The Katrina myths thread

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Toggle sidebar Toggle sidebar
TastesLikeChicken

TastesLikeChicken

Lifer
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: TRUMPHENT
That bus numbers is issue is amazing. How can 200 turn into 2000? I never counted the buses in the now infamous photo of the school bus motor pool but, there most assuredly were not 2000. You would think that the number 2000 would have been suspect.
Click to expand...
The question can also be - How did 324 turn into 200? ;) And total school and public buses are claimed to be @ 700.

As I said already, both sides have been overstating and understating the bus issue.

 
M

mismajor99

Member
Apr 21, 2004
105
0
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: mismajor99
Great Thread.

Another myth is the "2000" Bus scenario in which the mayor never utilized all those buses. Although there were hundereds of them, it surely wasn't "2000" as said on FOX news.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200509120005

(Sorry about the left leaning site. I believe they do a good job most of the time reporting the facts, there are also many other reports on this, just go over to google news.)

Also on Global Warming:
Although I am skeptical about the global warming issue. We, as the people, get information from both sides that have obvious poilitical reasons. The one thing I am willing to say is that global warming is occuring at least according to the majoirty of scientists in the world. But, The question of concern is whether or not we have any input as human beings in this process of global warming. Big Oil/Energy is obviously against the idea that we are causing global warming while environmentalist feel the opposite. That being said, I guess I am a bit biased in this discussion because I trust the environmentalist more than I do Big Oil/Energy. That's my logic on it. Not trying to start a flame war, but that is how I come to my half-ass conclusion :)
Click to expand...
Added, even with the left-leaning link. ;)

To be fair about the buses, both sides have made overstatements, and understatements about them -- The right concerning the number available, and the left using the strawman that it would have been imposible to evacuate "100,000" people with those buses. That figure is pretty shaky. NOLA should have first used the buses to evacuate those with special needs and who didn't have tranportation of their own with which to leave. Those people should have been a priority. The fact that they didn't use the buses for that purpose is pretty sad. Additionally, out of the "100,000," how many would have voluntarily left, regardless of the mandatory evacuation order? After 2 weeks they're still having trouble getting people to leave their homes, even in the squalid conditions. I'm not sure the number that would have been evacuated would have been anywhere near 100,000.

And I don't think there's any argument that the local government could have done more and better than what they did, and they had the tools available to do it with as well.
Click to expand...

I totally agree.
 
M

mismajor99

Member
Apr 21, 2004
105
0
0
Originally posted by: TRUMPHENT
That bus numbers issue is amazing. How can 200 turn into 2000? I never counted the buses in the now infamous photo of the school bus motor pool but, there most assuredly were not 2000. You would think that the number 2000 would have been suspect.
Click to expand...


I can't believe Hannity/FOX had that one wrong(Well actually I can :). If he would have just stated the correct amount, he could have at least made a sound argument as to why they weren't being used. With a mistake like that, It's obvious he was trying to make it worse than it was.

DEBUNKED!!!! :)
 
M

mismajor99

Member
Apr 21, 2004
105
0
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: mismajor99
Also, here is a site specifically that looks at right wing myths. This a a great list.

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/09/13/katrina-myths-debunked/
Click to expand...

Some of those issues are already dealt with in this thread. Some of the others seem a bit on the biased side and don't tell the entire truth as well.
Click to expand...


Sorry I didn't know they were already discussed. I looked for a right wing page on the same issues but could not find one. :)
 
T

TRUMPHENT

Golden Member
Jan 20, 2001
1,414
0
0
reply to TLC
Out of a total of 324 school buses, 70 were inoperative. That leaves 254 serviceable buses. I think that infamous photo had 200 buses in it. That wouldn't qualify for a wild underexageration such as turning 200 into 2000.

Take the sum total of school and city buses, apply the same ratio of unserviceable school buses to the city buses.

You remind me of the drowning man grasping at straws.
 
TastesLikeChicken

TastesLikeChicken

Lifer
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: TRUMPHENT
reply to TLC
Out of a total of 324 school buses, 70 were inoperative. That leaves 254 serviceable buses. I think that infamous photo had 200 buses in it. That wouldn't qualify for a wild underexageration such as turning 200 into 2000.

Take the sum total of school and city buses, apply the same ratio of unserviceable school buses to the city buses.

You remind me of the drowning man grasping at straws.
Click to expand...
Notice the date on the article claiming those numbers (09/05/2003). I highly doubt 70 buses were left inoperative for almost two years, or that no new buses had been added to the fleet in that time. And even considering those numbers, 254 is considerably more than 200.

But truthfully, none of that even matters since 0 of those buses were used at all.

 
TastesLikeChicken

TastesLikeChicken

Lifer
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
E

ExpertNovice

Senior member
Mar 4, 2005
939
0
0
TastesLikeChicken,

I have not felt like searching for the answer as to whether the following questions are true or not. Personally, unless someone is trying to blame someone for this disaster, I don't care what did happen. Only that people are helped and that we learn from our mistakes.

One of the problems is that we are trying to ask if we had done this would it have helped. Hindsight is not always 100%.


The question(s):
Have environmental groups prevented federal groups from attempting to protect New Orleans.

Specifically. 1977: Save Our Wetlands: (note that it was in May of 1977 that President Carter created new law by signing the "Protection of Wetlands" Exectutive Order into effect. Of course this bypassed Congressional law makers.

Rebuttal
"The foregoing opinion should in no way be construed as precluding the Lake Pontchartrain project as proposed or reflecting on its advisability in any manner. The Court?s opinion is limited strictly to the finding that the environmental impact statement of August, 1974 for this project was legally inadequate. Upon proper compliance with the law with regard to the impact statement this injunction will be dissolved and any hurricane plan thus properly presented will be allowed to proceed".
Click to expand...

This would have, at the very least, stopped any work or plans and would have called for a new study. Thus, it didn't actually prevent any work but given the nature of later lawsuits it might have. The reason is that regardless of what study was done some environmental group would take them to court delaying any efforts, wasting time and effort, and costing more money with no benefit.

Another part of the "defense" was that the improvements wouldn't have helped and would not have been completed until 1996. This is sort of like the reason not to build a "Star Wars" program where the argument is "sure, we could stop 1000 missles but 10 could get through so why bother." The improvements may or may not have prevented the accident. What we do know is that what was done didn't help.

In cases like this it is probably best to save the money and use it to clean up the mess later.

 
TastesLikeChicken

TastesLikeChicken

Lifer
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: ExpertNovice
TastesLikeChicken,

I have not felt like searching for the answer as to whether the following questions are true or not. Personally, unless someone is trying to blame someone for this disaster, I don't care what did happen. Only that people are helped and that we learn from our mistakes.

One of the problems is that we are trying to ask if we had done this would it have helped. Hindsight is not always 100%.


The question(s):
Have environmental groups prevented federal groups from attempting to protect New Orleans.

Specifically. 1977: Save Our Wetlands: (note that it was in May of 1977 that President Carter created new law by signing the "Protection of Wetlands" Exectutive Order into effect. Of course this bypassed Congressional law makers.

Rebuttal
"The foregoing opinion should in no way be construed as precluding the Lake Pontchartrain project as proposed or reflecting on its advisability in any manner. The Court?s opinion is limited strictly to the finding that the environmental impact statement of August, 1974 for this project was legally inadequate. Upon proper compliance with the law with regard to the impact statement this injunction will be dissolved and any hurricane plan thus properly presented will be allowed to proceed".
Click to expand...

This would have, at the very least, stopped any work or plans and would have called for a new study. Thus, it didn't actually prevent any work but given the nature of later lawsuits it might have. The reason is that regardless of what study was done some environmental group would take them to court delaying any efforts, wasting time and effort, and costing more money with no benefit.

Another part of the "defense" was that the improvements wouldn't have helped and would not have been completed until 1996. This is sort of like the reason not to build a "Star Wars" program where the argument is "sure, we could stop 1000 missles but 10 could get through so why bother." The improvements may or may not have prevented the accident. What we do know is that what was done didn't help.

In cases like this it is probably best to save the money and use it to clean up the mess later.
Click to expand...
For something this far back in the past it's difficult to say. Pointing fingers at the decisions of long ago can tend to lead down a slippery slope as well. I mean, if you start down that road of historical what ifs, at what time in the past do you stop assessing blame?
 
M

mikeford

Diamond Member
Jan 27, 2001
5,671
160
106
Wanna bet the cops ate the sausage?

BTW this is exactly the type of story that bothers me, its a "part" of a story. Any fool knows that arresting some 70 year old lady for looting a sausage guilty or not is wrong, and not just wrong, but stupid and 100% certain to get the cops and judge into LOTS of problems. So why would they do it?
 
R

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
TLC.....this was/is a great idea for a thread. Good job being objective and adding myths perpetuated by both sides. And I agree with you on the bus issue. Both have blown that one way out of the water....no pun intended.
 
M

mikeford

Diamond Member
Jan 27, 2001
5,671
160
106
That 7,600 prisoners were moved, doesn't mean that other smaller perhaps facilities didn't release anyone. An answer needs more work, checking on what happened at ALL locations.
 
CaptnKirk

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
71
C

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Apparenty the murder and rapes that were supposed to have happened at the superdome are still unconfirmed.
 
C

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: TRUMPHENT
reply to TLC
Out of a total of 324 school buses, 70 were inoperative. That leaves 254 serviceable buses. I think that infamous photo had 200 buses in it. That wouldn't qualify for a wild underexageration such as turning 200 into 2000.

Take the sum total of school and city buses, apply the same ratio of unserviceable school buses to the city buses.

You remind me of the drowning man grasping at straws.
Click to expand...
Notice the date on the article claiming those numbers (09/05/2003). I highly doubt 70 buses were left inoperative for almost two years, or that no new buses had been added to the fleet in that time. And even considering those numbers, 254 is considerably more than 200.

But truthfully, none of that even matters since 0 of those buses were used at all.
Click to expand...



NOLA also had about 300 mass transit buses(I posted this link here somewhere). So NOLA by itself had at least 500 buses. The state of LA had about 8000 buses in its inventory. I will try to find this link.
 
I

imported_Condor

Diamond Member
Sep 22, 2004
5,425
0
0
Originally posted by: JacobJ
Originally posted by: Forsythe
We might just add that Katrina had nothing to do with global warming.
Click to expand...
Are you sure? It was the hot temperature of the water in the Gulf that supercharged Katrina to a level 5 hurricane...is the temperature of the Gulf currently affected by Global warming? I think thats a very important question and one I don't know the answer to.
Click to expand...


Once again, similar storms have happened. Notably the 1889 (or was that 1886?) storms in the Gulf.
 
B

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
A few more "Katrina myths". :roll:

WTFU people.

Red Tape

New allegations highlight the bureaucratic fumbles that delayed vital help for hurricane-hit New Orleans

WEB EXCLUSIVE
By Michael Isikoff and Mark Hosenball
Updated: 6:34 p.m. ET Sept. 14, 2005

Sept. 14, 2005 - The Bush administration is continuing to face heavy criticism over the sluggish response of federal agencies, principally the departments of Homeland Security and Defense, to the devastation caused by Hurricane Katrina.

New allegations continue to surface that offers of personnel and material assistance to New Orleans and other areas affected by the storm were held up by bureaucratic red tape. There are also indications that a proposed congressional investigation into government responses to the disaster could itself become bogged down in jurisdictional wrangles and partisan infighting.

One example of the criticisms that are still continuing to surface regarding the Bush administration?s slow response to the damage wrought by Katrina comes from Bill Richardson, governor of New Mexico and former secretary of Energy under Bill Clinton. Richardson told NEWSWEEK that on Monday, the day Katrina hit New Orleans, he immediately authorized his state National Guard commander to dispatch 400 New Mexico guardsmen to the disaster area to help out Louisiana state forces. But according to a state official, a hold-up at the Pentagon meant that the New Mexico guardsmen did not actually fly to Louisiana until Friday morning, four days after Richardson authorized them to go.

Richardson said that when he asked his guard commander to explain the delay, he was told the New Mexico troops were not being allowed to travel to the region because of ?federal paperwork,? which the National Guard bureau at the Pentagon insisted had to be completed. According to Richardson, this paperwork included various authorizations and certifications as well as ?transportation waivers.? ?I remember saying to [the New Mexico guard commander] it?s going to be too late? by the time state guardsmen reached the disaster scene, Richardson recalled.

An aide to the governor said that military officials later explained that the troops were not allowed to move until they had been assigned a specific mission to pursue once they got to the disaster region, and the mission assignment did not come through from the Pentagon until late Thursday. A spokesman for the National Guard Bureau at the Pentagon said the bureau worked ?as quickly as possible? to move troops to the disaster area as part of ?an orderly process.?

National Guard troops from other states were not the only would-be rescue and recovery officials whose movement to the disaster scene appears to have been impeded by bureaucratic fumbling. According to a knowledgeable federal source, dozens of officers from one of the Homeland Security Department?s own bureaus were also inexplicably delayed in being transported to the region. According to the source, investigators working for the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, the plainclothes detective division of Homeland Security also known as ICE, were also put on standby to fly to the Gulf Coast within hours of the hurricane making landfall. However, the orders for the ICE agents to move to the region did not come from Homeland Security headquarters until a couple of days passed, leaving investigators puzzled about the reason for the delay.

Late last week, Federal Emergency Management Agency Director Michael Brown was removed from his temporary appointment as top federal official on the scene of the disaster. On Monday, amid questions about his qualifications for the post?he had previously been a "commissioner" of the International Arabian Horse Association and had no background in emergency management?Brown resigned as FEMA chief and from his position as Homeland Security undersecretary. In a public appearance Tuesday, President Bush acknowledged the faltering response by authorities to Katrina and said: ?To the extent that the federal government didn?t fully do its job right, I take responsibility.?

Additional questions are being raised, however, as to whether Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, who is supposed to be the president?s chief adviser on responses to both natural disasters and man-made catastrophes like terror attacks, was also slow in responding to the multiple crises caused by Katrina. According to a report today by the Knight Ridder newspaper chain, under an order issued by President Bush in 2003, Chertoff, as Homeland Security chief, was in charge of managing the national response to a natural catastrophe. But Knight Ridder cited an internal government memo that indicated that Chertoff did not designate Brown as the Principal Federal Official on the disaster scene until Tuesday, Aug. 30, about 36 hours after the hurricane hit Mississippi and Louisiana. Knight Ridder also suggested that the memo implied Chertoff might have been ?confused about his lead role in disaster response.?

Senior Homeland Security officials insisted to NEWSWEEK that Knight Ridder?s reporters had misread Chertoff?s Aug. 30 memo and that the newspaper story contained ?significant inaccuracies.? According to the department?s version, on Saturday, Aug. 27, before the hurricane reached the Gulf Coast, President Bush had signed an order declaring the storm an ?incident of national significance,? thereby formally triggering the ?national response plan,? a governmentwide scheme for dealing with any kind of national catastrophe that the Bush administration prepared in response to the 9/11 attacks. According to officials, Chertoff?s Aug. 30 memo was only a reminder to other agencies that the president had triggered the plan several days earlier. Officials also said that Knight Ridder had misinterpreted the memo when they suggested that Chertoff might have been confused about his role as the leader of government responses to the disaster. The officials said that when Chertoff?s memo talked about his department?s role in ?assisting? in responding to Katrina?rather than leading the response to the storm?the memo was only referring to the department?s role in ?assisting? a White House Task Force that had been set up to consider long-term plans for helping areas affected by Katrina to recover and rebuild after the storm.

Aides to Chertoff said that the Homeland Security secretary has been concerned for some time that the department?s assorted and far-flung components did not always work well together to respond urgently to crises, and that Chertoff declared a few weeks before Katrina that one of his priorities was trying to get various agencies in his own department to work together more efficiently.

Even before it gets under way, a congressional investigation that is supposed to examine how and where government responses to Katrina failed also seems to be beset by jurisdictional and political squabbles. Rep. Peter King, a New York Republican from Long Island who is in line to become next chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee and, hence, a major player in any legislative-branch inquiry, said that several potential obstacles face congressional leaders as they try to set up their investigation.

For a start, King said, Democrats have vowed to boycott the investigation entirely. In a statement last week, House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi demanded an independent 9/11-style commission be set up to investigate the response to Katrina and said that she would not appoint any Democrats to serve on the Senate-House Katrina inquiry that the GOP leadership says it is going to set up. "The partisan proposal that Republican leaders outlined yesterday is completely unacceptable. House Democrats will not participate in a sham that is just the latest example of congressional Republicans being the foxes guarding the president's hen house,? Pelosi complained.

Republican infighting could also hamper any inquiry. King noted that while the House Homeland Security Committee has jurisdiction over the Department of Homeland Security, its agencies, and any actions or preparations it might make relating to man-made catastrophes like terror attacks, the House Transportation Committee, headed by Rep. Don Young, has jurisdiction over natural disasters. Hence, there is a possibility of jockeying between the two committees over control of the Katrina investigation, if it ever gets going. King said that as he understands it, what GOP leaders want to do is to set up a joint inquiry committee, like the panels that examined the Iran-contra affair and 9/11 background. But in this case, the Senate end of the committee would hold hearings under Senate chairmanship with some House members present, and the House members of the committee would do likewise. King said House GOP leaders have indicated they would like any congressional investigation to be completed?and to produce its final report?by Feb. 15 of next year, which doesn?t leave much time for the infighting that is currently bogging the down the whole process.
Click to expand...
 
M

mikeford

Diamond Member
Jan 27, 2001
5,671
160
106
Much confusion exists about what happened at the sports arena vs what happened at the convention center. Things were rough at the former, but apparently pure hell at the latter with serious gang activities and little or no official presence. The interview I heard with a doctor that was there said during the day it was tough, but no open activity, then at night the gangs moved on people they sized up during the day and raped or killed with impunity.

200 or 2000 buses, bottom line is that they didn't have drivers, maybe not fuel, and certainly not anybody willing to put their own butt on the line and authorize the use. That seems the story in a lot of this stuff that people waited on paperwork to make sure somebody else took the responsibility for paying.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

TRENDING THREADS

COMPANY
RESOURCES
FOLLOW
Top Bottom