The joy of religion - part xxxxxxxxx

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buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
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If theres free will there can be no entity that has knowledge of future events. If theres an entity that has knowledge of future events there can be no free will.
That is the topic of discussion. Asserting it twice doesn't make it true.
Indeed, and assumptions work both ways. If youre asking us to assume that god exists for an argument I can ask you to assume that there is no god to explore a hypothesis.
Absolutely!
To do what? Just the fact that there is knowledge (in fact just the ability to have that knowledge) would preclude free will. No action needs to be taken.
Having sufficient power to do something ISN'T a sufficient reason to do it. And asserting a third time doesn't make your statement true.
But they weren't past events when the choices were made. Thats the fundamental difference between the past and the future.
With God there is NO difference. That is the point. With us there is a difference because we are along for the ride, God isn't.
We have the past, where choices have been made and now things are fixed (you dont get to chose again what you did yesterday).
God has the future just like we have the past. Same thing.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
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That is the topic of discussion. Asserting it twice doesn't make it true.

Well to be fair I have explained it several times.


Having sufficient power to do something ISN'T a sufficient reason to do it. And asserting a third time doesn't make your statement true.

Well you havent answered the "To do what?" bit.

With God there is NO difference. That is the point. With us there is a difference because we are along for the ride, God isn't.

That redefines what the future and the past means. It still precludes free will though.

God has the future just like we have the past. Same thing.

That A) makes no sense and B) makes no difference, it still precludes free will.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
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I have proven to you that choices can be free and fixed.

oh-wait-youre-serious-let-me-laugh-even-harder_t269x200.jpg
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
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Well to be fair I have explained it several times.
And I told you why those points were wrong.
Well you havent answered the "To do what?" bit.
It doesn't matter. You have the power to do lots of things you choose not to do. So obviously having the power to do something isn't a sufficient reason to actually do it.
That redefines what the future and the past means. It still precludes free will though.
No it doesn't. If this is how you're going to continue then lets end this.
That A) makes no sense and B) makes no difference, it still precludes free will.
Shall we end this since you aren't going to make a valid argument? Asserting over and over isn't an argument.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
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And I told you why those points were wrong.

You sort of didn't address them at all, which is a different thing.

It doesn't matter. You have the power to do lots of things you choose not to do. So obviously having the power to do something isn't a sufficient reason to actually do it.

You're still totally avoiding the question there.

No it doesn't. If this is how you're going to continue then lets end this.

OK, define what the past, present and future means then.

Shall we end this since you aren't going to make a valid argument? Asserting over and over isn't an argument.

Why don't you lay out your argument? How can an outcome be unknown and known at the same time?
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
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You sort of didn't address them at all, which is a different thing.
You've not really laid out any argument at all. You're just asserting over and over.
OK, define what the past, present and future means then.
To God, there is no distinction. He sees all 3 at the same time. To us we most likely agree on what they mean. If we're assuming God can see into the future then we're already admitting He can do things we can't do (at least for the sake of discussion). Something fundamentally different than our experiences are going on. So limiting the explanations to what we experience time to be will give you invalid conclusions. You might as well not even ask the question if you refuse to give any leeway as to the perception of what time is.
Why don't you lay out your argument? How can an outcome be unknown and known at the same time?
An outcome cannot be unknown and known at the same time. Nobody is saying this.

You are the one asserting and insisting that known=not free without adequate justification.

How can something be known and free? The same way our past choices can be known and free. The fact that we've experienced those choices has absolutely no bearing on the matter. God isn't us and we aren't God.

So the question really is, why do you insist on holding to the view that a known choice equals an un-free choice?
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
33,263
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You've not really laid out any argument at all. You're just asserting over and over.

If you like I can start all over again?

To God...

Whoa Whoa Whoa... Hold on there cowboy! Make your definitions first, you can explain how and why they dont aply to certain entities.

An outcome cannot be unknown and known at the same time. Nobody is saying this.

Good, as long as we are both agreed.

You are the one asserting and insisting that known=not free without adequate justification.

OK explain how an outcome can be free and have a known outcome.

How can something be known and free? The same way our past choices can be known and free.

What did you have for tea yesterday? Can you go back and change it?
Your past choice was free when you made it, its not free now.

The fact that we've experienced those choices has absolutely no bearing on the matter. God isn't us and we aren't God.

Youre free to make that argument but its the "because... magic!" argument.


So the question really is, why do you insist on holding to the view that a known choice equals an un-free choice?

Because if the outcome of a choice is already known how can it still be a free choice?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,801
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This omnipotence omniscience free will thingi has a simple explanation. When God first created Himself, He said to Himself, Self, I'm thinking about creating light, and wondering where that will lead. I created myself with omniscience and omnipotence, and why wouldn't He, except that he found it boring. When He first contemplated let there be light, he knew immediately everything that would happen and said, why bother with this shit. Even creating billions of universes it was always the same, he knew what would happen immediately. Boring boring boring!!!! So he created time so everything wouldn't happen at once and used His omnipotence to put a clock on his omniscience such that when he wants to know what will happen he has to wait at just the same rate as you do. That way, although he knows everything that will happen, and taking time to do it, He is as surprised as you are when you decide what you are going to do.
 

Omar F1

Senior member
Sep 29, 2009
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Omar,

Have you accepted Jesus as your savior or have you rejected his FREE gift of eternal life? If not, is your salvation in doubt?
You're well aware that we do worship the lord of the Jesus, rather than one of his own messengers. (I believe he is considered the father in Christian faith)

Our salvation lies only in the hands of God himself. He made that very clear; he is the only one who could forgive or either punish his slaves.
Speaking of which, while he considered all of us his own slaves, then perhaps that could explain why he did ordered his followers to enslave disbelievers.


How do you know that your interpretation is correct when evidence is not allowed in matters of faith?
Critical-thinking is allowed to - an extent - in Islam, btw. You'd better hold the required qualifications though; deep thorough knowledge of Islamic literature, along extensive knowledge of Quran & Hadith contexts, for example. You'd also be aware of the no-invention principal in worship acts, which is a key stone in the face of anyone who would like, for example, to tailor his own prayers way or praying determined times.
To be honest, I'm not too qualified to give a completely correct opinion on that matter. Also it's possible that I didn't understand exactly the target of your question.


If God exists, he could be literally anything. If he inspired any of the worlds great religions then he is clearly a liar. There can be no other explanation for the hundreds of INTERNAL inconsistencies in each of their holy books. Do a search of Koran inconsistencies on google for example. These books have less internal consistency than the most 3rd rate hack historical writer in the modern era.
He can't be any "thing" since he is the one that created everything in our known universe. He won't possibly materialize in any substance that he had created to show us his craftsmanship.


Those inconsistencies of which you're speaking, you wouldn't believe me if I'm telling that in fact we don't consider them conflicting at all.

First, you must consider that there was a specific reason/event for many of verses (if not most) in any religious book.
Circumstances could change dramatically from one location, time, or age to another.
Mohamed for example, he held a great degree of mercy while in peaceful times. Where, as well known, he was ordered to strike with decisiveness against God's enemies during wars time.

Second, Quran wasn't released in a bulleted way of a clear and specific orders. He did it that way intentionally; a way of mercy in case you may carry that specific order and ignore another - depending on your objective judgment and extent of ability for you to carry that order. Flexibility in some orders is real and irrefutable fact, known well by any Islamic scholar at least, and you may check it down further. But, there are also those rules that the evidence to back them up is very precise and pretty clear to the degree that it's considered non-negotiable subject.

Punishment/forgiveness subject: You'd find that in one verse it mentioned that he would punish us for each and every sin we do commit. While in others and particularly Hadith; his forgiveness is without limits, especially for those who regret and resort back to their Lord.
How could we combine both? from my understanding, it's quite clear that you can head for both ways: be that fearful person who abandon sins as best as he could, or that sinful one but he keeps regretting it and asks for forgiveness in each and every time he commit such act, and trust me the God likes both kinds.

Third, there were some rules that was replaced with another while the context wasn't voided either. But those are limited in numbers.
Take for example, the controversial subject of Jihad (Islam by sword/by force) vs. non-coercion in religion choosing; both were mentioned clearly in Quran.
There is a major debate between some scholars over which one prevailed the other. Unfortunately though, I found a strong agreement that the sword verse was elected to role (obvious, if we look back into history).


Before you do that though, think about it hard. Do you really want to risk your faith for the truth? I now know the truth and it has made me a less happy person. If you really value your faith, these kinds of discussions can be very detrimental to it, especially if you are highly intelligent and logical. Many many many people have lost their faith in discussions just like this. This is the reason that I try to minimize discussions like this with my family. They are all happier than me and they all believe what their pastors tell them to believe without thinking that hard about what is actually true (none of them are critical thinkers)
Trust me I've done that already. Went through it during many stages of my life.

That's why I consider it's a must to stop at some point and make a major assessment of many aspects of our mindset and beliefs.
Problem is, I also in the same time wouldn't recommend that at all, since I well know how such painful/mind consuming process at sometimes it was. Honestly I'm mostly happy seeing people drafting away with their normal lives without questioning neither their religious believes, historical stories or politics.

Vast knowledge, knowing other sides stories, long observation process, history and objectivity are key points in order to decide your standing point.
Worst enemy of such process might be the too-quick-conclusions drawn by our own imaginations and nothing more.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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I wonder if either of you realize how ridiculous you make religion look.
actually it is you who are making atheists world wide look goofy!! It is interesting that there is no way you think you can be wrong, because in your sight if people don`t agree with you then they must be wrong.....
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
31,086
2,709
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actually it is you who are making atheists world wide look goofy!! It is interesting that there is no way you think you can be wrong, because in your sight if people don`t agree with you then they must be wrong.....


Can you image having to live with Certain Text?

Person: "I think we should have Mexican tonight"

CT: "You mean the people or the food?"

Person: "What do you think I mean?"

CT: "I don't know, you tell me! You are the one who made the suggestion!"

Person: "How, exactly, are we going to have Mexican people?"

CT: "We can invite random Mexicans to eat Mexican food with us."

Person: "I'm going to Taco Bell, by myself, and eat Mexican food".

CT: "That's just like you. Eating by yourself and not asking me what I want!"
 
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Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
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actually it is you who are making atheists world wide look goofy!! It is interesting that there is no way you think you can be wrong, because in your sight if people don`t agree with you then they must be wrong.....

He's not making atheists look "goofy" no more than you make religion look ridiculous.

Adult individuals represent themselves, and not anyone else.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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In a sense, he's right. All free-will is, is the liberty to choose between one option and another.

Knowing the outcome doesn't inhibit the freedom to choose.

Bull. Fucking. Shit.

You cannot know the outcome if it is indeterminate. "Known" and "indeterminate" are antonyms. The outcome must be determined to be known. When the outcome is determined in advance, there are no liberties, and any appearance of choice is an illusion.

^^ See that? That's an argument. Try making one. None of these other fucktards has. Let's see somebody actually defend your silly idea.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,151
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Bull. Fucking. Shit.

You cannot know the outcome if it is indeterminate. "Known" and "indeterminate" are antonyms. The outcome must be determined to be known. When the outcome is determined in advance, there are no liberties, and any appearance of choice is an illusion.

^^ See that? That's an argument. Try making one. None of these other fucktards has. Let's see somebody actually defend your silly idea.

Do you have free-will?
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,151
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I don't quite see the humor.

Because you were being evasive.

Answering "yes" would have cause you to contradict yourself. If God exists and IF that God is all-knowing, then you cannot have free-will, and I mean "YOU" personally. We have no way of proving that, so the safe answer is "I don't know".

You know that -- so you gave the easy cop-out answer.

...there's a chance that you actually genuinely don't know. But given your childish behavior here, I'm betting the former.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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Because you were being evasive.
No, I wasn't. That is the truest answer that I know.

Answering "yes" would have cause you to contradict yourself.
How the fuck would that follow, Rob?

If God exists and IF that God is all-knowing, then you cannot have free-will, and I mean "YOU" personally.
You seem to have forgotten that I do not believe a God exists, numbnuts.

We have no way of proving that, so the safe answer is "I don't know".

You know that -- so you gave the easy cop-out answer.
I love how in your world honest answers are a "cop out." Go fuck yourself long and hard, Rob.

...there's a chance that you actually genuinely don't know. But given your childish behavior here, I'm betting the former.
You are out in left field, dude.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
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No, I wasn't. That is the truest answer that I know.


How the fuck would that follow, Rob?


You seem to have forgotten that I do not believe a God exists, numbnuts.


I love how in your world honest answers are a "cop out." Go fuck yourself long and hard, Rob.


You are out in left field, dude.

Well, let me ask you this: What's the root cause of your ignorance (and I don't mean this pejoratively) of whether or not you have free-will?

Obviously, it has nothing to do with whether or not a God exists.

FWIW, I believe we all have free-will, period.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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Well, let me ask you this: What's the root cause of your ignorance (and I don't mean this pejoratively) of whether or not you have free-will?
Let me ask you this: What fucking difference does it make what I think is true about free will? I repeat: This is about the consequences of certain peoples' beliefs about their god -- a god that I do not believe exists. What *I* actually believe has nothing to do with it.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
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Whoa Whoa Whoa... Hold on there cowboy! Make your definitions first, you can explain how and why they dont aply to certain entities.
Those definitions are irrelevant to the discussion. I don't disagree with them.
OK explain how an outcome can be free and have a known outcome.
No, you make the case that free=unknown. You can't.
What did you have for tea yesterday? Can you go back and change it?
Your past choice was free when you made it, its not free now.
I hate tea. Establish your bald assertion that free=unknown.
Youre free to make that argument but its the "because... magic!" argument.
I gave you the benefit of the doubt but its becoming clear that you're just a hack. You complain about an attribute of God then I can't use other attributes of God to explain them. This is grade A hackery.

Put up or shut up. PROVE that free=unknown or admit you're just throwing assertions around like free candy.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
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Let me ask you this: What fucking difference does it make what I think is true about free will? I repeat: This is about the consequences of certain peoples' beliefs about their god -- a god that I do not believe exists. What *I* actually believe has nothing to do with it.

You don't set the rules of the discussion. If you're participating, what you believe DOES have something to do with it.

If you don't like answering questions about your beliefs, kick rocks.