever reach populated areas that people actual may travel to. This is a track from nowhere to nowhere.

 

[monovillage]

Don't forget that this was a voter approved Proposition ...... of course the voters were lied to about how much it would cost, how long it would take and where it would be built. I guess it's easier to get this type of thing passed if you get to lie to the people about it.

 

[Bacstar]

Imagine when the tracks get to areas where field mice are threatened? The countless studies or lawsuits will cause a whole new set of headaches and price increases.

 

[JSt0rm]

Why didn't he just take the L.A. subway or the metro rail?

Those don't go to santa monica.

 

[JSt0rm]

Do you always make it this easy? The conclusion of your own linked paper states that there would likely be no net economic benefit from HSR, and that any effect would most likely be simply distributive and superfluous.

I know it's got a lot of words and charts and shit, but maybe you should read the shit you post before you make an idiot out of yourself.

Thanks for destroying your own argument though. Guess we can close this case.

I didn't read the paper. I made no conclusions as to what the paper said. You however said there wasn't a economic study done and I thought that to be improbable.

 

[JSt0rm]

oh and considering you lied once already I really don't believe your conclusions on the paper, however I don't have time to be correct on the internet so say what you will.

 

[bfdd]

Seriously... how many people in here talking shit on HSR are actually in California? What parts? If you're close enough to the coast to be considered part of the Bay, LA or San Diego, you should very fucking much want some high speed rail zipping all over the place. Our freeways are getting fucking packed and going through the air port is fucking ridiculous.

 

[Ns1]

Seriously... how many people in here talking shit on HSR are actually in California? What parts? If you're close enough to the coast to be considered part of the Bay, LA or San Diego, you should very fucking much want some high speed rail zipping all over the place. Our freeways are getting fucking packed and going through the air port is fucking ridiculous.

I want HSR, but not @100BN, and definitely not with the beginning portions of track connecting BFE south with BFE north


BTW burbank airport kicks ass.

 

[Ninjahedge]

I think I just felt the earth move....


bfdd, was that you?

 

[bfdd]

I want HSR, but not @100BN, and definitely not with the beginning portions of track connecting BFE south with BFE north


BTW burbank airport kicks ass.

Agreed with that, it is getting ridiculously expensive. I am wondering if part of the reason it's so expensive is due to our incredibly harsh CAL EPA and CALOSHA requirements? We probably should have made some exceptions. That way we could have actually pushed the project through, having worked in similar industries in California I know how hard it can be to get actual fucking work done.

 

[Ninjahedge]

bfdd, it is probably a mix of things.

But also, you have to realize that a HSR needs a lot of nice smooth almost strait rail to run on.

That works fine in the desert, but once you hit the area around San Fran with all its mountains, and you also hit a bunch of private property that you NEED to get through (regardless of eminent domain), the $$ starts to pile up....

 

[K1052]

Seriously... how many people in here talking shit on HSR are actually in California? What parts? If you're close enough to the coast to be considered part of the Bay, LA or San Diego, you should very fucking much want some high speed rail zipping all over the place. Our freeways are getting fucking packed and going through the air port is fucking ridiculous.

The initial segment probably should have been Burbank to SD (and a line over the mountains to Palmdale to hook into DesertXpress for Vegas) and let that operate for a few years to build support before pressing on to SF. LA has grown much more supportive in general of public transit and doesn't mind some disruption to actually accomplish something.

 

[JSt0rm]

We are in the planning phase of adding monorail support to the ocean. One of the planned stops is half a block from my studio. If I was able to take a monorail into Santa Monica from Beverly hills I would be over the moon.

 

[Slew Foot]

See this is the kind of guy who only shits information one way. I just got done talking about traveling to john Wayne airport (santa monica to burbank) being insane.

California. 60 million people. 2050. figure it out.

45 million of them will be illegal immigrants who wouldn't use the train anyway

 

[Ns1]

wait. I never said there wasnt going to be any more growth in the aviation sector. So I dont even know what we are talking about. I am talking about airspace congestion but I dont believe that will lead to negative growth in the airline sector. As you said there will be more airports but in addition to all of those things I think a high speed rail is a good idea. Because at some point the airport that is closest to me will be full.

Have you driven from burbank to santa monica? A kid I hired to help me on a project did that this morning. He left his house in burbank at 8am and got to me in santa monica at 10:40am.

We have light rail planned here in la that will connect to this high speed rail. We need this.

how is the burbank to SM thing relevant at all?

There's a metro/redline project underway to connect SM to the purple line. If that goes through, IMHO the next logical step is to connect Santa Monica purple line to NoHo redline.

HSR won't help this at all!

Santa Monica is a traffic shithole no matter where you are coming or going.

 

[fskimospy]

High speed trains aren't infrastructure, the are black holes.

Build some freeways if you want economic benefit.

Uhmmm, have you ever been to California? (I'm going to guess no, not that it stops you from opining about things you know nothing about)

They have freeways. Tons of freeways. More freeways than just about anywhere in the world. Expanding the freeway system further faces the problem of diminishing returns on investment.

Think before you post.

 

[Patranus]

Uhmmm, have you ever been to California? (I'm going to guess no, not that it stops you from opining about things you know nothing about)

They have freeways. Tons of freeways. More freeways than just about anywhere in the world. Expanding the freeway system further faces the problem of diminishing returns on investment.

Think before you post.

You continue to ignore the fact that people don't user the train infrastructure that is in place.
Wan't to go to Sacramento from the Bay Area? The train isn't high on the list of options.

Just because you build it doesn't mean people are going to use it so you are going to have to expand the freeways and airports anyways. What you end up with is $100 billion boondoggle.

 

[fskimospy]

You continue to ignore the fact that people don't user the train infrastructure that is in place.
Wan't to go to Sacramento from the Bay Area? The train isn't high on the list of options.

Just because you build it doesn't mean people are going to use it so you are going to have to expand the freeways and airports anyways. What you end up with is $100 billion boondoggle.

I really don't ignore it, and arguing with you is like arguing with a brick. I know the other political football team is proposing something, and so you are honor bound to hate it.

 

[Ns1]

"This is not a train to nowhere," said California High-Speed Rail Authority board member Dan Richards, a finance expert appointed to the rail agency's board this summer by Gov. Jerry Brown. "It will be a train to where trains are waiting. That is the new strategy."

The new plan projects the cost of a one-way fare from L.A. to San Francisco at between $52 and $123.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-1102-bullet-train-20111102,0,4160884.story

WTF? It's 40-60 bucks one way from BUR -> SJC, hop on the train from SJC to SF and it's 45-65 one way.

111 BUR -> SFO direct

 

[JS80]

I want HSR, but not @100BN, and definitely not with the beginning portions of track connecting BFE south with BFE north


BTW burbank airport kicks ass.

It's basically $3k per SF+LA resident. If you count just taxpayers, it's prob more like $10k+ per taxpayer. No thank you.