The liberals $43 billion train to no where...

[Ns1]

Voters of CA decided the best thing was HSR.

What we voted for is not what we are getting.

 

[K1052]

edit2: I am also fairly entertained at the deference everyone seems to have towards the idea that building or expanding airports is impossible. $40billion can make a lot of things happen, even if a wildlife preserve is in the way

You'd probably need an act of Congress if protected lands are in the way just to start talking about it. NYC is in the same boat with JFK.

The amount of local opposition in the bay area would also be unbelievable.

 

[werepossum]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_aircraft#Regional

Trains are just better. Plus you can do solar for the electricity.

Build the world's longest shed, hang the power rails, cover it with solar panels, and fill the canopy with monitoring and voltage regulation equipment. It'll be a cool way to travel across the desert.

Cool article, Knowing, thanks.

The blended segment from San Jose to SF that will be shared with Caltrain includes long passing tracks to be added at various points in the corridor and the implementation of a Positive Train Control system. Also HSR will most likely be operating at 110mph between the two and spend some of that time slowing down/accelerating for the intermediate stations.

Caltrain has a 100ish page study of blended operations posted on their website if you want to read it.

I certainly don't want to read it, but I'm glad it's been thought out. Resources always need to be maximized.

You'd probably need an act of Congress if protected lands are in the way just to start talking about it. NYC is in the same boat with JFK.

The amount of local opposition in the bay area would also be unbelievable.

Nope, just call Harry Reid, slip him a couple million, and the protected lands magically disappear to reappear in some convenient location.

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

There's a pretty huge difference between not spending money, spending money efficiently, and spending money inefficiently

...or spending it effectively?

Efficiency is mpt the be all end all of everything.

 

[Screech]

...or spending it effectively?

Efficiency is mpt the be all end all of everything.

Right, but I was only making that point in relation to the argument that the train is a good idea because we are at less than full employment and so we should spend money to employ more people instead of having people sitting around on welfare. Obviously how to spend money etc etc is a complex set of issues, I was simply trying to point out that if we want to use government funds to employ people to build stuff to keep them off welfare, spending $1 million per person per year (or whatever absurd cost it comes out to) to employ people probably isn't the most efficient way to do it.

 

[marincounty]

So to summarize:

US spends 50% more than Europe on healthcare: OMG we waste so much money we need to be more like the Europeans!

US spends 50% more then Europe on trains: Stop complaining, things just cost more in the US.

As I said, make up your minds.

Where did you get your numbers? Maybe the track costs 50% more in the US, bet I would bet Europe spends far more than the US on trains.
Like you said, we don't care what Europe does, but when they can do something better and cheaper than us, it's worth taking a look at.

 

[fskimospy]

So then why do people bitch about our healthcare? Everything is more expensive here.

Make up your damn minds.

That is a terrible argument. Comparing costs in a developing nation to the U.S. is ridiculous, and using fixed dollar amounts is an invalid basis for comparison.

Also, when people talk about expense of health care they use percentage of GDP, not dollar amounts.

 

[BoberFett]

That is a terrible argument. Comparing costs in a developing nation to the U.S. is ridiculous, and using fixed dollar amounts is an invalid basis for comparison.

Also, when people talk about expense of health care they use percentage of GDP, not dollar amounts.

It matters when your proposal is a ridiculous $131M/mile.

 

[fskimospy]

It matters when your proposal is a ridiculous $131M/mile.

If you want to say the cost of the train is too high that's fine, but using China as a basis for comparison is a bad idea, and complaining that people are being inconsistent using the metrics you did isn't right.

 

[redgtxdi]

In case anything below isn't anything already said....... this is a boondoggle (aka "Browndoggle") and everybody in the world knows it. I don't think anybody in California can even remember how this thing got voted in. I preached to shoot this thing down from the highest mountain top but somehow it went thru anyway.

For anybody not in California, the real problem is twofold:

#1.) Folks like Southwest Airlines do this trip all too efficiently already anyway. Nobody really wants or needs a train like this.

#2.) It won't be a bullet train AT ALL!! At best it will get you there more quickly than if you took the Amtrak up the coast which would be a MUCH more desirable trip anyway. Too many junctions with low speed rail to even call it truly "high speed" except where it might get up over 60mph.

100% Browndoggle

 

[fskimospy]

In case anything below isn't anything already said....... this is a boondoggle (aka "Browndoggle") and everybody in the world knows it. I don't think anybody in California can even remember how this thing got voted in. I preached to shoot this thing down from the highest mountain top but somehow it went thru anyway.

For anybody not in California, the real problem is twofold:

#1.) Folks like Southwest Airlines do this trip all too efficiently already anyway. Nobody really wants or needs a train like this.

#2.) It won't be a bullet train AT ALL!! At best it will get you there more quickly than if you took the Amtrak up the coast which would be a MUCH more desirable trip anyway. Too many junctions with low speed rail to even call it truly "high speed" except where it might get up over 60mph.

100% Browndoggle

Browndoggle? Funding for it was approved in 2008. I remember it quite well.

Also, why are you so mad at such a successful governor?

 

[theeedude]

Republicans have literally nothing to offer America.
High speed rail? The richest state in the richest country in the world can't afford it. Never mind that war devastated Japan could afford it 50 years ago. We just can't do anything anymore if you listen to Republicans.

 

[fskimospy]

Republicans have literally nothing to offer America.
High speed rail? The richest state in the richest country in the world can't afford it. Never mind that war devastated Japan could afford it 50 years ago. We just can't do anything anymore if you listen to Republicans.

It's a very interesting set of ideas.

America is the best at everything.

Unless it involves government.

But America has the best type of government in the world.

You would think that at a minimum their contempt for our ability to govern ourselves would indicate that we have a crappy form of government or something. Instead it basically boils down to "BUT BUT LIBRULS"

 

[theeedude]

In Republican mind, America is number one, but can't build anything, can't do anything, can't even give it's own people medical care, can't educate them, doesn't have money for roads. But it's #1, and has a foam finger to prove it.

 

[K1052]

In case anything below isn't anything already said....... this is a boondoggle (aka "Browndoggle") and everybody in the world knows it. I don't think anybody in California can even remember how this thing got voted in. I preached to shoot this thing down from the highest mountain top but somehow it went thru anyway.

For anybody not in California, the real problem is twofold:

#1.) Folks like Southwest Airlines do this trip all too efficiently already anyway. Nobody really wants or needs a train like this.

#2.) It won't be a bullet train AT ALL!! At best it will get you there more quickly than if you took the Amtrak up the coast which would be a MUCH more desirable trip anyway. Too many junctions with low speed rail to even call it truly "high speed" except where it might get up over 60mph.

100% Browndoggle

I fly SFO-LAX fairly regularly. If there was HSR between SF and LA I would never get on a plane again to make the trip. Everybody I know out here who does the same route says the same. No weather delays, waiting on equipment, TSA, getting out to the airport and back, etc.

The system will be high speed . They have to run blended with Caltrian from SF-SJ but that just means 110mph operation through the peninsula where there will be intermediate stops anyway spaced more closely than elsewhere in the system so it's kind of moot that it can't hit 200mph+ there.

 

[michal1980]

I fly SFO-LAX fairly regularly. If there was HSR between SF and LA I would never get on a plane again to make the trip. Everybody I know out here who does the same route says the same. No weather delays, waiting on equipment, TSA, getting out to the airport and back, etc.

The system will be high speed . They have to run blended with Caltrian from SF-SJ but that just means 110mph operation through the peninsula where there will be intermediate stops anyway spaced more closely than elsewhere in the system so it's kind of moot that it can't hit 200mph+ there.

so its not even high speed anymore.

More liberal lies.

 

[theeedude]

so its not even high speed anymore.

More liberal lies.

You really need to travel and see how high speed rail works in the rest of the world.
More conservative ignorance.
Good thing California has thrown Republicans out comprehensively, but you guys are free to "save" money by starving your own states of infrastructure.

 

[K1052]

so its not even high speed anymore.

More liberal lies.

IIRC, the time penalty to reduced operation speed in the blended segment is about 5-7 minutes. Saves MANY billions of dollars in cost and years of legal wrangling by avoiding ramming a brand new ROW through some of the most expensive real estate/rich people/cranky old nutbags in the country.

Since it seems you fall into the last category I would think that you'd be pleased.

 

[theeedude]

It's also great for people who live in San Jose, Palo Alto, etc, where the train will stop, along with travelers out of SFO. It will save them time, since they can just get on board where they live. It will also spread the load on the stations. Plus additional revenue from local riders, many of whom will get their fares covered by employers.

 

[Greenman]

Republicans have literally nothing to offer America.
High speed rail? The richest state in the richest country in the world can't afford it. Never mind that war devastated Japan could afford it 50 years ago. We just can't do anything anymore if you listen to Republicans.

It all depends on how much money you're willing to borrow, print, or confiscate. California can't print money, so to build and run the HSR, we either have to borrow the money, or take it from the general population. Right now, the state has 26 billion of the 68 billion construction cost. No one knows where the rest is coming from. I assume it will be bonds or taxes. Since the system will never operate anywhere near the break even point, the portion of the cost and operating expenses not covered by fares will have to be made up by the taxpayers. So the question is, how much do the people that have to pay for it want to spend every year just to look cool?

 

[theeedude]

It all depends on how much money you're willing to borrow, print, or confiscate. California can't print money, so to build and run the HSR, we either have to borrow the money, or take it from the general population. Right now, the state has 26 billion of the 68 billion construction cost. No one knows where the rest is coming from. I assume it will be bonds or taxes. Since the system will never operate anywhere near the break even point, the portion of the cost and operating expenses not covered by fares will have to be made up by the taxpayers. So the question is, how much do the people that have to pay for it want to spend every year just to look cool?

How much did US "borrow, print, or confiscate" to pay for Alaska, Interstate Highways, TVA dams, etc, so on? How much did the Dutch "borrow, print, or confiscate" to pay for their levees? How much did China "borrow, print, or confiscate" to build their high speed rail? No one cares, anymore than they care about how many shovels were used. The point is they got it done. Money was just a tool to get it done, and it took as much as it took, but now they have the infrastructure to show for it.

 

[Darwin333]

Hi, you must be retarded.

Not even close to the same thing. Blowing up a portion of a highway and guess what, you have disrupted traffic.

Blow a portion of a 220mph passenger train track carrying 100? 1,000? people, and guess what, you have a massacre.

How about blowing up a bridge during rush hour and standstill traffic that you can easily cause by intentionally causing a huge traffic accident on the other side of it? Double points if you have an asshole partner who does the same on the other direction of travel.

Anywhere you have a bunch of people is a potentially "big" terrorist target. Frankly, blowing up a couple of malls in the same day (similar to 9/11) would do far more damage to the nation than taking out a single train and other than finding the idiots to do it would probably be much easier.

Its not hard to make things go bang and put a bunch of ball bearings or nails around said bang to maximize casualties. Do that in a couple of places and you have mass panic ala 9/11, blow up one train and you get a tragedy and a bunch of pissed off commuters but nationwide it would likely be viewed as a "California problem".

Regardless, anyone that uses the "but but but teh TERRORISTS might blow it up" argument to not do, or TO build, something here in the US is a fucking coward. Fuck the terrorists, fuck being scared of something that is less likely to kill me than my fucking bathtub and fuck those that support or further their agenda. You are coming very close to the later.

 

[brycejones]

IIRC, the time penalty to reduced operation speed in the blended segment is about 5-7 minutes. Saves MANY billions of dollars in cost and years of legal wrangling by avoiding ramming a brand new ROW through some of the most expensive real estate/rich people/cranky old nutbags in the country.

Since it seems you fall into the last category I would think that you'd be pleased.

Nope he just has to whine. I've come to the conclusion his issue is that he flunked out of community college and is stuck living with his mom.

 

[Darwin333]

Before you celebrate agriculture MAYBE leaving California, it's a $50B/year industry here, in a $2000 Billion/year economy.

Looks to me like the ag business leaving due to drought conditions would solve the water problem for the rest of Cali. $50B isn't chump change but frankly in a water crisis they'd be the ones I would be trying to price out of town.

 

[Greenman]

How much did US "borrow, print, or confiscate" to pay for Alaska, Interstate Highways, TVA dams, etc, so on? How much did the Dutch "borrow, print, or confiscate" to pay for their levees? How much did China "borrow, print, or confiscate" to build their high speed rail? No one cares, anymore than they care about how many shovels were used. The point is they got it done. Money was just a tool to get it done, and it took as much as it took, but now they have the infrastructure to show for it.

So you'd be willing to pay $1000 a year more in taxes to help pay for the system?