The liberals $43 billion train to no where...

[randomrogue]

When I did business trips to LA I would have to get up at 4am to catch my flight and generally speaking I'd have to book a hotel since I'd be too exausted to get all my work done and catch a flight back the same day.

If the train has a decent schedule and runs quickly then it might work. I however really do think that they need to worry much more about fixing the overall transit system in both LA and the bay area because getting me from point A to point B is much more than just getting me to the city. If I still have to drive for an hour after my train ride then suddenly it's not very convenient.

They've done a good job with downtown LA but what if my business needs me in Long Beach or Glendale? They need to fix that far more than they need the train. If anyone has driven the 405 to 10 interchange lately they know what I mean and the downtown one is much worse (that 60, 101, 5, 10 crap). It's a nightmare. Same thing with the 101 up north when I have to go to Marin or Sonoma. The Berkley one is better but still terrible (80, 580 and whatever else they have there). The transit infrastructure is 100 years behind what it should be rather than being 50 ahead.

 

[Red Dawn]

Just imagine how much less the unemployment numbers would be if there weren't so many illegals working in Texas or California.

Well if you can convince Gex X to work in the fields and actually sweat.

 

[randomrogue]

GenX is 35+ years old now. It's probably time for you to move on to the next generation. The pokemon one or whatever.

 

[Red Dawn]

So for the few people who will ride the train the govt should spend billions so they wont have to ride in gridlock and give business an expense break? Makes logical sense. I enjoy it when big govt liberals are advocating govt projects to save evil corporations money

Seems to work in Japan, why wouldn't it work here?

 

[Red Dawn]

GenX is 35+ years old now. It's probably time for you to move on to the next generation. The pokemon one or whatever.

Generation Whine.

 

[randomrogue]

Y is up to 2000 although that seems kinda long. What's the newest one?

 

[Zargon]

Y is up to 2000 although that seems kinda long. What's the newest one?

generation entitlement?

 

[HendrixFan]

You think they will pay the true cost of their ride? Look at any of the mass transit train systems in the country to get your answer.

Gas taxes and license fees pay the true cost of roads? I think not. Where do you think the difference goes?

The point is that the rail system is infrastructure, which is a good thing to spend money on in general. It is even better to spend money on it during a bad economy. You don't look at infrastructure costs as whether or not it tries to make a direct profit, as that isn't the point.

Aside from the $43B plus worth of jobs it creates in its construction, it will have ongoing jobs provided in its usage. The area will see a benefit from increased travel, as the ability to move around is huge for a good economy. One of the silent drawbacks of the housing collapse is the inability of people to sell their house in order to accept a more lucrative job offer elsewhere. A moving workforce is a good thing.

 

[Red Dawn]

Gas taxes and license fees pay the true cost of roads? I think not. Where do you think the difference goes?

The point is that the rail system is infrastructure, which is a good thing to spend money on in general. It is even better to spend money on it during a bad economy. You don't look at infrastructure costs as whether or not it tries to make a direct profit, as that isn't the point.

Aside from the $43B plus worth of jobs it creates in its construction, it will have ongoing jobs provided in its usage. The area will see a benefit from increased travel, as the ability to move around is huge for a good economy. One of the silent drawbacks of the housing collapse is the inability of people to sell their house in order to accept a more lucrative job offer elsewhere. A moving workforce is a good thing.

Well if there's one thing you can't accuse the Republicans of it's having foresight

 

[randomrogue]

I believe that same argument has been made when they built airports for 100 people and bridges to islands where 100 people lived for loads of money too.

Anyone who has played with Legos can tell you that you need your transportation system to make sense.

 

[Genx87]

Seems to work in Japan, why wouldn't it work here?

I'd think for starters Japan has a much higher population density.

 

[Genx87]

Gas taxes and license fees pay the true cost of roads? I think not. Where do you think the difference goes?

Siphoned off for pet projects.

The point is that the rail system is infrastructure, which is a good thing to spend money on in general. It is even better to spend money on it during a bad economy. You don't look at infrastructure costs as whether or not it tries to make a direct profit, as that isn't the point.

Not all infrastructure is equal. This is clearly not worth the money.

Aside from the $43B plus worth of jobs it creates in its construction, it will have ongoing jobs provided in its usage. The area will see a benefit from increased travel, as the ability to move around is huge for a good economy. One of the silent drawbacks of the housing collapse is the inability of people to sell their house in order to accept a more lucrative job offer elsewhere. A moving workforce is a good thing.

You ever heard of lost opportunity cost? The ongoing jobs created by this will have to be funded by increased burden on the california budget.

 

[theeedude]

France had similar population density to CA when it started building the TGV.
Plus it's going to put central valley on the map. Not sure if it's a good thing

 

[Red Dawn]

I'd think for starters Japan has a much higher population density.

Well if commuting form Central CA to either the Bay Area or SoCal was a lot easier, less time consuming and less expensive a lot of those communties would grow exponentially. In the end the $43 billion woold be a great investment and great for CA's economy which would bring in a lot more revenue for the country.

 

[Genx87]

Well if there's one thing you can't accuse the Republicans of it's having foresight

Hey, I have been pushing telecommuting for years to ease the burden of congestion on our infrastructure. That is a true 21st century advancement. Not trying to refine 19th century technology that is expensive as hell to fill a market that isnt there to fix our problems.

 

[HendrixFan]

Siphoned off for pet projects.

Corruption is real, and I'm sure the rich are getting richer somewhere off of this deal. The debate in this thread hasn't been corruption though, it has been whether or not this is a worthwhile project.

Not all infrastructure is equal. This is clearly not worth the money.

A sound argument. So sound, in fact, that I don't have a response.

You ever heard of lost opportunity cost? The ongoing jobs created by this will have to be funded by increased burden on the california budget.

I didn't see anywhere in the Fox News article whether or not the jobs will be public or private. On the Cal. High Speed Rail Authority site it doesn't clarify, but hints that they will be public jobs running the system. It does state that it expects half a million new jobs statewide in support of the rail system. I'm pretty sure that will cover the "thousands" of jobs it expects to be directly involved in the rail system.

 

[theeedude]

Hey, I have been pushing telecommuting for years to ease the burden of congestion on our infrastructure. That is a true 21st century advancement. Not trying to refine 19th century technology that is expensive as hell to fill a market that isnt there to fix our problems.

Roads are 3000 BC technology, so by that logic, we are better off building high speed rail than more roads.

 

[Genx87]

Corruption is real, and I'm sure the rich are getting richer somewhere off of this deal. The debate in this thread hasn't been corruption though, it has been whether or not this is a worthwhile project.

That wasnt my point. Gasoline taxes, have historically been raided by other functions of govt. You were asking about gasoline taxes.

A sound argument. So sound, in fact, that I don't have a response.

What else is there to say? A project that will cost this many billions and transport a few million a year is not worth it.

I didn't see anywhere in the Fox News article whether or not the jobs will be public or private. On the Cal. High Speed Rail Authority site it doesn't clarify, but hints that they will be public jobs running the system. It does state that it expects half a million new jobs statewide in support of the rail system. I'm pretty sure that will cover the "thousands" of jobs it expects to be directly involved in the rail system.

You are acting as though the 48 billion and counting spent and subsequent money to keep it running will magically appear out of air. On the state level it will have to be borrowed or taxed. That money is taken out of the economy to spend on this is a lost opportunity cost. It isnt a true benefit at all. The money spent on this could have been spent on anything in the private sector which will see real and sustained growth. That is my point to yours about the economic benefit. It is the same issue that surrounds public financed stadiums for sports teams. The lost opportunity cost from increased taxation outweighs the economic benefit of the team and surrounding business.

 

[Genx87]

Roads are 3000 BC technology, so by that logic, we are better off building high speed rail than more roads.

What part of advocating the use of telecommuting didnt you understand?

 

[RabidMongoose]

I can't wait for this system to be built. It would be really nice to take the train around the state of California. I took a high speed train in China (luckily it didn't crash and kill me) and it was so nice and convenient to travel on it.

 

[theeedude]

What part of advocating the use of telecommuting didnt you understand?

Where is the fiscal stimulus in that?
I could see building tonnes of solar farms instead of high speed rail, but we already have telecommuting.

 

[HendrixFan]

That wasnt my point. Gasoline taxes, have historically been raided by other functions of govt. You were asking about gasoline taxes.

You were the one who brought up gas taxes in defense of building roads....????

What else is there to say? A project that will cost this many billions and transport a few million a year is not worth it.

Millions of people per year for the next century. All while spurring the creation of half a million private industry jobs in support. What were you looking for?

You are acting as though the 48 billion and counting spent and subsequent money to keep it running will magically appear out of air. On the state level it will have to be borrowed or taxed. That money is taken out of the economy to spend on this is a lost opportunity cost. It isnt a true benefit at all. The money spent on this could have been spent on anything in the private sector which will see real and sustained growth. That is my point to yours about the economic benefit. It is the same issue that surrounds public financed stadiums for sports teams. The lost opportunity cost from increased taxation outweighs the economic benefit of the team and surrounding business.

Two differences between this and stadiums. First, stadiums and teams have the proven ability and money to finance their own creation. Second, stadiums are hardly infrastructure. They do produce some jobs, although it is more the team that spurs economic activity. But spurring economic activity isn't infrastructure at all.

The money that is "taken out of the economy" isn't a lost opportunity cost. I suppose you have been sleeping for the last few years, because business is sitting on hordes of cash right now. They aren't pumping their money into new initiatives. Why do you think we are struggling right now? There is no investment. When the private market fails to create jobs, as is the case now, that is when the government should step in and do so. Why do you think I already mentioned that in this bad economy, now is the perfect time to do a project like this?

 

[freegeeks]

Only liberals would think spending dozens of billions of dollars on technology of the 1800's would solve problems in 2011.

LOL, hsr in Europe has been such a success that airlines don't even try to compete anymore on distances up to 1000 km. Everyone that has taken a TGV, Thalys or other high speed train knows that by every possible metric (comfort, convenience, speed, ...) , the hsr rules all other forms of transportation. Flying cattle class is not even 1800 but prehistoric compared to the comfort of hsr.

Why the USA has not constructed a hsr network on the east and west coast linking major metropolitan areas together is a completely mistery to me

here in Belgium we have a new generation of daily commuters between Brussels and Paris using the Thalys (a 650 km round trip), perfectly possible with the Thalys. Most days, I spend more time in my car doing my 75 km commute then some guys commuting to Paris!!!

 

[randomrogue]

LOL, hsr in Europe has been such a success that airlines don't even try to compete anymore on distances up to 1000 km. Everyone that has taken a TGV, Thalys or other high speed train knows that by every possible metric (comfort, convenience, speed, ...) , the hsr rules all other forms of transportation. Flying cattle class is not even 1800 but prehistoric compared to the comfort of hsr.

Why the USA has not constructed a hsr network on the east and west coast linking major metropolitan areas together is a completely mistery to me

Budget Airlines are cheaper unless you get a good discount ahead of time for the trains.

 

[Red Dawn]

LOL, hsr in Europe has been such a success that airlines don't even try to compete anymore on distances up to 1000 km. Everyone that has taken a TGV, Thalys or other high speed train knows that by every possible metric (comfort, convenience, speed, ...) , the hsr rules all other forms of transportation. Flying cattle class is not even 1800 but prehistoric compared to the comfort of hsr.

Why the USA has not constructed a hsr network on the east and west coast linking major metropolitan areas together is a completely mistery to me

Because of the Party of No which is full of Neanderthals like Feed Me Now