The liberals $43 billion train to no where...

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HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,646
0
71
Why the USA has not constructed a hsr network on the east and west coast linking major metropolitan areas together is a completely mistery to me

The loud morons in this thread are why the US hasn't stepped up to the plate yet. There was a light rail that was to run here in central texas back in Nov 2000, to be 100% federally funded. There were local attack ads everywhere that said "Costs too much, does too little". The driving campaign against it was that taxes would have to support it, even though the truth was the money was all coming from upstairs (federal). It failed by a less than two thousand votes on the ballot. The group that ran ads against the rail was a right wing group that was committed to stopping any kind of government spending.

We have lagged behind other countries because conservatives are truly anti-progressive. How can we move forward when there are people that treat the term "progressive" as derogatory?
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
81
Budget Airlines are cheaper unless you get a good discount ahead of time for the trains.

My brother is one of those Brussel-Paris business commuters. He has to go to Paris for meetings all the time. His company doesn't care about Ryanair or other loco. He gets on the train in the morning at 8 and at 9.30 he's in Paris for his meeting. Try to do that by car or by plane, it's simply not possible. All studies show that up to 1000 km a plane can simply not compete with hsr if you look at total travel time. It's also so much more comfortable. You have to show up 15 minutes in advance and you don't have these invasive security procedures.

It's funny, when you book a flight with Air-France from Brussel to Paris, you get in fact a Thalys (hsr) ticket in code sharing. You can even check your luggage in now at the Brussels hsr terminal if you are connecting through Charles-De-Gaulle because Air France has a check in counter!!! They drop you at Charles-De-Gaulle and off you go for your long distance flight

If France (and the rest of Europe) can build a frigging hsr network then the USA surely can
 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
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Working on a train is just easier, too. You can work on your laptop, read a book, whatever so much easier than sitting in some cramped and jittery airplane.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,407
8,595
126
Technical choices
French National Railways (SNCF) started airing the first defining concepts of high-speed railway in France in 1970 with a proposal to construct a new line between Paris and Lyon based on three principles: dedicated line for passenger traffic, compatibility with existing railway network, and high-frequency operations with short journey times. These choices proved to be right and made it possible to reduce the cost of constructing new lines, achieve high operating speeds of 240–270 km/h, optimize capacity of new TGV lines, reduce operating and maintenance costs of the new lines and rolling stock, and free-up freight capacities on existing conventional lines. All these factors contributed to traffic growth and to the increased profitability of the high-speed railways.
An especially unique feature of the French TGV is its relatively low construction costs. The first TGV Sud-Est cost just $4 million per km, the lowest figure worldwide (Table 1). More recent projects cost about $10 million per km and the newest TGV Méditerranée with seven long viaducts (17.155 km) and one long tunnel (12.768 km) still cost only $15 million per km.

why does cali's train cost so damn much?
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
If France (and the rest of Europe) can build a frigging hsr network then the USA surely can

We just don't have the will and, unfortunately, we won't until fuel prices climb even higher.

Take the Acela. It's capable of running at 140 mph, but can only run at about half that because of two restrictions. The first is that the federal government mandates that high speed trains cannot share a track with low speed trains and the second is that Connecticut does not allow the train to tilt (no joke).

Combine these restrictions with Amtrak's dismal record and it becomes obvious why most Americans are opposed to more rail projects. Amtrak needs to get itself together and the government needs to back off its insistence that Amtrak maintain unprofitable rail lines for the sake of it. Focus Amtrak on deploying true HSR and HSR that is focused on interconnecting cities.

The Acela would be even more popular if it could truly travel at 150 mph AND if it had fewer stops. If they could get the total trip time closer to 4 hours 30 min, that would be amazing.
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
81
We just don't have the will and, unfortunately, we won't until fuel prices climb even higher.

Take the Acela. It's capable of running at 140 mph, but can only run at about half that because of two restrictions. The first is that the federal government mandates that high speed trains cannot share a track with low speed trains and the second is that Connecticut does not allow the train to tilt (no joke).

Combine these restrictions with Amtrak's dismal record and it becomes obvious why most Americans are opposed to more rail projects. Amtrak needs to get itself together and the government needs to back off its insistence that Amtrak maintain unprofitable rail lines for the sake of it. Focus Amtrak on deploying true HSR and HSR that is focused on interconnecting cities.

The Acela would be even more popular if it could truly travel at 150 mph AND if it had fewer stops. If they could get the total trip time closer to 4 hours 30 min, that would be amazing.

I remember flying from Brussel to Boston through JFK. I would take the Acela in a heartbeat if it was a real hsr and not the neutered version
 

cirrrocco

Golden Member
Sep 7, 2004
1,952
78
91
Points to ponder

1. The money is to be spread out over 10 years, which is about 7 Billion a year
[Compare that to what we spend in Afghanistan, we spend the same amount in 2 weeks]
2. More inter city commerce
3. Many of my friends who come from europe and asia dont usually fly around the diff cities in Cali because of hugh air travel prices. They either stay in the beay area or just take a car and go to mendocino or somewhere nearby. Many of them students, dont even drive cars and are used to using trains in Europe. There are so many students who come every day t enjoy the beay area. This would induce them to go to SD and LA and spend money there

4. Reduce the number of fucking cars on the highways and near the airports
5. Hopefully reduce home prices. Many bay area companies pay travel costs for employees. so if a person can live in Sac or Fresno and then commute to work from there, that will reduce home prices in the bay area , LA, etc and also hopefully make central valley more progressive.
6. Bring fun into traveling. Enabling people to communicate with others in the dining car or even fellow passengers. That shit doesnt happen when you are in your car doing your own thing.

so dont even bring the financial aspects, if you want to rail against something, go protest in DC against the stupid fucking war which has fucked the US like nothing else. Shit.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Do the math...

$43,000,000,000 to build. How many people need to ride it just to pay construction costs?

BTW Amtrak lost $32 per passenger in 2008.

More great info...
"Last year, Amtrak's high-speed Acela Express train carried a record 593,000 passengers from Boston to New York" <--2008 data.

So traffic between the largest city and fifth largest city was only 593,000.

NY & Boston have a combined population of 29 million.

La + San Fran... 25 million...

So please explain to me how they expect to get millions of people on this freaking train?
Simple - they just subsidize the tickets. Basic government math.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
And BTW, he is a conservative. Just because someone is a bit less conservative than the "republicans" doesn't make him a liberal; he's far from it. But this is the USA, the place where libertarians are anarchists, conservatives are "republicans", and democrats are liberals. Leave it up to the US and its citizens to completely fuck up what words actually mean and to resort to using words like "liberal" as if they automatically had a negative connotation while not knowing WTH the word means and entails in the first place.

/rant
In the American political world he is NOT a conservative. It doesn't matter what he would be if he were in Europe since we don't like in Europe.

Furthermore, he is a very left wing liberal in American terms. Just go back and look at his campaign promises and the people who he appointed to various jobs and you see the track record of a very liberal politician.

Luckily for us on the right he is also a very incompetent politician who do not know how to lead otherwise he might actually get more of his agenda passed.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Exactly. We don't look at highways and try and determine how much "profit" we can make to make it worthwhile.
Highways actually make a profit for the federal government though.

We take in more in gas taxes than we spend on roads.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Points to ponder

1. The money is to be spread out over 10 years, which is about 7 Billion a year
[Compare that to what we spend in Afghanistan, we spend the same amount in 2 weeks]
2. More inter city commerce
3. Many of my friends who come from europe and asia dont usually fly around the diff cities in Cali because of hugh air travel prices. They either stay in the beay area or just take a car and go to mendocino or somewhere nearby. Many of them students, dont even drive cars and are used to using trains in Europe. There are so many students who come every day t enjoy the beay area. This would induce them to go to SD and LA and spend money there

4. Reduce the number of fucking cars on the highways and near the airports
5. Hopefully reduce home prices. Many bay area companies pay travel costs for employees. so if a person can live in Sac or Fresno and then commute to work from there, that will reduce home prices in the bay area , LA, etc and also hopefully make central valley more progressive.
6. Bring fun into traveling. Enabling people to communicate with others in the dining car or even fellow passengers. That shit doesnt happen when you are in your car doing your own thing.

so dont even bring the financial aspects, if you want to rail against something, go protest in DC against the stupid fucking war which has fucked the US like nothing else. Shit. .
No he can't do that, it was his party that got us bogged down in them
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,198
126
In the American political world he is NOT a conservative. It doesn't matter what he would be if he were in Europe since we don't like in Europe.

Furthermore, he is a very left wing liberal in American terms. Just go back and look at his campaign promises and the people who he appointed to various jobs and you see the track record of a very liberal politician.

Luckily for us on the right he is also a very incompetent politician who do not know how to lead otherwise he might actually get more of his agenda passed.

He's not left wing in American terms either. Most of the country wanted tax hikes on the wealthy as part of the deficit deal, he didn't push for those hard. His health care bill is borrowed from Republican Heritage Foundation's plan in the 90s, while Bush expanded single payer Medicare, a New Deal program. So in that sense, he's to the right of Bush on health care.
If GOP gets back in power, they are going to start spending like drunken sailors to prop up the economy to hold on to it in 2014. If you believe they all of the sudden got fiscally conservative for anything other than temporary political reasons, the joke is going to be on you.
 

Drako

Lifer
Jun 9, 2007
10,697
161
106
LOL, I can't believe anyone still actually thinks this thing will ever get built.

I moved to California in 1981, and there were big plans back then for this.

The thing is, it will never happen because local governments will never come together on were it should go. In the Bay Area, Palo Alto and San Mateo have already said they don't want it going through their cities.

King County surely doesn't want it, and are trying to delay approval of the environmental impact study for the first part of the project.

This thing is doomed :thumbsup:
 

LOL_Wut_Axel

Diamond Member
Mar 26, 2011
4,310
8
81
In any place where they know what the words actually mean he is a conservative.

Furthermore, he is a very left wing liberal in American terms. Just go back and look at his campaign promises and the people who he appointed to various jobs and you see the track record of a very liberal politician.

Luckily for us on the right he is also a very incompetent politician who do not know how to lead otherwise he might actually get more of his agenda passed.

Fixed that for you. Look at what the word actually means and how people like you have tried to bastardize it. He's not a liberal; not in the slightest sense. Even looking at American politics, he's not a liberal. Conservative does not mean liberal.

Do you want to refer to trucks as compact cars now?

You're such a moron; I don't even know where to start.
 

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,646
0
71
Highways actually make a profit for the federal government though.

We take in more in gas taxes than we spend on roads.

Source? My numbers show the federal gas tax raised $25B and the budget numbers for the DOT's Federal Highway Administration is $48.8B. Of that, $43.6B is specifically earmarked for "Federal Aid - Highways".
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Seems to work in Japan, why wouldn't it work here?
Because Japanese cities are insanely dense compared to American cities.

Tokyo has a density of 15,000 people per square mile.

LA is half of that at 7,500.

And let's not forget that Tokyo is the largest metro area in the whole world with a population great than California by itself. The Tokyo metro has almost 3 time as many people at the LA metro even though they both have about the same amount of area.

Trains need high density population to work. If the people are spread out too much then they fail.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
So you don't see any upside to it?
Sure I see some upside. Very few things are either all good or all bad. We would be employing skilled labor during a time when the private sector isn't building nearly as much as usual. We would be acquiring land which is probably not getting any cheaper, against the time when poverty or population density does force us out of our cars and on to trains. (Which will hopefully be maglev superconductor by then, but will still need land for at least two and preferably three tracks.) We would gain some valuable knowledge about what works and what doesn't in high speed light rail, before we launch into a full scale cross-country venture that will be budgeted at trillions. Not just motive technology, which will be vastly different by the time rail is really practical here, but things like security, crossing roads, siting concerns, grade and stability mediation.

As an engineer, I love high speed rail and its inherent efficiency, especially once we learn to efficiently recapture and store braking energy. It's also somewhat less susceptible than are planes to terrorism and other catastrophic failure. Were we fiscally solvent, I think this would be a good stimulus project, priming the pump. But at the moment, our greatest problem is our crushing debt, and creating yet another hungry mouth just makes that worse. We need to choose our projects very, very carefully, getting at least two needed returns on our investment. An example would be replacing or renovating existing inefficient government buildings with more energy efficient technologies - same stimulus effect, but combined with an immediate return of lower energy consumption and operating costs as well as a building whose life should be much longer. This thing is going to eat and continue eating for little practical benefit in the foreseeable future; it's exactly the kind of project we don't need right now.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,198
126
If rightwing states keep turning down high speed rail cash, there may be enough Federal money coming in to CA to pay for the whole thing :)
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,198
126
Because Japanese cities are insanely dense compared to American cities.

Tokyo has a density of 15,000 people per square mile.

LA is half of that at 7,500.

And let's not forget that Tokyo is the largest metro area in the whole world with a population great than California by itself. The Tokyo metro has almost 3 time as many people at the LA metro even though they both have about the same amount of area.

Trains need high density population to work. If the people are spread out too much then they fail.

californiaethnicprojection.jpg
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Sure I see some upside. Very few things are either all good or all bad. We would be employing skilled labor during a time when the private sector isn't building nearly as much as usual. We would be acquiring land which is probably not getting any cheaper, against the time when poverty or population density does force us out of our cars and on to trains. (Which will hopefully be maglev superconductor by then, but will still need land for at least two and preferably three tracks.) We would gain some valuable knowledge about what works and what doesn't in high speed light rail, before we launch into a full scale cross-country venture that will be budgeted at trillions. Not just motive technology, which will be vastly different by the time rail is really practical here, but things like security, crossing roads, siting concerns, grade and stability mediation.

As an engineer, I love high speed rail and its inherent efficiency, especially once we learn to efficiently recapture and store braking energy. It's also somewhat less susceptible than are planes to terrorism and other catastrophic failure. Were we fiscally solvent, I think this would be a good stimulus project, priming the pump. But at the moment, our greatest problem is our crushing debt, and creating yet another hungry mouth just makes that worse. We need to choose our projects very, very carefully, getting at least two needed returns on our investment. An example would be replacing or renovating existing inefficient government buildings with more energy efficient technologies - same stimulus effect, but combined with an immediate return of lower energy consumption and operating costs as well as a building whose life should be much longer. This thing is going to eat and continue eating for little practical benefit in the foreseeable future; it's exactly the kind of project we don't need right now.

I disagree, I think now is the time for a project like this, it'll be a great shot in the arm to CA's economy and could get the ball rolling to helping it out of it's economic duldrums plus all the other benefits such as reduced traffic, a boost in inter state tourism, a reduced cost of doing business for companies in addition with making CA smaller thus enabling workers to live outside of the economic zones where the cost of living is much higher.
 

rpanic

Golden Member
Dec 1, 2006
1,896
7
81
FYI Amtrak had 28 million passengers in 2008 and that is for the WHOLE country!!!!

Some how this LA to San Fran train will have double that many riders????

Amtrak is to slow thats its problem, I can drive to Oakland station from LA union station 2-3hrs faster than the slow train.

They just need to build it without milking it.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Here are some facts about the LA metro system.
http://www.metro.net/news/pages/facts-glance/

Only 10&#37; of its operating budget comes from fares, the rest is from taxes and other outside sources. (that includes trains and bas fare, but the cost just to operate the trans is as much as the total fares brought in system wide)

They do have 90 million boardings a year, which is a good number. It is the 9th most used system in the country. Which makes you wonder... 2nd biggest city, 9th biggest ridership... :hmm:

140,000 people use the system on an average weekday.

Here is the fun part though...
The red line is 17 miles long and cost $4.5 billion to build. That is $264 million per mile!

It does have 47 million boardings per year though. So it only cost $95 per rider to build. At $1 a rider it will pay for itself in 95 years.

I would say a system like this might actually make sense since it has enough riders per day to justify itself.

But a system that will cost 10 times as much and have half as many riders... :hmm: